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IvanB

SERIOUS GAMEPLAY AND "PLAYABILITY" ISSUES WITH THE "DARK CRUSADE SCENARIO"

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Hi to all;

I am Ivan and I noticed that, maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm not, the "Dark Crusade" scenario (from the "Halls of Terra" expansion) seems "broken" or not so well playtested because of its innate hardship to being beated by gamers:

I played that scenario dozens of times and always it ended up with the "GAME AI" winning (sometimes it ends the game with a collective defeat of all the players / nemesis in less than 12 or 15 turns - due to Corruption gained by gamers or by the Sol System tier)...

 

What's wrong then with that Scenario ?!?

How can I beat it ?!?

It seems the FFG needs to rewrite and playtest it better this time because the way it is now it is quite unbeatable (in less than 12 turns you cannot level up and gain assets and relics so useful to beat the scenario itself (avoiding the Sol Sys tier to became filled with Corruption Cards or by defeating Abaddon himself !!!).

 

 

If you think it is beatable may you tell me how did you beat it ?!? How many characters / nemesis did you use to beat it ?  What tactics and strategies best fit it ?!?

 

 

See you soon

 

IvanB

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Hey Ivan,

 

I've only had the chance to play this scenario once before. There was myself plus three friends, we were all playing characters. Our game went for quite a while, much longer than twelve turns.

 

After our game we discussed it and came to the following conclusion.

 

It is a very hard scenario. The more characters, the better. I'll explain why.

 

This is a cooperative scenario. And it requires everyone to work together. The best way to do that is by setting designated tasks to certain characters.
Depending on which characters appear you will need to decide who will do what. Get your most combat orientated character to level up as quickly as possible and obtain a relic. That characters sole purpose is getting into the ring with Abaddon. He's actually not that hard to beat.

Everyone else is on damage control and characters who can best utilise corruption must be tasked with this critical job. It is up to all of these characters to 'absorb' the corruption on the HoT board and discard it when they can. If a character is starting to get corrupted they must leave and go to the respective spaces to dispose of it.

 

Easier said than done, I know. Another small tip is to target one threat deck and this can be helped by payers aiming for certain threat icons to draw them without the corruption being placed.

 

Now, onto Nemesis.

 

I haven't played this scenario with a Nemesis but I imagine it would be a nightmare. Especially if you have either the Daemonette or Dire Avenger running around. If there is a Nemesis running around, a player should be tasked with focusing on them as much as possible.

 

I hope that helps. Best of luck.

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We succeeded against the scenario, albeit we only got to play it once.

 

One of the big deal, i think, is that we had my wife playing the Canoness (she always does) and another player got the Navigator at random. Both those can toy a bit more with corruption than other characters, so this may explain our success.

 

Obviously, with a Nemesis on the board, the scenario is completely nuts as mentionned above, and i wouldn't introduce a nemesis unless there was 5 characters already. The scenario is co-op for a reason.

Edited by Oakwolf

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Hey Ivan,

 

I've only had the chance to play this scenario once before. There was myself plus three friends, we were all playing characters. Our game went for quite a while, much longer than twelve turns.

 

After our game we discussed it and came to the following conclusion.

 

It is a very hard scenario. The more characters, the better. I'll explain why.

 

This is a cooperative scenario. And it requires everyone to work together. The best way to do that is by setting designated tasks to certain characters.

Depending on which characters appear you will need to decide who will do what. Get your most combat orientated character to level up as quickly as possible and obtain a relic. That characters sole purpose is getting into the ring with Abaddon. He's actually not that hard to beat.

Everyone else is on damage control and characters who can best utilise corruption must be tasked with this critical job. It is up to all of these characters to 'absorb' the corruption on the HoT board and discard it when they can. If a character is starting to get corrupted they must leave and go to the respective spaces to dispose of it.

 

Easier said than done, I know. Another small tip is to target one threat deck and this can be helped by payers aiming for certain threat icons to draw them without the corruption being placed.

 

Now, onto Nemesis.

 

I haven't played this scenario with a Nemesis but I imagine it would be a nightmare. Especially if you have either the Daemonette or Dire Avenger running around. If there is a Nemesis running around, a player should be tasked with focusing on them as much as possible.

 

I hope that helps. Best of luck.

 

Hi my friend... NOPE !!!

No way to beat this scenario !!! I don't believe who says the contrary !!! It is a mess in my opinion... I also found that the yellow threat deck has fewer "Corruptive Enemies" (read it "Chaos Aligned Enemies") to draw from...

The only way to beat the scenario (I found it this strategy while testing some House Ruling to make the scenario playable) is to use all the following Characters + the Eldar Nemesis :

1 - CANONESS (she is the sole to have "threshold 8" and "no activation skill" to face more corruption than average players are able to do)

2 - SPACE MARINE ENVOY / COMMANDER (use him to face Red Threat Deck Enemies and explloit his "no activation skills" when forced to draw corruption

3 - THE INQUISITOR: to face Corruption in the Sol Tier and give close support to the Marines' Commander and Canoness while they face Red Threats and enemies in the Sol System / Inner Region

4 - THE MEDIC SISTER OF BATTLE (she can "keep the beaters alive" and give support when facing Corruption and Corrupted Spaces into the Halls of Terra Board

5 - THE NAVIGATOR Nobleman (or Woman ?!? That character seems quite a bit "Transgender" to me and my cousins that play with me !!! LOL... No way... It doesn't matter but it is a funny thing to talk about sometimes) to face Corrupted Spaces and Corruption Cards (since she / he can discharge Corruption Cards in order to move WHERE he / she feels the need to go !!! USE THIS CHARACTER WISELY CAUSE IT CAN REALLY TURN THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH; FALLING INTO THE GRIP OF ABADDON / CHAOS OR WIPING OUT EACH AND EVERY CORRUPTION CARD FROM THE SOL SYSTEM TIERS !!! MOST IMPORTANT - USE THIS ONE TO AID / SUPPORT THE ELDAR NEMESIS (WHICH, IN THIS CASE AND ONLY FOR THIS SCENARIO'S PURPOSES AND "GOOD ENDING" MUST... UNDERLINED "MUST"... ACT AS A "GOOD CHARACTER ADDED TO FACE CHAOS" AND COME IN SUPPORT TO THE HUMANS (AS INTO THE WH40000 WORLD AND BOOKS HAPPENS FOR "REAL")...

6 - THE ELDAR NEMESIS - IT MUST BE SEEN AS THE SOLE CHANCE "TO WIN THE DAY" AND "BEAT ON THE TIME" ABADDON AND HIS CHAOS MINIONS (WITH A WISE USE OF IT, IN FACT, THE "GOOD

      FELLOWS" CAN WIN... OTHERWISE THEY ARE CONDAMNED TO FALL); I WILL EXPLAIN IT...

      HOW, THEN, YOU CAN EXPLOIT THE ELDAR CHARACTER TO BEAT THIS SCENARIO, YOU MAY ASK... MORE SIMPLE TO DO THAN TO EXPLAIN:

 

PUMP THE "INFAMY CLOCK" OF THE ELDAR "UNSOLICITED HELPER" AS QUICK AS YOU CAN (EXPECIALLY BY "THE WANTED ACTING" OF ALL...UNDERLINED "ALL"... THE OTHER IMPERIAL CHARACTERS, WHICH MUST COOPERATE WITH THE ELDAR; LIKE A TEAM THAT SENDS HIS BEST PLAYER TO SIGN A SCORE TO WIN THE MATCH (BY HELPING THE ELDAR TO PUMP UP HIS INFAMY CLOCK THE ELDAR WINS, OK... BUT THE IMPERIUM CAN STILL SEE THE NEW DAWN ALIVE, JUST TO FIGHT CHAOS ANOTHER DAY AND BETTER PREPARED... BUT, HOWEVER, STILL ALIVE (WHICH IS THE REAL GOAL IF YOU WANT TO BEAT THIS SCENARIO AND ABADDON)  !!!

 

I ALSO POST THE HOUSE RULES YOU CAN ADD TO HELP THE "GOOD FELLOWS" TO WIN;

THEY ARE THE FOLLOWING (AT LEAST THE ONES I USE):

 

1 - INSTEAD OF SPENDING 6 TROPHY POINTS TO LEVEL UP YOU NOW NEED ONLY 3 OF THEM TO GO FROM THE LEVEL 1 UP TO THE FIRST LEVEL INTO WHICH YOU GAIN "+1" TO YOUR "POWER LIMIT

     THRESHOLD" (ALL INVOLVED AND SUGGESTED IMPERIAL CHARACTERS DO POSSESS THIS "SKILL"); 4 POINTS WHEN YOU FACE THE SECOND PASSAGE, THEN 5 AND 6 TROPHY POINTS ONCE YOU 

     FACE THE THIRD AND THE LAST "POWER LIMIT INCREASING".

2 - At the end of setup allow Imperial Characters to draw one free Wargear Card for each of them and then allow them to redistribute the cards drawn in order to give a better starting position to each of them (since

     the Noble Navigator and the Medic Sister are REALLY FEEBLE at the very start - and also the Space Marine is, if he must face Cunning Based Threats)

3 - Allow ALL Imperial Players to spend the 3 "Eagle tokens of Requisition", they are given during setup, to draw 1 CARD from the deck of Relics (hoping that at least one of them draws the "Fallen Saint's Bones" or

     a similar item... Which can REALLY HELP him to face Corruption without remorse or fear to fall too soon into chaos grasp or to stay loyal to the Imperium even with tons of Corruption Cards "eaten & digested" !!!

     LOL)

 

 

HOPING YOU WILL TRY THESE SUGGESTION AND GIVE ME FEEDBACKS I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST...

BYE !!!

 

AND ---

 

--- HAVE FUN !!!

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Have you had any luck since posting this? Or are you still finding the same problems?

 

ANOTHER SERIES OF TIPS YOU CAN USE TO HELP THE ELDAR NEMESIS AND THE CHARACTERS ALL "COALIZED TOGHETER AGAINST CHAOS" IS THE FOLLOWING:

 

1 - EXPLOIT ALL THE "ELDAR NEMESIS DECK" 'S CARDS - EXPECIALLY THE ITEM THAT CAN HELP YOU "FORECAST" THE ENEMIES ON THE THREAT DECKS AND THE "UNSOLICITED AID" CARD, WHICH ALLOWS ALL THE PLAYERS TO SEE "WHAT COMES NEXT" BY MAKING THE FIRST CARD OF EACH THREAT DECK TO BE TURNED FACEUP (SO YOU CAN WISELY DRAW ONLY CARDS THAT "GO DOWN EASILY" AND DON'T FORCE THE CORRUPTION CARDS TO APPEAR ONTO THE SPACES IN THE SOL TIER !!!    ;-p        **** TRICKY AND HANDY OK, BUT ALSO **** FIT TO THE WAY THE ELDARS ACT IN THE WH 40K UNIVERSE AND BOOKS / NOVELS !!!       ;-p       SEE AND READ IT TO BELIEVE IT !!!)       IT IS ALSO FUNNY AND REALLY MUTATES THE RELIC MATCHES INTO SOMETHING MORE SIMILAR TO AN RPG GAME THAN TO A NORMAL BOARDGAME !!!   YOU ALSO GREATLY FEEL "THE INCOMING DEATH" FOR ALL THE IMPERIUM AND THIS ADDS PACE AND ATMOSPHERE TO EACH RELIC SESSION !!!    TRY IT AND TELL ME IF IT IS NOT SO !!! I CHALLENGE YOU TO SAY THE OPPOSITE !!! LOL

2 - EXPLOIT THE FEW "RECONAISSANCE" POWER CARDS VERY VERY VERY WISELY (AND MAYBE ALLOWING THE WHOLE TEAM OF GOOD PLAYERS TO BECAME AWARE OF THE INCOMING CARDS INSTEAD THE SINGLE PLAYER USING THE POWER CARDS AS THE NORMAL CARD TEXT AND MATCHES' RULES  DO STATE...)

3 - USE THE INQUISITOR "LEVELING UPS"  TO ABSORB "MINOR HELPING" CORRUPTION CARDS SUCH AS "BEWEAPONED EXTREMITIES" OR "EXTRA ARMS" IN ORDER TO USE MORE WEAPONS AND ADD SOME "CHEATS" WHEN YOU LAUNCH DICE DURING COMBAT - SINCE YOU CAN NOW "ADD + X" TO EACH OF YOUR LAUNCH !!!    ;-p    AND IT IS A FUNNY WAY TO REVERT AGAINST CHAOS AND ABADDON THE WEAPONS AND "PRIZES" THEY GIFTED YOU WHILE THEY STRIVE TO CORRUPT AND CURSE YOUR CHARACTER'S SOUL !!!   (Can you see the face of Abaddon while he is wiped out in combat thanks to the so called "GIFTS from the Chaos GODS" you now possess ?!?    UNPAIRABLE AND TERRIBLY FUNNY !!!  IT HAS NO PRICE SUCH A SIGHT !!!)

4 - IF the Inquisitor is falling to his knees due to Corruption Cards absorbed he can easily level up; and discard some of them in the process (as the Sister Medic and the Navigator can do but better than the Inquisitor). If you "need to take a breath" while you use the Inquisitor now you have the solution to part of your problems... Try to turn the GIFTS of Chaos (Corruption Cards) against Chaos itself and ger rid of the few "extra corruption" you can face by leveling up (maybe you will find the House Rules I suggested in the former thread quite useful now... In addiction... Those rules now can simulate in a better way the normal leveling up you can see in each rpg or videogame in which you characters have to "level up" gaining or spending experience / trophy points !!!)

 

Hope this will help you taste better this HARD scenario (euphemism which instead means "ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT") !!!         LOL

 

FAREWELL AND HAVE FUN

Edited by IvanB

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My mates and I will be taking on this scenario on again tomorrow night. There are 6 of us and we'll all be playing characters. I'll let you know how we go.

We'll be playing by strict rules of Relic too. No homebrew.

Edited by VX485

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4 Players. We had 2 games with this scenario. We lost both times.

 

The second game we got a lot closer to beating it, however that I feel that was because we decided to choose our characters.

 

By far the hardest scenario in the game, I'm going to do some more research and see if I can find out anything pertinent to help with this scenario.

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4 Players. We had 2 games with this scenario. We lost both times.

 

The second game we got a lot closer to beating it, however that I feel that was because we decided to choose our characters.

 

By far the hardest scenario in the game, I'm going to do some more research and see if I can find out anything pertinent to help with this scenario.

How many times have you played and beaten the Scenario Dark Crusade ?!?

Not so much I suppose...

Am I not right ?!?

 

Tell me more about your attempts in beating it and tell me how you did if you ever get the chance to beat it...

I still try to beat it by "playing and playtesting" it at least one time for each 15 / 20 days and I still have to beat it with Imperium Characters...

The only time I beated it I used a mix of 5 Imperial Chars + The Eldar Nemesis (and the nemesis was the winner since it reached 25 infamy due to the abnormal amount of corruption cards / tokens gained by the Imperial side as a whole... But I accepted it since in the Games Workshop lores the Dark Crusade was and is always portraied as a total destruption for the Humans and Mankind unity; taken only at bay by the unespected and unslicited aid of the Eldar race... And you can find some Nemesis Eldar Cards referring to such "themed" scenario and lore...

 

I wait your replies and I wish you a merry xmas and good 2016 if you will not read this before them to arrive...

Bye

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Since I finally added HoT and decided to give Black Crusade  scenario some runs despite Ivan's best efforts to paint it as a bogeyman, will have to disagree with him about it being broken. 8 plays in, 2 wins, both by Imperial players, not the Nemesis (playing 2+1); actually the Nemesis have struggled for some reason, even Githellion. Average duration rounds to 28 rounds, shortest being 15 rounds, longest 38, one of the wins coming on round 37. Even the 15-round game felt beatable, probably as the Rogue Trader had 2 Relics and effective Str of 11 in battle even at that early stage. I would say all 8 plays have felt winnable, keep left with the feeling of just a little luckier and this could've been won.

 

First win was Sanctioned Psyker vs Storm Trooper Sergeant vs Moarn Goreheart. Nemesis came close to winning, being on 20 infamy before hitting a string of horrible results that saw him get vanquished. Psyker with max 12 Willpower + Hammer of Brother Scaras + Arch-Militant was 16 Willpower in combat, meaning Abaddon had to explode to even make him roll a die.

 

Second win was Eversor vs Callidus vs Githellion. Eversor got Debaser and hit the Confrontation with 12 lives, burning them to keep rolling two dice, still came down to the final combat, him being down to 1 life and having picked up an additional Corruption card. Game really should've ended 3-4 turns earlier, but the Threat decks kept trolling, despite Living Tome Wargear (which is REALLY, REALLY good in this one, letting you look at the top card of each Threat deck), all the top cards kept coming as daemon/heretic/traitor and dragged it out. Callidus had cleared her Corruption once by passing through the Eternity Gate on the Imperial Palace Tier, then picked up Vessel of St. Basileus (3 charges, discard a charge to discard all your Corruption), having two charges off that, boosting Githellion up to 19 infamy after he was vanquished on 13 infamy earlier.

 

In addition to Living Tome Wargear and the Vessel of St. Basileus Relic, there is of course the Bones of a Fallen Saint Relic, which especially if combined with Ancient Orrery (can move up to your movement roll) can turn a character into a Corruption vacuum cleaner, pick up and discard. Actually the Bones came up in one of the games, unfortunately, they were picked up by the Imperial Fists Terminator while he was on the Middle Tier, he could not make it to the Sol Tier in time, slightly different positioning and that game could've easily been won. Reconnaissance Power card doesn't normally get much use for its ability, far more used as its number 2 to auto-pass skill tests where only a 1 would fail, but in this one, it comes in handy. There's another Relic, Secret Ark or something that lets you look at the top of one Threat deck at the end of your turn and put the card on the bottom if you want to, combined with Living Tome could be very nice.

 

Imperial characters need to hit the Sol Tier to pick up Corruption to lengthen the game. Despite all the Corruption out there, nobody has yet been Corrupted in the eight plays, again contrary to what Ivan wrote about in another thread. Grab 3-4 Corruption (Canoness might pick up even 6-7), then exit, trying to hit the Antian Shrine World <-> Apothecarium Sepha axis to try and clear them, or if opportunity presents, use the Eternity Gate.

 

Other than the Sol Tier excursion, haven't felt like this scenario changes the playstyle/approach all that much. Threat deck flips are an educated gamble without some of the cards mentioned above. If you get a character that can choose their attribute boosts (instead of getting fixed gains), focus on one attribute, max it out, trying to get a Relic ASAP and rush the Confrontation. Willpower is probably the preferred attribute, given the test at the Garden of Nurgle is a Willpower one and failing it nets you a Corruption card, which in turn give Abaddon +3 battle score per Corruption, so even one Corruption makes him an effective 11.

 

My logs for Black Crusade scenario:

 

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/plays/thing/128442?userid=166107&date=2016-05

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I played this scenario today with only two players and had success. I played the Navigator while my friend played the Terminator. It wasn't that hard; I stayed on top of the corruption cards in the Sol tier while the Terminator leveled up and eventually punched Abbadon in his face.

Your chatacters that can deal with corruption have to go to the Sol Tier practically at game start. Also, don't forget you can spend your faction symbols as two influence to pay for items or the tiles where you can boost your rolls; they're earned back fast enough on the side board.

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