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Norgrath

Leia, Single Purpose and Rules Lawyering

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The RRG says

 

A non-hero figure can use only one of its actions to perform

an attack per activation.

This does not technically prevent the use of a special action that causes the figure to perform an attack. In light of this do you think it reasonable to allow Leia to give an ally multiple attacks through single purpose and Battlefield Leadership. The "same target" clause can kind of be subverted through logic if you say that "the same target" is close enough to "not different targets." Even if you don't buy that logic do you think it should follow in general?

 

Interested to hear your thoughts.

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you forgot to check attacks page 6 rules reference 

Special situations regarding attacks

• Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation.

This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”).

-- If an ability allows a figure to perform an attack outside of its activation, this attack does not count toward the limit of one attack per activation.

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That's not what this is about, I'm not saying that Leia can attack twice, but can she use the ability twice and the attack just fails (there's no reason to assume no).

 

What is Leia's text?

 

Anyways, it's not a problem for an elite Officer to Executive Order someone twice to make it attack twice.

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Found it

swi22_layout.png

 

Ooh, good question. Leia can't attack so

1. can the "then" clause activate?

2. what then would be the "same target" for the friendly figure?

 

Probably needs to send this question to FFG...

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Note that each special action may only be performed once per activation, so no doing that twice.

 

the more rules-lawyerly of you might try to suggest that Leia could be the chosen figure (it says 'a' rather than 'another'), but that would seem against the intent of the card to me.

 

daa

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Single Purpose allows you to use special actions twice, but it does nothing against the rule saying you can only perform one attack per activation and as you can't delcare an attack the "then" part of the action never happens. 

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the more rules-lawyerly of you might try to suggest that Leia could be the chosen figure (it says 'a' rather than 'another'), but that would seem against the intent of the card to me.

 

Leia CAN be the chosen figure. According to the rules figures are friendly to themselves.

 

It wouldn't do Leia any good though as she can't make more than 1 attack in any case.

Edited by Hipsu

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A figure cannot perform two actions that include attacks. As Long as Leia doesn't get the Assault Special Rule, she will not be able to use this ability twice in one activation.

Single purpose would allow her the 2 attacks by using her special action of,battlefield leadership twice.

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No, a figure cannot perform action that include an attack more than once per activation unless a card or other effect says otherwise. Single Purpose only allows her to use the same special action twice. However, since Battle Field leader includes an attack, she cannot perform it more than once.

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I see where you're coming from.

I think I see it differently.

The special action includes an attack as part of its overall effect.

Single purpose grants the use of a special action twice and doesn't exclude special actions that include attacks.

Cards trump rules.

The double attack restriction is trumped by this card.

So while I agree that under normal circumstances you can't attack twice, this card, as far as I can see, allows it if it's part of a special action. Unless I'm missing a ruling by ffg which is possible!

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Ninja'd

 

Hatting is correct.

 

It works just the same on Vader with Brutality. You can't play Single Purpose on Vader to attack 2 targets twice (4 targets). 

 

You are probably right, but would you mind explaining why this is so? 

 

Why does this command card not trump the standard rule if it includes an attack in the special action?

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Okay, most people (<3 Hipsu) have gotten distracted so I'll try to explain more clearly. The rules as written prevent the attack, not the action. Here's what happens as I see it.

 

  1. Leia Plays single purpose
  2. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  3. Leia attacks Vader
  4. Luke attacks Vader
  5. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  6. RRG prevents Leia attacking
  7. Luke attacks Vader

I view it this way because I come from a background in Dominion where partial failure is normal. It's not explicit whether this works in IA or not. 

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Okay, most people (<3 Hipsu) have gotten distracted so I'll try to explain more clearly. The rules as written prevent the attack, not the action. Here's what happens as I see it.

 

  1. Leia Plays single purpose
  2. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  3. Leia attacks Vader
  4. Luke attacks Vader
  5. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  6. RRG prevents Leia attacking
  7. Luke attacks Vader

I view it this way because I come from a background in Dominion where partial failure is normal. It's not explicit whether this works in IA or not. 

 

But the wording makes it awkward when Leia can't participate. We need FFG's word on this. Go ask and report back what they answered :) https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Edited by Hipsu

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Ninja'd

 

Hatting is correct.

 

It works just the same on Vader with Brutality. You can't play Single Purpose on Vader to attack 2 targets twice (4 targets).

 

You are probably right, but would you mind explaining why this is so? 

 

Why does this command card not trump the standard rule if it includes an attack in the special action?

 

Absolutely. This is the rule taken directly from pg 6 of the RRG under "Special Situations Regarding Attacks":

 

"Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation. This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”)."

 

So, when using "Single Purpose", you are not able to play Leia's "Battlefield Leadership" special ability twice, because you cannot attack with Leia twice. If the ability specifically stated that you can attack more than once (like "Assault") only then you can break the one attack per activation rule.

Edited by DarkJodo

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Okay, most people (<3 Hipsu) have gotten distracted so I'll try to explain more clearly. The rules as written prevent the attack, not the action. Here's what happens as I see it.

 

  1. Leia Plays single purpose
  2. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  3. Leia attacks Vader
  4. Luke attacks Vader
  5. Leia uses Battlefield Leader
  6. RRG prevents Leia attacking
  7. Luke attacks Vader

I view it this way because I come from a background in Dominion where partial failure is normal. It's not explicit whether this works in IA or not. 

 

Leia making an attack is a requirement for the "then" effect to happen. RRG states that "If the requirements cannot be met, the ability cannot be performed."

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Ninja'd

 

Hatting is correct.

 

It works just the same on Vader with Brutality. You can't play Single Purpose on Vader to attack 2 targets twice (4 targets).

 

You are probably right, but would you mind explaining why this is so? 

 

Why does this command card not trump the standard rule if it includes an attack in the special action?

 

Absolutely. This is the rule taken directly from pg 6 of the RRG under "Special Situations Regarding Attacks":

 

"Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation. This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”)."

 

So, when using "Single Purpose", you are not able to play Leia's "Battlefield Leadership" special ability twice, because you cannot attack with Leia twice. If the ability specifically stated that you can attack more than once (like "Assault") only then you can break the one attack per activation rule.

Ok great, thank you!

Now would you mind explaining to me why this rule doesn't apply:

RRG page 2:

Golden rules

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide.

Why is this command card not overriding the rule you quoted on page 6?

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The card overrides one core rule, which is the rule that you can't use the same special action twice.

It doesn't say it overrides anything else, and therefore doesn't override the limitation on one attack during activation.

So it needs to specify each core rule it overrides even if what is being overridden is contained within a single item? Edited by Reiryc

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Ninja'd

 

Hatting is correct.

 

It works just the same on Vader with Brutality. You can't play Single Purpose on Vader to attack 2 targets twice (4 targets).

 

You are probably right, but would you mind explaining why this is so? 

 

Why does this command card not trump the standard rule if it includes an attack in the special action?

 

Absolutely. This is the rule taken directly from pg 6 of the RRG under "Special Situations Regarding Attacks":

 

"Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation. This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”)."

 

So, when using "Single Purpose", you are not able to play Leia's "Battlefield Leadership" special ability twice, because you cannot attack with Leia twice. If the ability specifically stated that you can attack more than once (like "Assault") only then you can break the one attack per activation rule.

Ok great, thank you!

Now would you mind explaining to me why this rule doesn't apply:

RRG page 2:

Golden rules

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide.

Why is this command card not overriding the rule you quoted on page 6?

 

 

This rule does not apply because the card ability is not overriding the one attack per activation rule at all.

 

Assault, however, does:

 

"Assault - You may perform multiple attacks."

 

Since Leia's ability does not override the one attack per activation rule, she is forced to follow the one attack per activation rule. If Leia had Assault, she could most definitely use her ability twice. But she does not.

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Ninja'd

 

Hatting is correct.

 

It works just the same on Vader with Brutality. You can't play Single Purpose on Vader to attack 2 targets twice (4 targets).

 

You are probably right, but would you mind explaining why this is so? 

 

Why does this command card not trump the standard rule if it includes an attack in the special action?

 

Absolutely. This is the rule taken directly from pg 6 of the RRG under "Special Situations Regarding Attacks":

 

"Unlike heroes, a figure that has a Deployment card can use only one of its actions to attack per activation. This includes using special actions that involve performing one or more attacks (such as the Nexu’s “Pounce” or Darth Vader’s “Brutality”)."

 

So, when using "Single Purpose", you are not able to play Leia's "Battlefield Leadership" special ability twice, because you cannot attack with Leia twice. If the ability specifically stated that you can attack more than once (like "Assault") only then you can break the one attack per activation rule.

Ok great, thank you!

Now would you mind explaining to me why this rule doesn't apply:

RRG page 2:

Golden rules

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide.

Why is this command card not overriding the rule you quoted on page 6?

 

This rule does not apply because the card ability is not overriding the one attack per activation rule at all.

 

Assault, however, does:

 

"Assault - You may perform multiple attacks."

 

Since Leia's ability does not override the one attack per activation rule, she is forced to follow the one attack per activation rule. If Leia had Assault, she could most definitely use her ability twice. But she does not.

I see... So the card, even though it gives the ability to perform a special action twice, it doesn't give an override to all the items within that special activation. Is that the argument?

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