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Metsys509

I don't move him, I move his belt?

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One of my players wanted to use move on one of the hunters from the game to bring him in close. I told him he couldn't move anything bigger than an average backpack or boot and he had the idea to instead of moving him, to move one of his articles of clothing to bring him in.

I couldn't really think of a reason why that wouldn't work so I let it go and he pulled him in from short range to kill the hunter. I must have made a mistake when I allowed that but I can't really think of a reason why it wouldn't work.

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Your instincts are correct: basic physics is why it wouldn't work. Otherwise what's stop him moving a landspeeder by pulling on the windscreen wiper? Toppling an AT-ST walker by pulling on one of those window flaps it has? Moving a planet by sticking a nail in the ground and pulling on the nail?

 

He can only move a small item because that's the amount of force he can exert with the Force. If he pulls on the belt, the weight of the hunter pulls back. Two things can happen then. Either the belt rips and flies to him, or the belt stays put because the hunter doesn't move. The tug might unbalance the hunter just as you'd unbalance someone by yanking their belt but the hunter isn't going to go flying through the air. If he does fly through the air then the player is exerting enough force to pull the hunter, which the rules say he can't do because the hunter is too heavy to move.

 

A good way to visualise this is what would happen if he pulled the belt physically? Being strong enough to lift the belt doesn't make you strong enough to lift the belt and the hunter.

Edited by Blue Five

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Blue Five has it right. In particular his example show you why he needed the strength upgrade. If he's not strong enough to pull the person, he's not strong enough to pull the belt+person.

 

This reeks of cheese and goes against the spirit of the rules.

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With anything like that I would use the resisting power rules, an opposed skill check: Discipline versus a skill determined by the GM. In the example you have given I would make it an opposed Discipline/Athletics check. 

 

Even if the attacking character won they would at best pull the hunter off balance unless they had the Talent: Draw Closer, from the Niman Disciple tree which is largely designed for that very effect. In fact I had this very thing happen with my group last night as I was running through Lure of the Lost.

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How about upgrade the difficulty?

Oh right they don't use narrative dice when using the force, a mistake but I'm hoping to figure out why eventually!

So add an extra force point per difference in silhouette between the size of the belt and the body they're shifting.

Still worth noting for the next time they try this, just remember adding a force point to the difficulty isn't saying no its noting the weight difference!

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How about upgrade the difficulty?

Oh right they don't use narrative dice when using the force, a mistake but I'm hoping to figure out why eventually!

So add an extra force point per difference in silhouette between the size of the belt and the body they're shifting.

Still worth noting for the next time they try this, just remember adding a force point to the difficulty isn't saying no its noting the weight difference!

You need the Strength upgrade to be able to do that, though. The base power allows you to move a silhouette 0 item/character at short range. In order to move a bigger silhouette target, you need to spend XP to get the upgrade—same as if you wanted to extend the range.

-EF

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You guys are right, this is gonna be hard to deny in the future now but i'll handle it. Thanks guys, if he tries this again I'm gonna have him snap the thing he pulls completely off.

 

 

...and then he'll just start pulling at hands and feet, snapping those off too, or start yanking blasters.  But I'd say that kind of usage is fully in the realm of the Control upgrade to break things or pull things out of people's grasp, so you're doubling up.  If you allow this, he'll have nothing to grow into.

 

I think it's simpler, easier, and more consistent to just explain it was a one-off (maybe the Force was really strong with him that day), and that from now on basic physics still applies.  If you're Moving a thing that's attached to another thing, you're Moving both.  If it's attached by anything stronger than sewing thread, it will need an opposed difficulty roll.

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How about upgrade the difficulty?

Oh right they don't use narrative dice when using the force, a mistake but I'm hoping to figure out why eventually!

You can, and should, utilize the other narrative dice and opposed skill checks as appropriate when it comes to Force use. This is supported by the rules all the way back since EotE (see the Influence power for how it works), and expounded upon in FaD.

 

So add an extra force point per difference in silhouette between the size of the belt and the body they're shifting.

Yes, they can do this, once they purchase the required Strength upgrades. Until then, doesn't matter how many Force points you generate, you are limited by your feeble skills.*

 

 

*As in, "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of my belt buckle."

Edited by awayputurwpn

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I'd have got the player to roll a yellow dice. Any result but a triumph, the merc is unbalanced and gets a srtb back to bext action. A triumph would mean that the merc is completely surprised by the space wizard stuff he falls prone AND gets a setback.

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"You Pull off his belt and his pants fall down. He stares angrily at you, business hanging out in the wind."

 

Because there's no underwear in space?

 

 

Rumors only, but the Empire denies that underwear ever existed. Those executed by the Empire for speaking out about underwear were confirmed by their mothers to have died cleanly and never to have dirtied their non-existent underwear.

Edited by shoes

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Your instincts are correct: basic physics is why it wouldn't work. Otherwise what's stop him moving a landspeeder by pulling on the windscreen wiper? Toppling an AT-ST walker by pulling on one of those window flaps it has? Moving a planet by sticking a nail in the ground and pulling on the nail?

 

He can only move a small item because that's the amount of force he can exert with the Force. If he pulls on the belt, the weight of the hunter pulls back. Two things can happen then. Either the belt rips and flies to him, or the belt stays put because the hunter doesn't move. The tug might unbalance the hunter just as you'd unbalance someone by yanking their belt but the hunter isn't going to go flying through the air. If he does fly through the air then the player is exerting enough force to pull the hunter, which the rules say he can't do because the hunter is too heavy to move.

 

A good way to visualise this is what would happen if he pulled the belt physically? Being strong enough to lift the belt doesn't make you strong enough to lift the belt and the hunter.

 

Science FTW.

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Ugh... classic player rule-bending tactics...

If they tried that with me, they'd end up with the hunters belt in their hand, but shot by the hunter who was still at range. (and that's if they succeed with the roll, given at least one black die extra for pulling something off that's attached to someones body)

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Sounds like teh trick we use in the military- not allowed to engage enemy personnel with heavy weapons?  No problem- we are allowed to engage their equipment.  I was firing at the jeep behind that squad of goons- not the goons....

 

I think the main concern here is whether the player was intentionally looking for a loophole.  If he was, I'd let him do it but slam some good old conflict his way- as he's chosen the quick easy path to power....

 

But f he's just trying to learn the rules, go with what Whafrog said and just explain that it's a learning experience and he must have had the force with him that day but in the future he'll need to put some effort into practice and work his way up to a result like that.

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