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Skarsnik38

PC Inquisitor Influence

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So in thinking about influence I had a funny thought. Using the inquisitor's influence costs 2 subtlety. So first, can you do this when the inquisitor is a PC? Seems like it would be fine since the main downside of pissing off your boss is pretty much the same and likely even worse since he's right there if you screw up.

Second, presuming you can, it would supposedly still cost 2 subtlety so what happens when he uses it himself? After becoming an inquisitor PC does it cost 2 subtlety every time you use your own influence? That could be a pretty big, but funny, downside to the elite advance. Always have to send lesser known teammates, or at least teammates who's reputation isn't as directly tied to the Inquisition, to get things for you to avoid eroding your group's cover as quickly.
 

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I'd say yes. The important thing to keep in mind is that there are two types of influence - an Acolyte's own influence by merit of their contacts to various individuals and organisations, as well as the Inquisitorial influence that is invoked by calling on the authority of the title.

 

That being said, a PC Inquisitor would not just "lose" all their old covert influence once they are promoted to Inquisitor. Rather, he or she would have to decide whether to call upon their established web of contacts, or use the influence the Inquisition has empowered them with.

 

As such, it might make sense to either track two scores of Influence for the PC Inquisitor, or treat his/her authority as an Inquisitor as a +X bonus to their standard Influence. This way, the Inquisitor could choose to covertly contact their old channels and thus preserve subtlety, or fall back on using the rosette and do it the "official" way.

 

Note that old contacts, especially other Inquisitors, may possibly learn of their old acquaintance's new position (depending on how careful the player is), which might affect subtlety as well. The possibilities range from zero (the contact either does not know or the request is negligible and easily concealed) to the full consequences of -2 Subtlety, but could just as well justify only a -1 Subtlety penalty if the contact knows and "expedites" the fulfilment of this request, thus possibly raising a few brows, but is still clever and loyal enough to redirect the majority of any curiosity that may be triggered by this action.

 

The RAW unfortunately seems to have put the cart before the horse, so to speak, by making high Influence a prerequisite of becoming an Inquisitor, rather than a result of it. Needless to say, this may not make a lot of sense, but depending on whether or not a GM would share this opinion, it is easily houseruled.

Edited by Lynata

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The RAW unfortunately seems to have put the cart before the horse, so to speak, by making high Influence a prerequisite of becoming an Inquisitor, rather than a result of it. Needless to say, this may not make a lot of sense, but depending on whether or not a GM would share this opinion, it is easily houseruled.

Well, I can't agree. To became Inquisitor - somebody who have unlimited power in Imperium, by the book at least - you SHOULD be influenced. You should be powerful, resultative and influenced. Then becaming an Inquisitor will be a option at all.

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It does give the implication of being able to buy your way into office, which is terribly appropriate for 40k.

 

And yeah I'd say any time you're pulling out the "Inquisition, do as I say" card you're going to take a hit to Subtlety.  A better question would be, "Who the hell uses this stupid Subtlety system?"

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I think in this case the rule is supposed to apply to NPC inquisitors, because the assumption is that you're calling on a much more influential person to get something done, which necessitates calling in someone who is, explicitly, an Inquisitor.

 

In the case of a PC inquisitor, they are using their own personal influence and are probably more able to use it subtley than an acolyte cell would be able to.

 

I disagree with Lynata on tracking separate influence for PC inquisitors. I think as the PCs grow, their influence includes both contacts who are aware of their true nature and those who aren't. If someone wants to "go loud" and use their authority as influence, then they can get a bonus or burn some points and take a subtlety hit, regardless of if they are an inquisitor or not.

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Well, I can't agree. To became Inquisitor - somebody who have unlimited power in Imperium, by the book at least - you SHOULD be influenced. You should be powerful, resultative and influenced. Then becaming an Inquisitor will be a option at all.

It does give the implication of being able to buy your way into office, which is terribly appropriate for 40k.

 

The thing is, the Inquisition doesn't necessarily care how much pull an individual has with the Adeptus Ministorum or whether Acolyte X is really good friends with a particular Space Marine Chapter or not. And that is what Influence represents - their web of contacts.

 

It is a very valuable resource, so I can indeed see some Inquisitors picking their successors that way. A universal rule, however? No -- I think a lot of Inquisitors will pick their favourites based on (subjective) talent or success rate. The Influence of those newly minted Inquisitors should come from the power of the rosette ... but the RAW does not cater to these options, and instead seems to assume that no, the Inquisition does not actually have any respected authority by itself, it's just the web of contacts people have built up during their time as Acolytes. That's what seems weird to me.

 

I disagree with Lynata on tracking separate influence for PC inquisitors. I think as the PCs grow, their influence includes both contacts who are aware of their true nature and those who aren't. If someone wants to "go loud" and use their authority as influence, then they can get a bonus or burn some points and take a subtlety hit, regardless of if they are an inquisitor or not.

 

Well, that's why I mentioned a +X bonus as an alternative way. I actually think Influence ought to be tracked not as a single value anyways, but in the form of many related stats -- but I agree that it's, sadly, probably too much bookkeeping, even though it'd make for more diversity between the characters by better tracking everyone's personal network. :/

 

I still can't really agree to the idea of an Inquisitor not always having more authority than an Acolyte by the sheer power of the rosette, but you make a good point and one could say that both the Inquisitor as well as the Acolyte are falling back on the same decree of "ultimate authority" that the Inquisition uses as a whole, so I guess it's really just a matter of perspective.

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It is a very valuable resource, so I can indeed see some Inquisitors picking their successors that way. A universal rule, however? No -- I think a lot of Inquisitors will pick their favourites based on (subjective) talent or success rate. The Influence of those newly minted Inquisitors should come from the power of the rosette ... but the RAW does not cater to these options, and instead seems to assume that no, the Inquisition does not actually have any respected authority by itself, it's just the web of contacts people have built up during their time as Acolytes. That's what seems weird to me.

 

 

...and this is something I can't agree. :)
There is no Inquisitor who gain his Influence from the rosette. If he have no influence by his own right he can be more useful as interrogator or even acolyte.
I believe you're taking Influence meaning too narrow. Rulebook says: "Influence is a characteristic, and like other characteristics it is measured on a scale from 0–100. Influence represents an Acolyte’s reputation, connections, resources, and other factors that allow him to obtain desired results from the citizens and institutions of the Imperium." This is not just personal contact network, it's a stat meaning your general weight in Imperial society. And no Inquisitor can emerge without this weight.

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And no Inquisitor can emerge without this weight.

 

Sure they can. It just takes 1-3 other Inquisitors to say so. ;)

 

Inquisitors tend to travel quite a lot, which means they are bound to move outside their personal web of contacts (their original Influence score). Are we honestly to believe that an Inquisitor who shows up at a Planetary Governor's doorstep, wielding their rosette, would not immediately acquire (local) Influence by doing so? Because as per the RAW, stuff like requisitioning said Governor's PDF or items from the local armoury and other requests would all have to occur by Influence rolls. Yet how exactly would the Inquisitor's personal past have any relevance here when nobody knows them?

 

They've got a rosette, that is what counts. The Inquisition isn't just a random assembly of influential men and women -- it is an institution that, by Imperial decree, provides anyone identifying themselves as an Inquisitor an amount of influence that far outstrips the few people they know personally.

 

As such, I have to say that for a galaxy that supposedly suffers from interstellar travel and communication being heavily limited, this use Influence certainly makes it sound as if the entire Imperium is connected by Skullbook.

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It does give the implication of being able to buy your way into office, which is terribly appropriate for 40k.

 

And yeah I'd say any time you're pulling out the "Inquisition, do as I say" card you're going to take a hit to Subtlety.  A better question would be, "Who the hell uses this stupid Subtlety system?"

Even if you don't like the specifics of the subtlety system its still very vaguely a good thing to keep in mind. The cult being pursued by the ornate carapace wearing, plasma gun wielding acolytes flashing their rosette at everyone they meet should be a lot harder to find and/or be a lot better prepared when they are found than the cult being pursued by shadows.

 

The thing is, the Inquisition doesn't necessarily care how much pull an individual has with the Adeptus Ministorum or whether Acolyte X is really good friends with a particular Space Marine Chapter or not. And that is what Influence represents - their web of contacts.

 

It is a very valuable resource, so I can indeed see some Inquisitors picking their successors that way. A universal rule, however? No -- I think a lot of Inquisitors will pick their favourites based on (subjective) talent or success rate. The Influence of those newly minted Inquisitors should come from the power of the rosette ... but the RAW does not cater to these options, and instead seems to assume that no, the Inquisition does not actually have any respected authority by itself, it's just the web of contacts people have built up during their time as Acolytes. That's what seems weird to me.

At the same time, Influence represents successes, so an inquisitor who promotes people who get the job done would also probably go for the high influence character. Overall I agree though, I think it should have been a recommendation, like 35 willpower for mystics, rather than a hard requirement.

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At the same time, Influence represents successes, so an inquisitor who promotes people who get the job done would also probably go for the high influence character. 

 

Ehh ... most of the time, maybe, but I did mention it being one possible characteristic for an Inquisitor to go by. I just don't like it to be the one-and-all.

 

Inquisitors, at least from my understanding, are often very capricious people and often differ from one another in their methods, their opinions, their values. All of this will reflect in their choice of successor, so whilst some will acknowledge and compliment an Acolyte's web of contacts as a valuable resource and proof of them having successfully grasped what is (in their subjective opinion) the most important tool of an Inquisitor, another may sponsor an Acolyte because they share the militant approach, strong faithfulness, a complete lack of morals in pursuit of a mission, or .. hell, just because they fancy them as a lover.

 

Dark Heresy places a lot of focus on Inquisitorial investigation as a covert activity, yet there is also the "firebrand" approach where Inquisitors just waltz through the galaxy on their giant walking thrones, burning entire cities for heresy. Both are viable ways to be an Inquisitor. Both also differ in how important Influence would be for them.

 

tl;dr: the Inquisition has no HR department with uniform standards, and different Inquisitors will look for different things in an Acolyte

 

We can always just agree that it is a matter of interpretation, though. :D

Edited by Lynata

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Sure they can. It just takes 1-3 other Inquisitors to say so.  ;)

 

 

Well, as I know by background, they don't do so. Maybe this is because the Inquisition isn't just a random assembly of influential men and women -- it is an institution that, by Imperial decree, provides anyone identifying themselves as an Inquisitor an amount of influence that far outstrips the few people they know personally. ;)
 
Are we honestly to believe that an Inquisitor who shows up at a Planetary Governor's doorstep, wielding their rosette, would not immediately acquire (local) Influence by doing so?

 

Of course he would not. Such as Imperial Guardsman who wield best-craftsmanship lasgun would not immediatly aquire "local ballistic skill" but bonus to his rolls.

It's simple to see - Influence is a stat; is Inquisitor Influence changed just because he became one? Will he have his orders complete if he haven't rosette and nobody here knows him?

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Well, as I know by background, they don't do so. Maybe this is because the Inquisition isn't just a random assembly of influential men and women -- it is an institution that, by Imperial decree, provides anyone identifying themselves as an Inquisitor an amount of influence that far outstrips the few people they know personally. ;)

 

We might just be going by different sources here -- that's always a risk in this franchise. My own perspective is shaped by GW's own material over that of any licensed publications:

 

"It normally requires the consent of three Inquisitors or an Inquisitor Lord to pass on the full powers of an Inquisitor and grant an Inquisitorial Seal, though there have been occasions when this has not been necessary, or the immediate situation has dictated that the apprentice take on full Inquisitorial responsibilities immediately."

-- d100 Inquisitor, Thorian Sourcebook

 

The same source also mentions how inconsistent criteria for recruitment and promotion are from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. The only things that matter are loyalty, general performance, intelligence and determination - and even these are merely common qualities rather than a rule that allows for no exceptions.

 

The important thing to keep in mind (at least following my understanding of how the Inquisition operates) is that its internal workings are very different from how it presents itself to outsiders. Within, the Inquisition functions like an extended family, with friends and allies as well as bitter rivalries and deadly feuds. This does not change that to an outsider - from the lowly Guardsman on sentry duty all the way up to a Planetary Governor - they only see the Inquisitorial rosette and take it as the symbol of an organisation granted supreme authority by the God-Emperor.

 

It's simple to see - Influence is a stat; is Inquisitor Influence changed just because he became one? Will he have his orders complete if he haven't rosette and nobody here knows him?

 

That's the thing - if the Inquisitor is not identified as such, he or she would indeed have to fall back on their personal web of contacts. So why does becoming an Inquisitor have an Influence requirement? If it has nothing to do with how the Inquisitor exercises their authority, the only alternative would be that their sponsor used it as a "benchmark" to evaluate the student's adequacy.

 

Yet this brings us back to the above - my criticism that any and all Inquisitors would look for an Acolyte's personal web of contacts as the most important requirement.

 

And it doesn't explain why the group has to take a penalty to their Subtlety when invoking the Inquisitor's Influence. After all, he or she would be using only their old web of contacts, just like the Acolytes, rather than calling upon the authority of being an Inquisitor, no?

 

Something doesn't add up. ;)

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The same source also mentions how inconsistent criteria for recruitment and promotion are from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. The only things that matter are loyalty, general performance, intelligence and determination - and even these are merely common qualities rather than a rule that allows for no exceptions.

 

 

Of course. There is one law only for Inquisitor - Emperor Own Will, and he hadn't known for clear wills for last 10K years.
But there are some kind of customs. You don't give rosette to some promising vagabond just because you can, and if you do (because nobody can forbid you really) you will meet problems, your protege will be stripped from his newfound powers and your own destiny will be questioned.
Or not, if you're very influenced yourself.
Well, in classical influenced extendend family (where family matters; and it is matters when you're speaking about Inquisition!) you just don't bring new members without consulting with another family members. There is no any law that oblige you to do so, you just don't.
We're not looking laws here, but such customs.
 
That's the thing - if the Inquisitor is not identified as such, he or she would indeed have to fall back on their personal web of contacts. So why does becoming an Inquisitor have an Influence requirement?

 

Well, because if you haven't any recognized personal powers you're not good for Inquisitor rosette?

By the way, that's only real defence known for dealing with fake rosettes. If you can be some unfamous jerk and wield rosette, then there will be hordes of conmans using fake rosettes to gain unlimited and unquestioned power.

 

 

Yet this brings us back to the above - my criticism that any and all Inquisitors would look for an Acolyte's personal web of contacts as the most important requirement.

 

 

Well, that's simple - Influence ISN'T Acolyte's personal web of contacts. It's some kind of mixing multifactoral reputation. You can have no contacts at all, but everybody who is matters know (well, when you have Influence big enough) that you're that kind of guy who you don't want to mess with. That's not scullnet as is (but I like this kind of image), it's something called "sarafan radio" in Russia. Bureaucratic systems have this miraculous kind of superlightspeed translation of information who is able to be messed, and who better be obliged at place.
 
If it has nothing to do with how the Inquisitor exercises their authority, the only alternative would be that their sponsor used it as a "benchmark" to evaluate the student's adequacy.

 

But of course. Influence is some kind of social weight. Are you a serious business or not? Are you "promising student" (who can have very good potential) or you became bigger that Acolyte position? 
 

 

And it doesn't explain why the group has to take a penalty to their Subtlety when invoking the Inquisitor's Influence. After all, he or she would be using only their old web of contacts, just like the Acolytes, rather than calling upon the authority of being an Inquisitor, no?

 

 

Because he or she using his name and possibilities, and it's great deal. Because he have Influence 75+, and this is big figure in political patterns of the sector. Anybody who is looking and knowing where to look will notice - hey, That Big Guy (no matter in what right - maybe it's That Big Psyker Boss or That Big Guard Master or That Big Heresy Burner - if you're Inquisitor, you're Big Guy, no matter using you rosette for that particular event or not!) personally intrested in that no-so-big guys (or that not-so-big deal). Looks like it can be useful to use attention!
There is some kind of anecdote. When one my acquaintance served in Soviet Army, he meets some difficulties. He was not healthy, and Soviet Army service was... let's say not everybody lived to tell the tale. And when he wrote letters home he complained. His mother asked her friend, and he asked some Moscow general, who just gave a query about that private health.
General didn't order anybody anything. He forgot about it in the end of week. But that private became some kind of celebrity in his unit, because GENERAL SO-AND-SO HIMSELF wondering his health.

There is intresting issue for "high Subtelty-high Influence" situations, though.

Edited by Aenno

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We're not looking laws here, but such customs.

 

Indeed - and these customs, at least as explained in the original material, say nothing that would justify making high Influence a basic requirement. You do make a good point about Influence not just representing personal contacts but also reputation, but (a) with the Inquisition being a secret organisation this is arguably something that will not only apply in very specific circumstances, and (b) it still doesn't validate Influence as a 100% requirement.

 

 Well, because if you haven't any recognized personal powers you're not good for Inquisitor rosette?

 

That is entirely up to the opinion and personal preferences of the Inquisitor sponsoring you, and for all we know, he or she could give a grot's ass about this stuff. Indeed, by your interpretation, a high Influence score could actually disqualify someone from becoming an Inquisitor because in the opinion of their master they have become too famous.

 

Perhaps this is a consequence of Influence being interpreted as so many different things at once. It can be useful acquaintances, it can be reputation within the Inquisition, it can be one's natural aptitude when investigating on the streets, it can be official support from Imperial Adepta, ...

 

I suppose this way, the high Aptitude can be explained by tailoring it to the individual character. Still doesn't feel right, though. Both because I continue to believe that Influence should be tracked in more detail (splitting it up into different but mechanically related values), but also as I'm still not convinced that Influence can not also simply be a product of the rosette.

 

Because most of the time, that Planetary Governor that is lending you his/her PDF troopers - something you would have to roll Influence for - does not do so because the two of you are buddies, or because you are somehow famous throughout the sector. But simply because you're an Inquisitor.

 

And exercising this right semi-publicly ... this is what costs you Subtlety.

 

And the only thing that differentiates a 75+ Influence Acolyte from a 75+ Influence Inquisitor.

 

Ergo it must be the rosette. Or the rules are quite simply wrong and you shouldn't lose any Subtlety. Take your pick.

 

By the way, that's only real defence known for dealing with fake rosettes. If you can be some unfamous jerk and wield rosette, then there will be hordes of conmans using fake rosettes to gain unlimited and unquestioned power.

 

Rosettes are rather difficult to fake. But .. are you really saying that simply using a famous name when introducing yourself is more secure? Or is your Inquisitor so well known that everyone would recognise them by their face? Because either doesn't sound right. ;)

Edited by Lynata

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It does give the implication of being able to buy your way into office, which is terribly appropriate for 40k.

 

And yeah I'd say any time you're pulling out the "Inquisition, do as I say" card you're going to take a hit to Subtlety.  A better question would be, "Who the hell uses this stupid Subtlety system?"

Even if you don't like the specifics of the subtlety system its still very vaguely a good thing to keep in mind. The cult being pursued by the ornate carapace wearing, plasma gun wielding acolytes flashing their rosette at everyone they meet should be a lot harder to find and/or be a lot better prepared when they are found than the cult being pursued by shadows.

 

 

Any GM worth their salt was doing that already, DH2 just adds another number for the GM to track and very little means to interpret or use it. Which brings me back to my original question - if GMs are doing this anyway, who is actually using this 'system'?

 

What does +/-2 subtlety even mean? It's just a roundabout way to get the GM to think about 'how does this action affect the narrative?' which is redundant if you are a good GM.

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Indeed - and these customs, at least as explained in the original material, say nothing that would justify making high Influence a basic requirement. You do make a good point about Influence not just representing personal contacts but also reputation, but (a) with the Inquisition being a secret organisation this is arguably something that will not only apply in very specific circumstances, and (b) it still doesn't validate Influence as a 100% requirement.

 

Influence marks something more... vague that just reputation. It's something about how "big" you are counted. If you're doing good work for Inquisition, your reputation rises up.

In the beginnig you're almost nothing. Nobody knows you. But your Inquisitor have seen some potential in you. (Or he just needed cannon folder).

When you're starting to do Inquisitional work, you're starting to be a theme for Big Guys Speaking. Maybe it's only Inquisitoral speaking, but Inquisitors ARE Big Guys. And there is something like "hey, my senior astropath speaking about something he heard two Inquisitors arguing about that guy! I believe I should watch him."

So when you're nothing, you don't have rosette. You can have great potential, and maybe your Inquisitor sees it in you, but until you proved your worth you are acolyte or Throne Agent. And when you're climbing this ladder and proving yourself you gaining Influence; gaining Influence IS a system way to show you're climbing up. HOW you do it... no matter. You can create complex networks of contacts or befriend people in high places or just doing your hard work. But you should be somebody. 

Or let me put it such way: your Inquisitor can't see your charsheet to know is you good or not. He give you work, if you're good in this your gain Influence, when you gain 75 ifl - you proved yourself enough. And customs (this can be read all over background, yeah?) dictates that non-proved don't became Inquisitor. Not non-connected but non-proved.

If you, as master, count your character proved himself enough, well, you should give him enough Influence. Because it's stat that means exactly this.

 

Because most of the time, that Planetary Governor that is lending you his/her PDF troopers - something you would have to roll Influence for - does not do so because the two of you are buddies, or because you are somehow famous throughout the sector. But simply becauseyou're an Inquisitor.

 

Yes. When you flash your rosette you have any Influence roll autopassed. But if you're nothing without rosette you shouldn't have it. 

And Influence stat is a mechanical value how far you are from "nothing", something about "how long your personal record is".

 

Or is your Inquisitor so well known that everyone would recognise them by their face?

 

Not everyone but everyone who counted. You will not fake rosette, that is hard and VERY dangerous, to fool some peasant or simple hiver. But it's perfect tool to use in high-reward options, when I'm trying to made Governor to give me infantry and ships or made a fraud billions. 

If I can offer an example from another setting... there is Mass Effect franchise, and there are Spectres there. Main hero, of course, have final Spectre authority, but also he is commander of Alliance Navy with very good record, and this record IS something that pulls him there.

So a lot of people - if they are, let's say, Spectre-scaled - knows who Shepard is and what rights he have. And some people can refuse to believe (and meet the consecquences).

This kind of problem was raised in Lensman Saga, but there was Arisia there; Lenses was strictly individual and everybody knows that if somebody wield Lens, he is worthy of it. To be honest I believe Inquisition is some kind of reference/catire/joke to Grey Lensman.

 

Any GM worth their salt was doing that already, DH2 just adds another number for the GM to track and very little means to interpret or use it. Which brings me back to my original question - if GMs are doing this anyway, who is actually using this 'system'?

 

 

It just gives some mechanical options to differ social rules by your cadre reputation. 
Edited by Aenno

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Yes. When you flash your rosette you have any Influence roll autopassed. 

 

So why do you still have to roll on the Inquisitor's Influence and take the penalty to Subtlety? Either the action is secret or it isn't.

 

And if you're saying that it's just because the Inquisitor is too famous even though they are just using their reputation and web of contacts, why don't normal Acolytes at 75+ Influence take the penalty as well?

 

Like I said, the rules don't add up here.

 

If I can offer an example from another setting... there is Mass Effect franchise, and there are Spectres there. Main hero, of course, have final Spectre authority, but also he is commander of Alliance Navy with very good record, and this record IS something that pulls him there.

So a lot of people - if they are, let's say, Spectre-scaled - knows who Shepard is and what rights he have. And some people can refuse to believe (and meet the consecquences).

 

I'd say this is a good anti-example, actually. Because even though Shepard is classified as N7 within the Systems Alliance, people outside this space don't give a varren's ass about her military rank. What matters is Spectre authorisation. And even this is only valid in Citadel space.

 

Shepard would certainly have an Influence score as well, especially because not everyone in the galaxy cares about what the Council says. Yet in Mass Effect, an extremely high Influence score also wouldn't be a requirement to become a Spectre. You're submitted by your government, and the Council checks your records. Influence could work within the boundaries of your own military by people pulling strings for you (like Anderson), but in the end, this is more about the personal connection between comrades-in-arms, just like it can exist between Acolyte and Inquisitor, rather than consciously building up an external reputation or a network of contacts to (ab)use to further your career.

 

After all, Shepard faced a lot of internal resistance against the Spectre appointment and would have failed had it not been for Anderson's support. I guess her Influence score was not very high at the start of ME1. ;)

Edited by Lynata

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So why do you still have to roll on the Inquisitor's Influence and take the penalty to Subtlety? Either the action is secret or it isn't.

Sorry? Any flashing of rosette definitly NOT sublte. Just such. So I believe if you're flashing rosette you SHOULD NOT roll your influence but, of course, you have penalty to Subtlety.
 

 

And if you're saying that it's just because the Inquisitor is too famous even though they are just using their reputation and web of contacts, why don't normal Acolytes at 75+ Influence take the penalty as well?

As I said before "There is intresting issue for "high Subtelty-high Influence" situations, though." But there is ways to exploit your high Influence without really flashing rosette. Maybe you're acting through proxies that used proxies that used proxies (Inquisitor asks/orders his agent to use his connections to ask some gang to attack some house that Inquisitor wanted to be burned even he could just flash rosette and make orbital bombardment there). Or maybe you're using alter egos who haven't your influence but don't collect attention of the full sector.

 

I'd say this is a good anti-example, actually. Because even though Shepard is classified as N7 within the Systems Alliance, people outside this space don't give a varren's ass about her military rank. What matters is Spectre authorisation. And even this is only valid in Citadel space.

That's not military rank as is. On the start of ME a lot of people knows and respects Shepard, if you're playing and paing attention to this kind of things. Citadel secretary knows you - and she tells she know everybody who matters. Sha'ira knows you. General Septimus knows you. Citadel Security knows you. Citadel Council knows you, and you have authorisation to enter Tower freely - and a lot of Citadel residents never had a chance to get there even by appointment. I don't even speak about humans - any political connected human knows you. Even Nihlus knows you and supposed you can be a good Specter. It isn't a rank (but rank can have it's contribution if your military branch is significant enough), isn't medals (but they CAN contribute too) and not record, and that's all by bits. Length of article about you in encyclopedia. Maybe it's highly classified encyclopedia.

Shepard at the start of first ME have good Influence and Peer (Alliance Navy). Well, tbh he is not influenced enough (and he supposed to gain Influence by joint operation with Nihlus), but he got some more for Citadel prologue.

Edited by Aenno

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Sorry? Any flashing of rosette definitly NOT sublte. Just such. So I believe if you're flashing rosette you SHOULD NOT roll your influence but, of course, you have penalty to Subtlety.

 

See, that would make sense. But it's also against the rules in the book.

 

On the start of ME a lot of people knows and respects Shepard, if you're playing and paing attention to this kind of things.

 

Did you pick the War Hero background? I for one (Sole Survivor) really don't recall being influential with people until I actually started to do things - above the normal "everyone is willing to talk to you" mechanics of an RPG, anyways. There was Sha'ira, but she's pretty much a mystic, so who knows how she picks her people.

 

That said, Shepard is the first human Spectre, and has been in the news as such, so of course the majority of humans would at least know him/her, which explains why C-Sec is letting you in. Still, as we can see in the opening cinematic, this appointment did not go through without doubts, and Udina keeps being a thorn in your side. Fortunately, Shep is gaining in Influence pretty quickly once you begin fixing various problems all over the galaxy.

 

I guess the media exposure as the first human Spectre could be regarded as Influence, too, but it's pretty limited in scope. In fact, the way humans are pushing this almost gets you booted from the program as more non-humans become aware of how quickly mankind is gaining a foothold in Citadel politics, so this is something where your reputation - at least at the beginning - is working against you.

 

This is actually something I'm missing from DH2 Influence mechanics: that it ought to work differently depending on who you talk to. I keep thinking it'd be more interesting if you had several stats for it, just like Skills, depending on with whom exactly you actually have said Influence. But that is something for another topic, I suppose.

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As an acolyte, yeah, you can call on the inquisitor's influence, and it hits your subtlety because you're invoking something beyond yourself.  You establish the link that threatens the warband.

 

Once you are an inquisitor, you can no longer do this.  You no longer have a superior to lean on, you are 'the tops' in terms of what the inquisition can offer.  Using your influence doesn't necessarily hit your subtlety, but your subtlety is still dictated by your actions.  If you call in 200 mercenaries to take out a cult, your subtlety is likely to drop.

 

In terms of allowing players to use the influence of a PC inquisitor, that feels like a gentleman's agreement sort of thing.  It ought to hit subtlety when this is done, and it will be up to the Inquisitor player to cover up when other people name drop him.  Naturally, this may result in some internal friction, and hiring bounty hunters only costs so much Influence...

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You establish the link that threatens the warband.

 

Do you mean literally, as in interstellar (astropathic) communications that could be detected by an enemy, or metaphorically, as in making a connection between your names and the one of your master?

 

The former might make sense (though it's still a stretch by being a consistent penalty rather than a risk - but we could chalk it up to abstraction), but the latter means that Subtlety should always go down as soon as the Inquisitor does anything. After all, if their name/reputation is such that it affects the Subtlety of an investigation, it does not matter whether they are doing something for an Acolyte cell or themselves.

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You establish the link that threatens the warband.

 

Do you mean literally, as in interstellar (astropathic) communications that could be detected by an enemy, or metaphorically, as in making a connection between your names and the one of your master?

 

 

Metaphor.

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See, that would make sense. But it's also against the rules in the book.

 

 

As I know rules don't describe situation where Inquisitor using his Rosette.
 

 

Did you pick the War Hero background? I for one (Sole Survivor) really don't recall being influential with people until I actually started to do things - above the normal "everyone is willing to talk to you" mechanics of an RPG, anyways. There was Sha'ira, but she's pretty much a mystic, so who knows how she picks her people.

 

 

I had 6 different heroes, tbh (yes, I like this game). So I did Sole Survivor as well, but my favorite is Ruthless. And no, it isn't changing, but people seldom notice.
You have free acess to Tower even before you have Spectre status. Everybody upper bartender level knows you, Shadow Broker offers his information to you through Barla Von (not to some another specter). Citadel civilian stuff knows who you are. Journalists tries to meet you (Emily Wong - just before Spectre status) and so on. I don't even speaking about Shepard in 2nd or 3rd game or Shepard in the late first game, no - just Citadel prologue.
And this is how influence works. Shepard is someone who is matters.

 

After all, if their name/reputation is such that it affects the Subtlety of an investigation, it does not matter whether they are doing something for an Acolyte cell or themselves.

 

Of course. Inquisitors are high-profile targets, that's the point to have proxies.

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As I know rules don't describe situation where Inquisitor using his Rosette.

 

Well, then explain the drop in Subtlety. What exactly is the difference between a 75+ Influence Acolyte and a 75+ Influence Inquisitor that only help from the latter would risk the warband's activities being uncovered?

 

You have free acess to Tower even before you have Spectre status. Everybody upper bartender level knows you, Shadow Broker offers his information to you through Barla Von (not to some another specter). Citadel civilian stuff knows who you are. Journalists tries to meet you (Emily Wong - just before Spectre status) and so on. I don't even speaking about Shepard in 2nd or 3rd game or Shepard in the late first game, no - just Citadel prologue.

And this is how influence works. Shepard is someone who is matters.

 

That's not really Influence in the DH sense - that is being in the news and a champion of your people. People knowing that you've been nominated to become the first human Spectre is no different from actually being one. In fact, it is better, for you ought to have more pull with your people as long as you are still in the news rather than already having faded away into "daily life".

 

Though as said previously, it would work like DH Influence if you apply it to other humans, but not the non-humans. Because at that point in the story, those still don't care about you, because you haven't done anything. At the start of the game, Shepard is someone who matters only for other humans, and even there only some and not all.

 

Of course. Inquisitors are high-profile targets, that's the point to have proxies.

 

That would explain the drop in Subtlety, but it postulates that all Inquisitors are semi-public figures who are not operating from secrecy, which is a pretty drastic contrast to the work of the Acolyte warband. Personally, I doubt that random Planetary Governors or generals of the Imperial Guard are "in the know" about who is an Inquisitor and who isn't, but that is admittedly a matter of interpretation.

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New related interesting question I just thought of: Does Influence cap at 100? It is a characteristic now which are stated to be between 0-100 but influence in 1st ed didn't cap and neither do things like profit factor. Seems like its probably not intended to cap but by specifically making it a characteristic it had that effect.

 

At the same time, Influence represents successes, so an inquisitor who promotes people who get the job done would also probably go for the high influence character. 

 

Ehh ... most of the time, maybe, but I did mention it being one possible characteristic for an Inquisitor to go by. I just don't like it to be the one-and-all.

 

Inquisitors, at least from my understanding, are often very capricious people and often differ from one another in their methods, their opinions, their values. All of this will reflect in their choice of successor, so whilst some will acknowledge and compliment an Acolyte's web of contacts as a valuable resource and proof of them having successfully grasped what is (in their subjective opinion) the most important tool of an Inquisitor, another may sponsor an Acolyte because they share the militant approach, strong faithfulness, a complete lack of morals in pursuit of a mission, or .. hell, just because they fancy them as a lover.

 

Dark Heresy places a lot of focus on Inquisitorial investigation as a covert activity, yet there is also the "firebrand" approach where Inquisitors just waltz through the galaxy on their giant walking thrones, burning entire cities for heresy. Both are viable ways to be an Inquisitor. Both also differ in how important Influence would be for them.

 

tl;dr: the Inquisition has no HR department with uniform standards, and different Inquisitors will look for different things in an Acolyte

 

We can always just agree that it is a matter of interpretation, though. :D

 

I actually mostly agree with you. I also don't think it should be a requirement. If it just recommended it I think it would be fine. I was mostly just pointing out that both an inquisitor that is looking at his students resources/contacts and an inquisitor looking at his students successes would both essentially be looking at influence. But you are right inquisitors are a strange mixed bunch so there is no telling what one might look at.

Some Inquisitors may in fact have very low influence if they mostly work independently and in the shadows. I could easily see an assassin type inquisitor like that.

At the same time part of the problem with being an inquisitor with low influence is that there then is no mechanic for flashing the rosette that works properly as that's still based on influence. So you are probably right that these problems come from influence representing a few too many things at once.

I'm not even sure if having a guard squad pledge themselves to you would give influence since they would be a resource adding to your network or cost influence because you "requisitioned" them and need to pay to maintain them.

 

 

Sure they can. It just takes 1-3 other Inquisitors to say so.  ;)

 
Well, as I know by background, they don't do so. Maybe this is because the Inquisition isn't just a random assembly of influential men and women -- it is an institution that, by Imperial decree, provides anyone identifying themselves as an Inquisitor an amount of influence that far outstrips the few people they know personally. ;)

I believe I've seen that 1-3 inquisitors or inquisitor lord bit before as well. It may have even been mentioned somewhere in the 1st ed book. It would definitely make sense in a sector like Calixis but not in Askellon. There may not even be that many inquisitors in Askellon.

 

Any GM worth their salt was doing that already, DH2 just adds another number for the GM to track and very little means to interpret or use it. Which brings me back to my original question - if GMs are doing this anyway, who is actually using this 'system'?

 

What does +/-2 subtlety even mean? It's just a roundabout way to get the GM to think about 'how does this action affect the narrative?' which is redundant if you are a good GM.

 

New GMs perhaps or ones who might find it useful to have a vague metric to add to their notes to help keep track of how their group has been acting? I'm mostly playing devils advocate here. I'd probably not use it much if I were GMing a game either to be honest.

 

This is actually something I'm missing from DH2 Influence mechanics: that it ought to work differently depending on who you talk to. I keep thinking it'd be more interesting if you had several stats for it, just like Skills, depending on with whom exactly you actually have said Influence. But that is something for another topic, I suppose.

Peer and enemy talents do this to some extent.

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