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Carnemark

Opinion: is second edition a treacherous move?

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It's obviously a good business opportunity, seeing how popular the franchise is atm (thanks to the horrid tv show - yes I am that guy). It's literally the first thing I thought when the show took off, that this would be great opportunity for FFG to restart the game. On top of that, the game is showing it's age, so why not kill two birds with one stone?

Now if only FFG would follow the example of Doomtown LCG and release packs every 45 days instead of a month, to make the tempo more manageable - it would be a perfect game.

Edited by OpT1mUs

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There is usually a pause of some time between cycles (at least in my experience), so there are usually like 9-10 Packs released per year and not 12. That means there is on average more than one month between packs.

Edited by Nikotinlaus

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I'm not entirely sure it's a troll.

 

The transition from CCG to LCG did feel like a betrayal for a lot of long-time competitive CCG players. The underlying message seemed to be, "Yeah, thanks for buying all the stuff for the last 6-ish years, but you collectible card types are not the people we want to be publishing for, so we're going to remake the game to be more friendly to casual, non-collectible board game audiences. But really, you're great and you can continue to be great - just not here." 

 

(I'm not saying that's an accurate statement concerning FFG's motivations or attitudes toward their customers; I'm saying that a lot of the CCG players felt that's what they were being told.)

 

With that history of transition, I suppose some people could view the transition from LCG 1.0 to LCG 2.0 in a similar light.

 

personally don't see it that way. I think the underlying message for Second Edition was, "This is a great game and a great community, but it's getting too unwieldy as the card pool grows. It's ills cannot be fixed logically with rotation - like we are building in to all the other LCGs - so we're going to take the opportunity to redesign the game and make it better. And we want your help and input to do it." (Apparently, the playtest efforts for AGoT 2.0 were the biggest alpha and beta for an LCG FFG has ever undertaken.) I think FFG learned from their earlier mistakes and the transition to 2.0 truly was about making the game better for all, not just about making it more palatable to their core-market of casual board game players.

 

So I'm curious to know how the OP defines "betrayal" in this context.

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Not a troll, just wanted to shock you a bit and get some opinions. I´m have been playing AGOT since it became LCG, so i didn´t expercience the previous transition. My main concerns are:

- some funny mecanics as shadows dissapearing.

- The restart works against the spirit of LCG: the money you saved not playing a CCG is now wasted. This feels even worst when you see same names, same ilustration, almost same text, with small variations that make your old cards useless. This LCG format is great for reprints, so any player could fight with the same weapons. This went event worst becouse of the FFG policy, that changed a couple of times: first you needed to buy some times the same expansion for the three copies. Then reprint with the three copies. It seems a little unffair for former players the way that FFG indecision affected us.

 

PD: sorry about my english, i dont practice enough.

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Not a troll, just wanted to shock you a bit and get some opinions. I´m have been playing AGOT since it became LCG, so i didn´t expercience the previous transition. My main concerns are:

- some funny mecanics as shadows dissapearing.

- The restart works against the spirit of LCG: the money you saved not playing a CCG is now wasted. This feels even worst when you see same names, same ilustration, almost same text, with small variations that make your old cards useless. This LCG format is great for reprints, so any player could fight with the same weapons. This went event worst becouse of the FFG policy, that changed a couple of times: first you needed to buy some times the same expansion for the three copies. Then reprint with the three copies. It seems a little unffair for former players the way that FFG indecision affected us.

 

PD: sorry about my english, i dont practice enough.

 

--Shadows going away is a good thing. It streamlines the game.

--Same names? It's based on a book series. These Characters, Locations, Items, and catchphrases are iconic.

--Same illustration? Most of the artwork is brand new to the LCG.

--Same text? Almost all the unique cards in the Core set are entirely new mechanics.

 

As far as the old Chapter packs goes, it really ticks me off that people don't acknowledge that this is a process with a learning curve. It's not indecision, it's improvement. The first Chapter Pack cycles had bad distribution. They learned more about how people were buying into the game, and they improved it. Having those old chapter packs in circulation was creating extra expense, so they improved it. You're bitching about a decision that was originally made ten years ago and was corrected seven years ago.

 

They've been really really transparent about the reasons why a total game reset was a better choice than moving forward with the existing game: The bad rules in the game wouldn't be fixed, the bad mechanics (like Shadows) would take years to rotate out, and the game would probably be utterly dead in two or three more years. The buy-in cost was prohibitive, it was horrible for retail shelf space, and the game was stagnating.

 

You've been playing since it became an LCG? Great, you're even better off than I am at this point. I jumped into AGOT during the 8th Chapter pack cycle and over the next two years bought almost all of the back catalogue. I sunk a lot of money in a lot shorter of a time than you did. I don't get to use those cards anymore? Well, I wasn't using most of them very often already. Now along comes a new and improved version of the game where I wouldn't want to use those old cards anyway. I feel liberated.

 

Going forward, A) my monthly costs don't really change. It's still $15 per month for Chapter packs and $30 for the occasional Deluxe set. B) I GET A BETTER GAME.

Every one of your points is just short-sighted. I couldn't possibly disagree more. To roll in here with such a malevolent word as "treacherous" actually offends me.

 

 

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We are one year into Conquest and have one cycle, 6 packs, and the first expansion just released. 7 items in 9-10 months.

 

Yeah but isn't that because there is always a delay after the Core hits before they start the cycles? Not something you'll have in future

Edited by OpT1mUs

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We are one year into Conquest and have one cycle, 6 packs, and the first expansion just released. 7 items in 9-10 months.

 

Yeah but isn't that because there is always a delay after the Core hits before they start the cycles? Not something you'll have in future

 

 

As it happens, Netrunner has been out for 35 months. Old Hollywood dropped today. That brings us to 26 post-Core product releases in 35 months.

 

Thrones releases will be spread across nine factions, counting Neutrals. Are you really saying you can't handle a meta where each faction gets a trickle of 2-3 cards a month?

 

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Every one of your points is just short-sighted. I couldn't possibly disagree more. To roll in here with such a malevolent word as "treacherous" actually offends me.

 

I'm not sure the OP fully appreciated the negative connotation the word "treacherous" has - particularly the aspect of intentional harm. But, who knows.

 

This LCG format is great for reprints, so any player could fight with the same weapons.

 

This was actually part of the problem that needed to be fixed. People thought they had to buy the entire catalogue of cards, stretching back to 2008, in order to be "fighting with the same weapons." The fact that they never used 90% of those older cards didn't change the impression that in order to be competitive, you had to own every card ever printed or reprinted.

 

In a collectible game, people usually feel they can be competitive with less than 2 years worth of back product - and then they can collect the rest at their leisure. When FFG came up with the LCG model, I doubt the thought they'd need to keep all product in print forever, and that players would have that same "approx 2 years worth of back product to be competitive" impression. But that's not the way it happened and - as a result - it became harder and harder for new players to jump in. 

 

The ever-growing size of the card pool had also gone beyond critical mass. Long-established players were starting to drop out because it was all just too much to keep up with and consider for deckbuilding, etc. When you're losing long-time players and very few people are jumping in, your game is not healthy.

 

So FFG realized that an LCG card pool can not simply be "all cards ever printed" because of this psychological pressure people (inexplicably, to me) have to own every "tool," even though they'll never use them. Even more so, game stores started to really hate the product because of all those old packs that would sit there taking up shelf space (and hardly moving) if they were going to stock the entire line. So FFG realized the LCGs needed a rotation model for competitive, organized play. They introduced that into all of their other LCGs at the same time they announced the transition to AGoT 2.0.

 

Why didn't AGoT simply get rotation, the way that all of the others did? Well, it's because AGoT never contemplated rotation back when it started. As such, its mechanics are not compartmentalized enough to allow for rotation. For example, how well would all of the Summer and Winter effects in the later Cycles work if the Time for Ravens cycle - the second one ever printed - were rotated out? There really wasn't a good way to start limiting and/or rotating the card pool, but leaving everything in print forever wasn't an option, either.

 

When you consider the fact that AGoT v1.0 has one of the worst reputations for an overly complicated rule set of any competitive card games available (something else that kept new players away in droves), it actually made more sense for the long-term health of the game, product and community to start over with a second edition, using everything they had learned and improved in their other LCGs and applying them to the flagship product.

 

Then reprint with the three copies. It seems a little unffair for former players the way that FFG indecision affected us.

 

To me, this statement is like saying a bad thing should be left the way it is because it is unfair to the people who were affected by it that future people are not. Is it unfair to people who lived before refrigeration that our beer is cold? Is it unfair to people who lived before penicillin that far fewer people die from infections today?

 

I would challenge you to look at the changes in 2.0 as improvement, not indecision. That seems to be the far, far more common impression in the AGoT community.

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As somebody that came into First Edition rather late (2013), I am really glad they are rebooting the game. I did dump quite a bit into first edition, but I nowhere near collected every pack. In all honesty, I don't mind starting over financially either as I feel the enjoyment I had in first edition far outweighed the amount I spent only to have it reset. 

 

I have several friends who always wanted to play but were overburdened by extensive and somewhat unlimited card pool. So THANK YOU Fantasy Flight for doing this. It's going to make it a much easier and seamless way to bring in new players with a finely polished core set (unlike the original). 

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I actually have three MTG players who love aGoT enough that this will be their first LCG purchase so as to play with me. One has said that the LCG format makes it easy to jump into the game and if play is as good as the demos suggest he will be dropping MTG and picking up either SW or Netruner as well.

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A while ago I considered both AGOT and LOTR as a new player, but looking at the entire backlog the choice was easily made.

I'm just happy that I can now start playing this game as well.  :)

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Yeah, I'm like Virani.  I love the Game of Thrones books and TV series and I love the LCG format (I have all the LotR packs), but I still couldn't pull the trigger on AGOT 1.0 because of the high barrier of entry.  Now that I can get in on the ground floor for less than $100, it's an easy call.  This was a reboot they needed to do.

Edited by Teamjimby

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Yeah, I'm like Virani.  I love the Game of Thrones books and movies and I love the LCG format (I have all the LotR packs), but I still couldn't pull the trigger on AGOT 1.0 because of the high barrier of entry.  Now that I can get in on the ground floor for less than $100, it's an easy call.  This was a reboot they needed to do.

 

Ditto.

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