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Zethnar

Disappointed yet interested.

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I gotta say that while this new card game sounds cool, I'm kinda disappointed that FFG aren't reprinting the original Warhammer Quest, especially given how often they say "everyone loves the old Warhammer Quest" in their article and their video.  I understand that they don't want to cannibalize their own market, they already have both Descent and Imperial Assault on shelves. However it seems to me that if you're going to spend a good portion of your article and half your video talking about how awesome the game you aren't reprinting is, maybe you should be reprinting that game.  Plus it's something might actually draw in those of us who are looking for a cooperative dungeon crawl experience rather than an adversarial game.

 

Now, having said that I do like the look of this new game, it's the kind of thing that's right up my alley.  I'll definitely be checking it out after it's released.

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FFG simply does not have the assets to do WHQ as it was.

 

Meanwhile, GW can brush off folks that ask about WHQ by saying FFG is doing something about it.

 

Therefore, those folks who wanted a second edition of WHQ are simply SOL.

 

Sorry folks.

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FFG can't remake GW's Warhammer miniatures games.  They can only make board or card game adaptations.

 

It's not really a miniatures game, it's a game that has miniatures.  Also, given the fact that GW has dumped the Old World in favor of Age of Sigmar I would think any miniatures produced for use in a boardgame based around the Old World would in no way impact their possible sales of miniatures for their tabletop wargames (it seems like they've done pretty well impacting sales of miniatures for their wargames all on their own). Plus it wouldn't be hard for FFG to go to GW and ask for permission to reprint the game.

 

FFG simply does not have the assets to do WHQ as it was.

 

Meanwhile, GW can brush off folks that ask about WHQ by saying FFG is doing something about it.

 

Therefore, those folks who wanted a second edition of WHQ are simply SOL.

 

Sorry folks.

 

Saying "FFG does not have the assets" is ridiculous.  They would build the assets to a WHQ reprint if that is what they were going to do.  The line spouted by GW for years is a complete joke given that when they reprinted Space Hulk they did a complete re-design of all the game elements from the miniatures all the way down to the tokens.  It doesn't matter that they don't have the assets because they wouldn't USE the assets.

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Zethnar, I am sorry, but Warhammer Quest (WHQ) is a toy soldier heavy game that FFG has not shown the inclination and/or assets to make such a game - ever.

To produce the original version or a new edition of WHQ, FFG would have to be able to produce the equivalent of most of GW's 1995 WFB line of fantasy toy soldiers - all of the "bad guy" armies minus their war machines.

 

That would be an investment of extraordinary size for a company that is a game company like FFG rather than a toy soldier company like GW.

Most folks, especially on the Western side of the Pond, just do not get it that GW is not a game company.

GW simply makes the "occasional" game that sells what they really produce - toy soldiers.

 

WHQ done correctly requires the player to not collect just one or two armies WFB armies (minus war machines), but six armies (Chaos Undivided {Warriors, Beastmen AND Daemons}, Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves, Greenskins {Orcs AND Goblins}, Skaven, Undead {WHQ pre-dates the separate Khemri army}) and mobs of non-army specific monsters {gorgons, wyverns, giant scorpions, hydras, centaurs, dragons, etc.}

In 2014 parlance, that is what?

10 WFB armies?

11 even if you could call the mob of monsters an army?

Yes siree bob!!!

 

Zethnar, since when does FFG sell toy soldiers in such a quantity AND variety as that?

You have played and/or do own a copy of the original WHQ game, right Zethnar?

Edited by The Horseman

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WHQ done correctly requires the player to not collect just one or two armies WFB armies (minus war machines), but six armies (Chaos Undivided {Warriors, Beastmen AND Daemons}, Chaos Dwarves, Dark Elves, Greenskins {Orcs AND Goblins}, Skaven, Undead {WHQ pre-dates the separate Khemri army}) and mobs of non-army specific monsters {gorgons, wyverns, giant scorpions, hydras, centaurs, dragons, etc.}

 

 

No, Warhammer Quest requires STATS for such miniatures.  There are plenty of miniature manufacturers out there who I'm sure are willing to provide a wide range of miniatures for the discerning customer, Games Workshop among them.

 

However there are a couple of things you're apparently unaware of.  The first is that the base game of Warhammer Quest came with a paltry amount of miniatures compared to the list you've put together up there and it was perfectly playable, the second is that Fantasy Flight are somewhat known for producing expansion upon expansion.  In fact the model they currently use for Descent would work perfectly well with Warhammer Quest, where they slowly introduce new monsters in small blister packs and the occasional big box expansion which would also add a slew of new tiles, quests, equipment and heroes for your game.  It certainly does not require a huge back catalog of miniature lines and you would be fooling yourself if you believed that the majority of people who owned Warhammer Quest actually had six plus armies for Warhammer.

 

So sure, FFG would never do Warhammer Quest in the delusional way you seem to have envisioned, but then no company would.  Even Games Workshop only expected you to maybe buy a box or two of Orcs, maybe one of Skaven.  At that point they were hoping you'd get into the Warhammer hobby and put aside your WHQ.  The stats for extra miniatures were a bonus, not a requirement.

Edited by Zethnar

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Zethnar, I think you are short a fact that you needed to make this judgement of yours far less inaccurate - I worked for GW during the WHQ Period.

 

I was at the meetings called by GW Office & Studio about the game and the expectations they had for the game's situation

What you claim GW expected for WHQ was certainly NOT what was being said at work Zethnar!

 

Sorry Zethnar, you are simply mistaken.

No delusion involved in any fashion on my part.

Just rock solid experience!

 

As to WHQ core set and playability, I would agree it was for those who did not get the game.

One could throw out the RolePlay book with the bathwater very easily if one had no aspirations for one's warriors.

Just does not sound like any WHQ player I know though - except maybe you Zethnar.

 

As to the toy soldiers, before 2000, who would you have bought the toy soldiers from other than GW?

There has been in the last several years a great upheaval, thanks to the Net, to the number of toy soldier manufacturers.

When WHQ was released in 1995, there might been have six other fantasy toy soldier companies in the marketplace worldwide, and no other company approaching the quality of GW sculpts other than Ral Partha, and RP could not have handled supplying the needs of the WHQ player.

You are showing your youth and lack of experience here Zethnar.

Especially with your stance of no loyalty to the company creating and manufacturing the game as to where you buy your toy soldiers from.

This was not an issue years ago.

Have people actually changed that much in the last generation?

 

FFG just does not have the assets, at this time, to devote to the production that WHQ needs to be the all-round game it has been for twenty years.

Moreover, as I understand the situation, FFG cannot legally do so anyway.

Zethnar, your reference to Descent is an apples v. oranges comparison any way since it is not connected to GW Office and their odd way of thinking.

.

I am sorry Zethnar that you have taken an acrimonius stance to me and my understanding of the situation.

I hope we can overcome that, especially with the further information in this posting.

Have a good day.

Edited by The Horseman

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Uhhhhh....if FFG could legally recreate WHQ AND wanted to recreate WHQ...FFG absolutely could recreate WHQ. To say that they would not be able to is silly.

Edited by Doc9

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Surely it could be recreated using the same method as eldritch horror cardboard in a stand for monsters. I'm sure if there was the demand someone would make miniatures but to level up and use miniatures back then would of cost a fortune, we actually use a piece of card with the name written on it.

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To do WHQ the original WHQ way from scratch, which is what FFG would have to do, could bankrupt them.

When TSR wanted to make their own toy soldier division from scratch, well, that, along with THE professional retail book return, is what really did them in.

Headhunting a casting manager,who just happened to have not signed the confidentiality agreement with GW, was a real coup for TSR in Late '96.

Laying on the assets necessary to start the new division though made them have to hock themselves up to the gills.

Then, THE book return just before Christmas that year just put TSR beyond the pale.

 

Several other toy soldier start-ups in the States and one in Canada in the '90s fell through without even making a name for themselves for this very "boom or bust" reason.

 

Thanks to my experiences at GW and with a couple of independent retailers, I am very familiar with the "nuts and bolts" required in a toy soldier venture like this.

It is a GREAT deal of money with no real promises of a full return, let alone a profit.

FFG, to do so, would have to lay out its entire future on the chance of success of a venture this size.

Really chancy.

 

But if folks want to disagree out of loyalty to FFG or some other less charitable reason, well, everyone has the right to be so optimistic.

It just will not meet up with the facts of the matter.

Sorry.

 

 

Yes Jorath, one can use cardboard standees instead of toy soldiers.

But it never looks the same and it then just does not play the same either.

Ask anyone, who has just had to make due with such, who knows there can be more.

In my experience, they are never satisfied with anything less.

 

 

Any way, we will just have to wait and see how a WHQ card game will work out.

See round the bend.

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Games Workshop's refusal to allow anyone to make miniatures of their figures but them aside there's also the matter of FFG already having games like Warhammer Quest in the form of Descent and Imperial Assault. Between those two they have fantasy and sci-fi covered. I am also curious as to whether or not FFG even have the rights to make a true Warhammer Quest board game. Remember they made the Space Hulk card game while GW recently released a new edition of the board game. Could very well be the same situation with Warhammer Quest.

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'The Horseman' is pretty hilarious and/or the best troll on these boards. I think Zethnar is spot on.

 

I believe FFG has stated numerous times that they have the rights to produce board/card games in conjunction with GW's approvals. The only time they have done miniatures are as basic representations that could never be used in GW's main product lines. Thus, they wouldn't remake WHQ in its original format (all things GW originally branded & launched for WHQ, not every WHFB miniature ever made :blink: ). As previously stated, with what FFG has done with Descent, they could completely recreate for a new WHQ, however GW would be unlikely to comply.

 

I think FFG doesn't want to clone Descent without an 'Overlord' just to slap GW branding on it. I don't think they have had high take rates with their cooperative Print-On-Demand expansions, so they see no market. They can just keep going with Descent (but that lack of native co-op is what generally keeps me away from it).

 

However, FFG appears to have had a ton of success with their LCG's and co-op card games in general. Thus, this makes perfect sense.

 

I for one am thrilled about this new announcement and game! I'm envisioning a Warhammer Fantasy themed mish-mash of Space Hulk: Death Angel, Lord of the Rings LCG, and a dash of Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

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I am glad I am such a source of jocular fun for folks like you wlybrand.

Y'all are such "party-line" optimists.

Such folks are always united in their naivete.

 

We will see how it all works out.

As for myself, I am keeping my expectations low for this game.

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horsey guy, It has nothing to do with "party line" optimism, or loyalty to FFG. You saying something as rediculous and dismissive as that does not make it so. It comes from experience. FFG has already PROVEN with games like Descent, and Star Wars Assault, that they can put out mini heavy dungeon crawler style games. For you to say that they could not despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary makes you a troll at best, or very very thick headed at worst. If they had the legal rights to do so and the willingness to do so, they could absolutely, without a doubt, recreate WHQ just as you and I remember it. Nothing you say changes that. They have already shown they are capable of doing it. You are an odd duck sir.

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Since you have decided to put it out, let me as well.

 

I am he who is looking in from the outside perspective, the industry perspective, the long perspective.

Moreover, I am the one only pointing out that doing a game like the original WHQ from scratch would require a massive outlay of capital.

Why are those words to deny and get puffed up about?!?

It is the absolute truth and meets the facts of this industry's history point-for-point.

 

FFG has made a wide variety of games, many with some traction but only a few with a lot of traction; in fact, it has a rather huge stable of product that needs maintenance.

Reminds me of several companies that had lots of traction at the beginning and middle of this industry that are no longer with us - Judges Guild, FASA, Game Designers Workshop, TSR - and I can go on.

There was plenty of evidence then that they would be with us for years.

They are not though.

In this industry there are a lot more dead bodies than live ones, and all they were doing was reaching for the brass ring as well.

 

Pointing out the situation and describing the situation for what it is despite the cheerleading of the fanboys does not make me a troll.

It simply makes me a pragmatist, a tired realist, a student of the history of this industry since and including the '70s.

 

A card game is a card game only and requires a lot less capital to carry off than a toy soldier game,

That is a fact.

 

Why is this upsetting to anyone here?

Y'all's reactions to these facts do not make any sense.

In fact, these reactions raise serious questions within my experience in this industry.

It makes me start to wonder about what I do not know about this company.

Why the strident defense to simple questions and facts?

 

If there is nothing at issue with FFG, it should all stop here, right?

Either way really, it should end here.

This thread does not seem to be addressing the issues I was concerned with and folks are just using it to exercise.

 

Let me be the one to do this for all of you.

Okay?

I am wrong despite decades of experience from the Late '70s in/with/being part of/participating in the industry and all of you, despite your own experience, are right.

Okay?

End of thread, yes?

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I for one am happy about this. Could be great.

Different of course to original WHQ but in the same spirit and maybe financially more accessible.

I would have liked a WHQ reprint too, but there are similar things on the market or upcoming (Heroquest reboot too if it ever arrives) wheras the single player card game format can use more material.

I like how ffg handles their other products I have bought, and so am looking forward to this.

Oh, and as a longtime GW customer while horseman surely has knowledge I do think ffg could reprint WHQ if they were allowed and wished, their other products show their ability and scope. The industry now is not what we remember of 20/30 years ago. Sculptors now are so often digital with 3d printing for masters. Mold making and casting (resin or res/plas) while not easy or cheap, IS accessible to the masses so much so than before. Anyone producing such a game "today" does not need anything near as much as they used to years ago. Its possible.

Not saying easy or cheap, just much much more doable (see everything on kickstarter).

Also, WHQ at its finish was big, but takes time to release all that and ffg seem ok doing that. WHQ benefitted from WFB figures already available, but we also still have that now.

Ffg could do this. Though I dont think they will.

Roll on this card game, Im looking forward!!

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Yeah, Alex scored some good points here. The production chain now is completely different than in the past. And FFG has in production quite a lot of heavy-on-minis games, from BattleLore 2nd edition to Forbidden Stars (just to name a few without entering the realm of the miniature games such as X-Wing or Armada).

 

I think (just thoughts, I actually have no idea of what's behind the curtain) there can be several factors resulting in the actual choice:

 

- first of all, they don't want to cannibalize their audience: they already have a dungeon crawling game in a fantasy setting (Descent 2nd edition), and producing a second one will interfere. Additionally, one of the main critiques Descent constantly receives is that there is no coop play / solo options, while WHQ would provide some

 

- card games have lately a huge success (see what happened in the last couple of years, from Legendary to the success of the LCG model and so on) and a relatively low cost when compared to miniature games (hence, the target is wider: not everyone can invest 100 bucks on a a game and then get all the expansions and so on, while spending 40 bucks on a card game is more accessible)

 

- then, it's just a question of what the two companies decided to do

 

I think the real question here should be "how awesome will this game be?". Speculating backwards on "minis: yes or no" won't change the final result (please note, I'm not censoring any conversation, I'm just suggesting that focusing on what's actually coming may be better. Then, it's clearly up to you :) )

Edited by Julia

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So instead of doing a cool re-imagining of WHQ they do a rune age clone thigny...I have to say that so far I m pretty much underwhelmed by FFG's showing at GenCon this year

Edited by LudVanB

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Games Workshop does not allow any other company to produce 28mm miniatures for any of their licensed Warhammer games! That is the reason why we have busts in Relic instead of figures. This policy has always been enforced and will likely never change. FFG could not legally do a reboot even if they wanted to. As for GW ever rebooting Warhammer Quest (or Mordheim, or any other fantasy miniatures game) is slim to nothing with the death of the Old World. :(

 

We should be grateful that FFG keeps the Old World alive, even if in the form of a card game, and I personally am really looking forward to playing with it.

Edited by Rince

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It's quite clear FFG has the wherewithal to produce a new version of WHQ. They had it 10 years ago, the Descent first edition has a similar amount of miniatures and other components, so today it's not even in question and no amount of direct experience working for GW can change that.

As has been stated though, GW don't license other companies to produce games with loads of miniatures, because that's their bag. And besides, it seems like FFG has moved away from the huge games, certainly they've not made a 'tombstone' boxed game in a while I don't think.

That combination wlybrand mentioned of space hulk death angel, lotr lcg and pathfinder card game seems to me a good stab at what they're going for with the card game here. I couldn't get my wife in to the lotr lcg but I'm hoping this one floats her boat. Pathfinder quests seemed too samey for me and I gave up before the end of the first adventure set. I'm hoping FFG will be able to make the quests more distinct, with more of a sense of exploration and with less clunky mechanics overall. Premature perhaps to talk of expansions, but if they can pull it off, it seems ripe for new characters and campaigns.

And it should be with us within the next couple weeks of months as well. Looking forward to seeing some more previews in the meantime.

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I think the real question here should be "how awesome will this game be?". Speculating backwards on "minis: yes or no" won't change the final result (please note, I'm not censoring any conversation, I'm just suggesting that focusing on what's actually coming may be better. Then, it's clearly up to you :) )

 

Looking at the game setup on the video, I think it will be quite fun. My guess is that some of the mechanics will be similar to the 40K LCG Conquest (which I own) which can be quite tactical and immersive. Conquest is 2 player, so I'm interested to see how this 4 player co-op game turns out. The goblin "monster card" in the video is titled, "A Foul Stench: An Uneasy Alliance Quest" so player interaction might be somewhat nuanced. 

 

 

We should be grateful that FFG keeps the Old World alive, even if in the form of a card game, and I personally am really looking forward to playing with it.

 

I agree! Long live the Old World! Long live Oldhammer! 

Edited by Eradico Pravus

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Some of the figures coming from FFG are looking really stunning and very manageable to paint. I bought some GW figures about a year ago, for an Advanced Heroquest game I was running and found some of the detail was making the paint job very complicated. I found that old GW figures from the MB heroquest game came out looking a lot better than my new GW figures because of over detail, I don't know if anyone else has found this to be a problem or if its just me, but I prefer the FFG figures these days over GW. So to confirm my point on the discussion over this thread, can FFG produce a miniature based game, **** right they can and have been doing so over the last 3-4 years that I know of and have been playing their games.

 

On this new game, I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. Thanks to FFG for picking up the slack from GW who once used to make great games and now just make miniatures. :)

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I am wrong

Good...now we can move on. I agree, since GW isn't doing anything with WHQ, it's great to see FFG bringing the olde world to the table in SOME kind of fashion. I loved this game when I was younger. Can't wait to give this new incarnation a try.

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I am wrong

Good...now we can move on. I agree, since GW isn't doing anything with WHQ, it's great to see FFG bringing the olde world to the table in SOME kind of fashion. I loved this game when I was younger. Can't wait to give this new incarnation a try.

 

Wow! :blink:  :rolleyes:  :huh:

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It would make sense for GW to allow FFG to reprint the original game as without any financial risk they would of created a market for a stock of models that won't sell very well due to the AoS new miniatures. That said FFG would have to be sure a market existed for WHQ the board game and what better way to find out than release an adventure card game set within the same game world. I may have to dust of my copy of the original minus box which the kids destroyed. My rose-tinted glasses are getting misty.

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