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Crabbok

Inquisitor's TIE vs TIE Advanced

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On the points scale can an imperial awing cost 17-18 and still see play? The inquisitor looks solid but naked at PS 2 and 18-19 doesn't sound like good value on the lower end to me. As others have said, if they want it to take X1 then they might have overcosted TAP too.

I wouldn't fly it at 18-19, either. I don't think it would have been a good idea to price it deliberately with the TIE/x1 title in mind, though: as I said upthread, it risks pushing the TIE Advanced right back into the hole from which it just emerged, and it would also effectively require the Raider to get use out of a brand new fighter expansion--that is, it would mean the ship was designed broken so that it would be compatible with a fix. That's a pretty Byzantine piece of logic to employ when they could get the same effect by just pricing the ship correctly in the first place.

 

 

You and many other might be in for a disappointment then, VS.  On the whole, we the fans seem to ALWAYS think FFG over prices the new ships.  Would I love to see the base PAT come in at 14 to 16 points?  HECK YEA!  Will it?  Doubtful.  Looking at the average spread, 7 points separates the top dog from the base model more times than not.  That would put the base TAP at 18 points.  This still gives you enough room to put 4 or 5 of them in a list (with upgrades).  I wish the Starviper had been so priced.

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I wouldn't fly it at 18-19, either.

 

You and many other might be in for a disappointment then, VS.  On the whole, we the fans seem to ALWAYS think FFG over prices the new ships.

They've done it frequently, but not always--and it's getting better.

 

Would I love to see the base PAT come in at 14 to 16 points?  HECK YEA!  Will it?  Doubtful.  Looking at the average spread, 7 points separates the top dog from the base model more times than not.

Ships%20with%20PS%20and%20Cost%20Gaps.pn

 

That's everything through Wave 7, with the exception of the YT-1300 (which, due to the changes in the stat line, isn't a fair comparison). You're right that the most typical pattern is for the cost gap to be (PS gap)+1, which would be 7-8 points here, but there's a lot of variation there.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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Inquisitor's ability is one of the few that's actually worth a couple points tax in addition to the PS tax.  Adding another red die and removing a defender's range 3 bonus agility is a huge, huge upgrade when you consider that this ship can take autothrusters.  I could easily see the generics cost 15 or 16, depending on whether they're PS1 or PS2.

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I wouldn't fly it at 18-19, either.

 

You and many other might be in for a disappointment then, VS.  On the whole, we the fans seem to ALWAYS think FFG over prices the new ships.  

They've done it frequently, but not always--and it's getting better.

Would I love to see the base PAT come in at 14 to 16 points?  HECK YEA!  Will it?  Doubtful.  Looking at the average spread, 7 points separates the top dog from the base model more times than not.

X-wing: 8 points (PS2 to PS9)

Y-wing: 7 points (PS2 to PS8)

TIE Advanced: 8 points (PS2 to PS9)

TIE Fighter: 6 points (PS1 to PS8)

YT-1300: Stat lines prevent comparison

A-wing: 9 points (PS1 to PS8)

Firespray: 6 points (PS3 to PS8)

TIE Interceptor: 9 points (PS1 to PS9)

B-wing: 9 points (PS2 to PS8)

HWK-290: 9 points (PS2 to PS8)

TIE Bomber: 10 points (PS2 to PS7)

Lambda: 6 points (PS2 to PS8)

TBc when I get to my computer...

 

 

Going by your numbers (and excluding the YT-1300) the average would be 7.91

 

Looking just at Imperial small based ships (that are currently available, Waves 1-6): 5.5 is the average spread.

 

That last number worries me even more.  I might be optimistic expecting a 18 point base cost!  This could be a 19 or 20 point ship!

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I wouldn't fly it at 18-19, either.

You and many other might be in for a disappointment then, VS. On the whole, we the fans seem to ALWAYS think FFG over prices the new ships.
They've done it frequently, but not always--and it's getting better.

Would I love to see the base PAT come in at 14 to 16 points? HECK YEA! Will it? Doubtful. Looking at the average spread, 7 points separates the top dog from the base model more times than not.

Ships%20with%20PS%20and%20Cost%20Gaps.pn That's everything through Wave 7, with the exception of the YT-1300 (which, due to the changes in the stat line, isn't a fair comparison). You're right that the most typical pattern is for the cost gap to be (PS gap)+1, which would be 7-8 points here, but there's a lot of variation there.

**** check out that gap on the Bomber. It's got the next to lowest PS spread but has the largest point gap.

Edited by WWHSD

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I might be optimistic expecting a 18 point base cost!  This could be a 19 or 20 point ship!

Okay, this is where I bow out. You're either trolling or living in an alternate reality.

 

 

Not trolling, being realistic (and working off FFG's track record).

 

What is a cannon+extra attack die like pilot ability worth?  I'm hoping a lot.  If so, this ship could have a spread closer to the TIE Bomber.  I too agree that if this ship is over 18 points, FFG will have created another broken TA!  I believe my original guess of 18 is the more likely cost for the base PAT.

 

One has to figure that Vader's ability is worth 4+ points  (PTL plus whatever not being stressed is worth).  Being there is no range 1-3 cannon without a special ability, this one is hard to judge.  Let's go with half the cost of a mangler (2) then add the ability to add an extra attack dice based off opportunist (-stress - limitation [which I think those two factors are a wash]) at another 4 points.  That would be a 6 point pilot ability!  If this logic holds water, we could be looking at a 15 to 16 point base ship.

Edited by Stone37

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

Edited by Stone37

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

Exactly.  I fully admit that there is plenty we still don't know about the TIE Advil at the moment, but based on what I've seen thus far, I don't think I would ever take an Advil OVER an Interceptor.  The only thing I like about the Advil at the moment is the sculpt, which looks kinda cool to me, the more I look at it the more I want to hold it in my hand.  

 

 

 

20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

 

Shields would mean more if it had more than 2 hull.   We've now got multiple ways to put direct hits onto a ship that bypass shields, and ANY ship that has only 2 hull is vulnerable to that sort of thing.  

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Maybe it compares more closely to the A-Wing? The trade of Evade for Barrel Roll, the slightly higher starting pilot skill, and so forth, should put it as maybe in the same range as an A-Wing - depending on how good the dial is.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

Exactly.  I fully admit that there is plenty we still don't know about the TIE Advil at the moment, but based on what I've seen thus far, I don't think I would ever take an Advil OVER an Interceptor.  The only thing I like about the Advil at the moment is the sculpt, which looks kinda cool to me, the more I look at it the more I want to hold it in my hand.  

 

 

 

20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

 

Shields would mean more if it had more than 2 hull.   We've now got multiple ways to put direct hits onto a ship that bypass shields, and ANY ship that has only 2 hull is vulnerable to that sort of thing.  

 

 

I don't think FFG factors in "what can kill it" when it assigns a value.  If it did, then older ships would constantly become more and more "over priced".  You are right though, this ship has its fair share of weaknesses.  No more or less than other TIES though.  It's kind of the nature of a true TIE.

 

Maybe it compares more closely to the A-Wing? The trade of Evade for Barrel Roll, the slightly higher starting pilot skill, and so forth, should put it as maybe in the same range as an A-Wing - depending on how good the dial is.

 

I've argued against the A-wing comparison a few times over.  Mind you, we really don't know enough to truly compare.  My thoughts are it shares the evade action and 2/3/2/2 stat line with the A-wing but  after that, we really don't know what the dial is going to look like.  I have my doubts that the PAT will have any green turns.  I'm guessing it will be closer to a TA but switch the greens around to make the PAT "faster"  (2 banks and straights 1 - 4 will be green, with a different speed K-turn than the TA)  I honestly think comparing the PAT to the Z95 is probably the better comparison.  This, to me, feels like a lesser version of the TA (as the Z95 is to the X-wing), but in a more "TIE" kind of way.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

You don't win x-wing through defence you win by rolling red dice which squints have more of.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

You don't win x-wing through defence you win by rolling red dice which squints have more of.

 

You understand that, and I understand that.... but FFG has a history of over valuing green dice and other defensive stats/abilities.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

You don't win x-wing through defence you win by rolling red dice which squints have more of.

 

 

And by being able to modify those red dice, which the v1 title helps with.

That said, I think that it's going to be around 16-17 points making it cost about the same as an Alpha after adding the title. You'll trade a red die for some extra durability and action economy which I think will enough to get the generics on the table.

I'd like to see them at 16 points with the title (because 32 points for a pair seems like it will fit a lot of lists, and lets you run a swarm of 6) but I don't think FFG will price them that low.

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20 is absolutely unrealistic in every sense of the game.   I can't even come up with a devil's advocate type way to give you a situation in where it would be 19 or 20.   18 is the highest possible, so my realistic guess would be 17 or 18 for the base TIE Advil. 

See the issue then is it's competing with tie interceptors and it loses because it's got less firepower.

 

 

But it has shields (which FFG will price higher than hull)  See my theoretical price break down at the end of Page 18.  I'm still sticking with 18 as the base cost, because I think what the PAT gives up to gain 2 shields (and 1 PS) will be a wash.

You don't win x-wing through defence you win by rolling red dice which squints have more of.

 

 

And by being able to modify those red dice, which the v1 title helps with.

That said, I think that it's going to be around 16-17 points making it cost about the same as an Alpha after adding the title. You'll trade a red die for some extra durability and action economy which I think will enough to get the generics on the table.

I'd like to see them at 16 points with the title (because 32 points for a pair seems like it will fit a lot of lists, and lets you run a swarm of 6) but I don't think FFG will price them that low.

 

If the PAT (with title) costs less than an Alpha, the Interceptor pilots should riot!  (and I've explained why in previous posts)

 

Why would anyone take a PS1 Alpha over a PS2 PAT with V1 if both cost the same?  That action economy is just sick!

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Why would anyone take a PS1 Alpha over a PS2 PAT with V1 if both cost the same?  That action economy is just sick!

Because 3 attack dice let you hurt a bunch of stuff that 2 attack dice can't. And no bugger flies the Alpha anyway.

 

Unmodified 3 red dice is inferior to modified 2 dice.  The PAT (with title) could potentially have a TL for offense and an evade for defense every turn. Ask Hon Solo about TIE swarms.  

I actually really like Alphas.  Before Wave 7 comes out (because these new and improved bombs are going to be sick!) try flying Howlrunner with a swarm of Alphas.  Things go BOOM!

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Unmodified 3 red dice is inferior to modified 2 dice.  

 

 

No way!  Think of 3 dice as a 2 dice attack, plus a free reroll, exepct you get to keep both the pre- and post reroll value. And it's action independant.   So you can focus as well.  Or better yet, use that action to boost/barrel roll and deny you your shot, and STILL have that extra die (Or potentially a fourth die if range 1).  If you are stuck using the v1 ability to TL/Evade each turn, that means you aren't using any other action, so no arc dodging after your movement.  Interceptors completely trump a TIE Advil in my mind, (Based on what we know). 

 

  But imagine this card: 

 

Abbreviation Ban

Modification

Instances of ADV. on this ship now = Advanced

Cost (3)

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Unmodified 3 red dice is inferior to modified 2 dice.  

 

 

No way!  Think of 3 dice as a 2 dice attack, plus a free reroll, exepct you get to keep both the pre- and post reroll value. And it's action independant.   So you can focus as well.  Or better yet, use that action to boost/barrel roll and deny you your shot, and STILL have that extra die (Or potentially a fourth die if range 1).  If you are stuck using the v1 ability to TL/Evade each turn, that means you aren't using any other action, so no arc dodging after your movement.  Interceptors completely trump a TIE Advil in my mind, (Based on what we know). 

 

  But imagine this card: 

 

Abbreviation Ban

Modification

Instances of ADV. on this ship now = Advanced

Cost (3)

 

 

You're cracking me up with the proposed modification.  lol

 

I agree that the Interceptor is more offensive minded than the PAT (so we see thus far).  The PAT is more durable and seems to have a few more options to play with.  If all you care about is straight offense, the Interceptor is you ship!  The TIE Advanced line of ships are that balance between power and sustainability.  (And I'm not talking about farm raised Cod here.)   :D

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