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Crabbok

Inquisitor's TIE vs TIE Advanced

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There is an argument for both sides, but only one truth right now: We don't know.

I look forward to the sky is falling thread that comes after the official word. We might even see some headwear on the dinner menu at the after party. ;)

Edited by Stone37

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It would infringe on the turf of the TIE advanced, TIE interceptor and TIE phantom. It'd be utterly broken.

 

Anyone who thinks TIE/x1 can go on the Inquistor has an understanding of game balance so poor that even WizKids would turn them down.

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banjobenito - keep in mind that scootypuffjunior does not argue that his conclusion is merely probable (that would by my position) but that it is logically necessary.

 

All members of X have been Y -> A is X -> A is also Y

 

The conclusion does not follow from the premises. As has been explained, that all title cards have heretofore referred to one model cannot establish that all title cards must always refer to one model. What's more, the premises assume the conclusion: if A is a member of X (your second premise) then your first premise and conclusion are the same.

 

So let's review the two positions:

 

- RAW state that title cards can only refer to one model

 

- RAW do not state that title cards can only refer to one model

 

Until someone can find a rule printed by FFG to the effect of the former, the latter must be assumed. This is a separate matter from whether one thinks that the TIE/x1 card should be apply to the TIE Adv. Prototype. Although I think it should not, I also think it is worthwhile explaining why this can be a question in the first place.

Hi manchu! It's not my argument, it's scooty's - i dont have a dog in this race :)

But yes, you're right, the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises - because it's an inductive argument, not a deductive one. (You are also right that if he thinks his argument provides a necessary conclusion, he is incorrect, though I didn't see him claim this at any point.)

His argument is also susceptible to the 'black swan problem' - namely...

1. All swans are white

2. This new bird is a swan

c. Therefore this new bird is also white

Seeing how the sample is quite small, an inductive argument from 20 cases is not too strong, I agree. But it's not logically fallacious or flawed.

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So, the V1 can use the Advanced dial?

If it can take the title it can take the dial. Since it can't take the dial it can't take the title.

Nope. The claim isn't one of identity but of a shared set.

There is a set of ships identified as tie advanced

All ships in that set can take the x1

(Each shipm in the set may or ay not have seperate dials, according to whether they are identical or not.)

The only question is, what ships make up the content of this set?

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It really doesn't matter if a word's a fragment of another or if this rule can be intepreted this way because it's not how FFG (on X-Wing at least) works. They will make the card work how they want it to. By RAW turrets don't wor because of the order of the attack sequence, but we know how they're meant to work. By RAW Cluster Missiles should be able to hit two targets because of the design of the attack step, but we all know how it's meant to work and play it that way.
 
Likewise, is the TIE advanced v1 meant to be able to equip the title card of the TIE advanced x1? Obviously not.

Firstly, TIE/x1 is a fix card to the tune of about five or six points given the potency of Advanced Targeting Computer and of Accuracy Corrector on a 2 dice ship. While the new TIE/v1 title is excellent, TIE/x1 blows it out of the water. If the TIE advanced v1 can equip the TIE/x1 title then it will: it's an instant autoinclude. It'd make the TIE/v1 broken or the TIE/v1 would come unplayably overpriced out of the box, and either way the Raider's an almost compulsory purchase for it.
 
TIE/x1 is broken on any other ship.

 

It also doesn't make sense lorewise. I make no claim to lore dictating mechanics but it can be illuminating on intent.

Picture the TIE fighter. It has a short designation, TIE/ln. The TIE interceptor likewise abbreviates to TIE/in and the TIE bomber to TIE/sa.
 

tlQF8fr.png

This is a TIE advanced x1. It abbreviates to TIE/x1.

 

 

VkxKdbr.png

This is as TIE advanced v1. It abbreviates to TIE/v1.

 

 

 


tlQF8fr.png

Again, this is a TIE/x1,

 


VkxKdbr.png

And this is a TIE/v1.

 
The names of the titles refer to the ships themselves. Lorewise, equipping the TIE/x1 title to the TIE Advanced v1 is like equipping the title "BTL-A4 Y-wing" to an X-wing.
 
These two ships are not the same. Imagine for a moment they're called the TIE panda (TIE/pd) and the TIE lion (TIE/li). Would you really believe that FFG would intend for the TIE lion to be able to equip the TIE/pd title?
I'll reiterate, whatever rules lawyering may or may not say, FFG will FAQ to fit their intent. If some rules loophole allows the TIE lion to equip the TIE/pd title, FFG will FAQ it closed.

Edited by Blue Five

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adv. != advanced

What do you think it stands for then?   Advil?  Does the Inquisitor have a nasty headache because of those blasted rebels?

 

Honestly if people are going honestly sit here and say that ADV isn't Advanced then there is no point in even communicating.

it doesn't matter what it stands for. It only matters that it was shortened.

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Also, for everyone's reference, here's the relevant paragraph from the "Modifications and Upgrades" reference card that comes with the TIE Punisher:

Ship-Type-Restricted Upgrades

Some Upgrade cards are labeled "TIE only." Cards with these labels can only be equipped to a ship whose name begins with "TIE" (for example, "TIE fighter" or "TIE punisher").

So there's a specific rule for what "TIE only" means, separate from other "[ship type] only" upgrades.
You'll notice that TIE is in quotes and all caps. You have to match that exactly. A Tierd man can't take the mk. II, neither could a Tieclasp. Just TIE's. People need to stop thinking English where words have etymology. We're talking rules, and in rules abreviating a word completely changes it's meaning. Edited by PewPewPew

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Well however people feel about whether RAW are ambiguous on the matter ...

 

... is there anyone who thinks TAP pilots being able to take TIE/x1 is actually good for the game???

 

The TAP has a HUGE weakness and the V1 title helps to fix this weakness.  The X1 title would up its offense, but at the cost of durability.  This ship is not a tank.  2 shields, 2 hull.  It can die in one roll of the dice.  The TAP does not have an evade action without the V1 title.  I don't see the X1 title as a bad thing for the game at all.  They might survive one round of jousting, or go down in a ball of flames.  I doubt they will have the dial to be a good flanker to boot.

 

Imagine playing a Defender with only 2 shield and 2 hull, or an A-wing without the ability to evade.  This is why I don't think the X1 title on the TAP would cause that big of a stir.

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The TAP has a HUGE weakness

 

I don't see it. It's a TIE advanced x1 with what looks to be a better dial, Boost instead of Evade, proper pricing and no access to TIE/x1 (which is what makes it distinct enough from the TIE advanced to be worth releasing as its own ship.)

 

or an A-wing without the ability to evade

 

I play A-wings to great effect without ever using the evade action. It's called Focus.

 

Give a TIE advanced v1 Accuracy Corrector and TIE/v1's practically redundant. You're no longer constrained to shooting at the target you locked to get your dice modification, you WILL get two hits whereas a target lock merely improves your chances, and instead of evade you can focus, barrel roll or boost.

 

I don't see the X1 title as a bad thing for the game at all.

 

Then I dearly hope you're never involved in balancing it. You clearly have no appreciation for the power of TIE/x1 and Advanced Targeting Computer. It had to take an unplayably bad ship up to competitive level, and it succeeded. It is not balanced on any other ship, because those ships aren't cripplingly overcosted.

 

30 points doesn't get much from an ace.

Inquistor with TIE/x1 and Advanced Targeting Computer? Three dice and an autocrit at all ranges. Better than four dice. If he target locks a ship, he's got a Heavy Laser Cannon with no crit limit and an automatic critical on one die. A Heavy Laser Cannon costs seven points. You'd give the Inquistor an HLC with an autocrit for one.

 

For only 26 points, at Pilot Skill 8. The TIE phantom just became obsolete, and look at what that ship did in Wave 4.

 

I reiterate, only 26 points. Look what you can get for 26 points. Nothing that can compete with that. And the modification, missile and EPT slots are still open.

One point gets you VI and sends him to PS10. Three gets you PTL, and we're still not at the price of your most basic Soontir Fel.

Edited by Blue Five

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You know... we haven't seen the Advil's dial yet.   It could have only 3s and 4s... and be devoid of any 1 and 2 maneuvers.  In which case, allowing it to take the X1 might not feel so wrong.  (I doubt this is the case, but I'm just saying... you never know til you know - and I'd love to see Vorpal eat a fondant hat)

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The TAP has a HUGE weakness

 

I don't see it. It's a TIE advanced x1 with what looks to be a better dial, Boost instead of Evade, proper pricing and no access to TIE/x1 (which is what makes it distinct enough from the TIE advanced to be worth releasing as its own ship.)

 

 

 

We have NO CLUE what the dial will be.  All we know is it has a green straight 4.  That being said, I will GUESS at the dial, which is all any of us can do.  I have guessed this ship will have a similar dial as the TA. (Much like the Z95 is similar to the X-wing.)  Same dial, but with green 2 banks and straights. (I'm also guessing it's K turn will be a different speed).  So, it's a "faster" TA.

 

That being said, at 2 shield, 2 hull, this thing is a goner against most popular two ship builds running today.  The Vi title and Autothrusters will be vital in keeping this ship on the board.  If one could take the X1 title, they would be giving up the ability to Evade.  Unlike the Phantom, it does not have a crew slot or the ability to cloak.  (Mind you a cloaked phantom without an evade or a focus is still pretty hosed.) Three unmodified green dice is not a reliable defense.  A-wings rely on good piloting and their Evade to survive.  With a GREAT dial, they can also use PTL to turtle.  I do not believe this will be the case with the TAP.

Furthermore, I believe FFG was well aware of the TAP when it created the X1 title.  Whether it can take it or not, it is not going to cause a sky is falling "auto include" moment in this game.  A TAP with the X1 will find itself getting one-shotted far too often.

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The Inquisitor's TIE is now the TIE Advil. Because we all have a headache as a result of it. Plus now there is no confusion. The X1 title couldn't possibly go on a TIE Advil. Even if it is a TIE Advil Prototype.

Are you being willfully ignorant about context on purpose?

It's not "TIE Advil" any more than it is a "TIE Advanced". It's a "TIE Adv. Prototype". Full stop.

Edited by PewPewPew

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The Inquisitor's TIE is now the TIE Advil. Because we all have a headache as a result of it. Plus now there is no confusion. The X1 title couldn't possibly go on a TIE Advil. Even if it is a TIE Advil Prototype.

Are you being willfully ignorant about context on purpose?

It's not "TIE Advil" any more than it is a "TIE Advanced". It's a "TIE Adv. Prototype". Full stop.

He was making a joke about the debate.

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We have NO CLUE what the dial will be. 

 

It'd have to make the TIE bomber look maneuverable to not be broken.

 

 A TAP with the X1 will find itself getting one-shotted far too often.

Then stick Hull Upgrade on it. Now you've knocked both the Phantom and the Advanced out of the park for 29 points.

 

Furthermore, I believe FFG was well aware of the TAP when it created the X1 title.  Whether it can take it or not, it is not going to cause a sky is falling "auto include" moment in this game.

 

Incorrect. It won't cause a sky-falling moment because it can't take it. Give it the A-wing's dial and it still looks like it's correctly priced, and I very much doubt it'll be that good.

 

TIE/x1 is deliberately heavily underpriced. Intentionally broken in a vacuum. It doesn't break the game because it's restricted to a ship so cripplingly overpriced that despite being a Wave 1 ship has had pretty much no presence since Wave 2, and even then it's been propelled into serious tournament consideration.

 

That being said, at 2 shield, 2 hull, this thing is a goner against most popular two ship builds running today.

 

Not when it's backed up by another 70 points worth of list. This thing is Whisper level power for less than the basic PTL Soontir. And that's Soontir without his defensive upgrades to keep him alive.

The generic looks to be cheap. Run five and you've still got room for upgrades. Give them all Thread Tracers and ATC and you've utterly outclassed the five Kihraxz build and annihilated any opposition. You're throwing 15 dice at Range three. No, ten dice and five autocrits. For five rounds, probably more, and with full action economy.

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The Inquisitor's TIE is now the TIE Advil. Because we all have a headache as a result of it. Plus now there is no confusion. The X1 title couldn't possibly go on a TIE Advil. Even if it is a TIE Advil Prototype.

Are you being willfully ignorant about context on purpose?

It's not "TIE Advil" any more than it is a "TIE Advanced". It's a "TIE Adv. Prototype". Full stop.

He was making a joke about the debate.

 

There really needs to be a sarcastic font!

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If one could take the X1 title, they would be giving up the ability to Evade.

You're drastically overestimating the value of an evade token, and particularly in comparison to the value of some combination of focus, boost, barrel roll, and Autothrusters. In fact, Autothrusters works a lot like an evade token when it activates, except that it can't push you up to [dice]+1 evade results; you're far, far better off defending with focus and Autothrusters than you are with an evade token.

Stop thinking about A-wings for a moment, and start thinking about a TIE Advanced that trades away 1 hull to gain the ability to boost and a big discount on the base price. (Reasonable estimates put it somewhere between Prototype Pilot + Chardaan Refit and Alpha Squadron Pilot, so the cheap generic TIE Prototype will be at least 3 points or 15% cheaper than the Tempest Squadron Pilot.)

The x1 title and Adv Targeting Computer are the only things standing between the TIE Advanced and their up-til-now obsolescence. Introducing a new ship that can take the Advanced fixes and Autothrusters while still ending up cheaper than a TIE Advanced at the same PS would leave every Advanced pilot except (maybe) Vader hanging out together in a pile in the back pocket of the binder... again.

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If one could take the X1 title, they would be giving up the ability to Evade.

You're drastically overestimating the value of an evade token, and particularly in comparison to the value of some combination of focus, boost, barrel roll, and Autothrusters. In fact, Autothrusters works a lot like an evade token when it activates, except that it can't push you up to [dice]+1 evade results; you're far, far better off defending with focus and Autothrusters than you are with an evade token.

Stop thinking about A-wings for a moment, and start thinking about a TIE Advanced that trades away 1 hull to gain the ability to boost and a big discount on the base price. (Reasonable estimates put it somewhere between Prototype Pilot + Chardaan Refit and Alpha Squadron Pilot, so the cheap generic TIE Prototype will be at least 3 points or 15% cheaper than the Tempest Squadron Pilot.)

The x1 title and Adv Targeting Computer are the only things standing between the TIE Advanced and their up-til-now obsolescence. Introducing a new ship that can take the Advanced fixes and Autothrusters while still ending up cheaper than a TIE Advanced at the same PS would leave every Advanced pilot except (maybe) Vader hanging out together in a pile in the back pocket of the binder... again.

 

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on a few points here.  The evade token is far superior to a focus token on defense.  It is a GUARANTEED result.  

 

I haven't been thinking about the the TAP as an A-wing, but many others have - forcing me to bring up the comparison.  If I'm right about the dial, it is going to be similar to the TA, the same as the Z95 is to the X-wing.  

 

AT is great against turrets and/or if you can stay at R3 of ships.  When this is not the case, it is just a two point card doing nothing for you.  If the TAP has the dial I think it will, R3 will be it's home for exchanges.

 

To review my thoughts, I believe the base TAP will be 18 points (as both of us are going off a lot of assumptions here, so it's hard to say what the impact of the X1 title would be on the PAT) with a very similar dial as the TA.  Add AT, X1 and ATC and it is now 21 points.  The same as a Tempest, but without the ability to evade.  Like a TIE Fighter, it will rely on positioning to avoid being blown up.  Again, without evade, it won't have any room for error.  A 21 point TA will have Evade and (more than likely) Accuracy Corrector. I'll pit my 4 Tempest TAs (with room for missiles) against 4 base PATs with a X1 load-out any day.

Edited by Stone37

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You didn't just question vorp on a probability issue did you...your butts gonna be so sore after he drops the maths hammer.

Question everything....   :D

 

Besides, math will tell you that an evade token is superior to a focus token on defense.  Just as a TL is superior to a focus on offense.

Edited by Stone37

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