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drbraininajar

Move Power: When To Set The Difficulty?

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Unlike other attack rolls, Move's difficulty can quite drastically change based on what upgrades the character chooses to activate during the check. My question is, when is the most appropriate time to set the difficulty of a Move check, and how would you adjudicate it?

 

Obviously, if a character says "I'm going to try to move those 2 tables and huck them at those two groups of stormtroopers", then their intent clearly says they're trying to Auto-Fire a pair of Sil 1 objects, and the difficulty is PP. If they get the necessary FP to do it, then it happens. If they don't, they'll have to make do with what they can manage with what they rolled. I'd narrate it as them either only managing to lift one object, or switching their focus to two smaller objects, etc.

 

Now, suppose a character says "I'm going to try to hurl that trash can at one group of troopers." That's a single Sil 0 object, so no purple dice, right? Then what if they get enough FP to activate upgrades? Let them do it without any extra dice, since they already made the roll? Roll any added difficulty yourself and add the results to the pool? Don't let them use any upgrades at all, and chalk it up to risk/reward?

 

Currently, the Move power user in the group isn't strong enough to do any of that, but I want to be ready with some method of adjudicating this that makes sense.

Edited by drbraininajar

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I am afraid to reply to this topic...haha

 

First, the player would activate the move power, so no matter what, it is successfully activated. The player can decide not to hurl anything. Once the player knows how many pips they have (including DP flips), they decide how to spend them. They should declare this at the same time. They can't use a few pips to do hurl, see the result, then decide to use a few more pips for an upgrade.

 

Does that make sense?

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It's a risk/reward thing, I think.

 

You have the player roll their skill pool (Discipline) against the highest difficulty they want to attempt (say, autofiring silhouette 1 objects at targets who are taking cover behind a wall). They include their Force power check with this pool.

 

So let's say they Succeed the skill check with 2 Success, but only generate enough FPs to move a single silhouette 1 object within medium range OR two silhouette 1 objects within short range. However, they are missing 2 Advantage, so can't activate autofire. So they are left with hurling the single silhouette 1 object at medium range, for a total of 12 damage against one of their targets. 

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Despite that the rules say to do the roll simultaneously, after using it as a primary attack ability, I highly recommend rolling to activate first, then rolling Discipline to attack.  Partially, it's because you don't know the difficulty dice until you know what you're Moving.

 

The person using Move should only declare, "I'm activating Move" then roll FR.  The dice have 2 different ways for you to potentially fail the roll.  By declaring your target ahead of time, you're increasing the likelihood of failure.

 

May not be RAW, but it's certainly a lot more fun.

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Per page 195 of the beta, you roll your Force dice first, then spend your Force points. Meaning the player says, "I'm activating Move" not "I'm slamming the table into the troopers." Once move has been activated, and the force die/dice rolled, you spend your points on the power and upgrades.

Of course, once the Force points have been spent, the player can then say, "I'm slamming the table into the troopers!" And rolls Discipline with the appropriate difficulty dice.

-EF

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That's not what I'm seeing on that page. I'm seeing that you still roll the Force Dice and the attack roll dice simultaneously, which means that the difficulty should still happen at that time. Everything's telling me that the risk/reward approach is the way to go.

 

Related sub-question: If a player rolls their check and succeeds on the Discipline roll but doesn't use any Force Points (because they don't want to eat Conflict for Dark Side, for example), how do you adjudicate the check results? I've been letting that player heal strain with the successes, and use advantage as normal. Some advice on that would also be helpful.

NOTE: I don't use the "you have to use whatever Force Points you get no matter what" house rule, and don't intend to, so don't advise that.

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Generally the intent of the rules is to include the dice for any related skill checks at the same time you're rolling your Force dice to activate a power, but in the case of attacking with Move, EldritchFire's suggestion will probably work for the best.

 

That way, the player determines what they are actually doing with the power (could very well be they don't generate enough Force Points to quite do what they initially intended), and then set the difficulty for the Discipline check.

 

That being said, this approach could result in an issue (degree of severity is going to vary depending on player in question) where the player may have flipped a Destiny Point to convert dark side pips into Force Points, and only then find out they bombed the Discipline check; in effect the player just wasted a Destiny Point, burned strain and earned Conflict for exactly nothing.  The reason that the designers have player roll both Force dice and skill dice at the same time is to avoid that kind of situation, but if you're going to have the player make the Discipline check after when using Move to attack, you may want to discuss the potential for this situation to occur ahead of time.  Some players may be perfectly fine with letting the dice fall where they may, and if they failed the Discipline check, then the cost paid in Destiny/Conflict/strain remains, while others might be varying degrees of upset that they've used valuable resources and got nothing out of it.  And really, the only "right" solution is the one that you and the players at your table agree upon.

 

Edit: Corrected the first paragraph to credit the correct poster.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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Regardless of what book says as a GM I like the force activation happening first. Then deciding what to do with the activation results. However I have instituted that the player should have in mind what they want to do as a maximum since I make a 5 second rule for using this pips since I want the force to be flowing and the game as well

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I'm with Dono. In the situation of:

 

Now, suppose a character says "I'm going to try to hurl that trash can at one group of troopers." That's a single Sil 0 object, so no purple dice, right? Then what if they get enough FP to activate upgrades?

Then... oh well. The player aimed low and succeeded low. It's really not all that different then if you'd decided to shoot the stormtrooper at short range instead of the one at long range. Even if you roll a pile of Success that would have easily offset the possible difficulty of Long range... you already made your decision and caste the dice.

 

It kinda stinks, but it's a relatively minor stink the player had full control over... and they did after all still accomplish exactly the goal they set for themselves, so there's not that much to really get upset about....

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I'm with Dono. In the situation of:

 

Now, suppose a character says "I'm going to try to hurl that trash can at one group of troopers." That's a single Sil 0 object, so no purple dice, right? Then what if they get enough FP to activate upgrades?

Then... oh well. The player aimed low and succeeded low. It's really not all that different then if you'd decided to shoot the stormtrooper at short range instead of the one at long range. Even if you roll a pile of Success that would have easily offset the possible difficulty of Long range... you already made your decision and caste the dice.

 

It kinda stinks, but it's a relatively minor stink the player had full control over... and they did after all still accomplish exactly the goal they set for themselves, so there's not that much to really get upset about....

It's for reasons like this in my games, when a player wants to use a Force power, be it Move, Foresee, Seek, Bind, or any other power present or future, I let them simply say that their action is to activate that power, and then figure out what they are doing based upon the Force points generated.

 

So for the PC in quoted example, I'd simply revise that to "okay, you're activating the Move power, so roll me some Force dice and let's see what you get."  If she gets the single Force point, than it's a Sil 0 trashcan at a minion group of stormtroopers at short range.  If she gets three Force points, then I'd allow her to activate whichever upgrades she feels are appropriate, be it Magnitude to hurl up multiple trash cans or attack multiple groups (since it is treated as an autofire attack), Strength to hurl something really big, or some combination in-between (such as activating both Magnitude and Strength upgrades to hurl a bunch of much larger objects).

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So for the PC in quoted example, I'd simply revise that to "okay, you're activating the Move power, so roll me some Force dice and let's see what you get."  If she gets the single Force point, than it's a Sil 0 trashcan at a minion group of stormtroopers at short range.  If she gets three Force points, then I'd allow her to activate whichever upgrades she feels are appropriate, be it Magnitude to hurl up multiple trash cans or attack multiple groups (since it is treated as an autofire attack), Strength to hurl something really big, or some combination in-between (such as activating both Magnitude and Strength upgrades to hurl a bunch of much larger objects).

 

 

So this would be the skill check taking place after the Force roll, right? So that you know what to set the difficulty at for silhouette/autofire?

 

I do find the RAW a little unsatisfying for this specific application of the Move power, although I admit I've never had a problem with it myself.

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So for the PC in quoted example, I'd simply revise that to "okay, you're activating the Move power, so roll me some Force dice and let's see what you get."  If she gets the single Force point, than it's a Sil 0 trashcan at a minion group of stormtroopers at short range.  If she gets three Force points, then I'd allow her to activate whichever upgrades she feels are appropriate, be it Magnitude to hurl up multiple trash cans or attack multiple groups (since it is treated as an autofire attack), Strength to hurl something really big, or some combination in-between (such as activating both Magnitude and Strength upgrades to hurl a bunch of much larger objects).

 

 

So this would be the skill check taking place after the Force roll, right? So that you know what to set the difficulty at for silhouette/autofire?

 

I do find the RAW a little unsatisfying for this specific application of the Move power, although I admit I've never had a problem with it myself.

 

Correct, I'd have the player make the Discipline check after they'd determined what the effects of activating the Move power were.

 

I guess it comes down to just how strict the GM wants to be with their players when it comes to activating Force powers.  I've seen posts in threads where the GM holds their player to a certain specified result, such as "Use Move to hurl two of the goons at the BBEG" (Move basic + Magnitude Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = 3 FP) and then tell they player they're SOL because they only generated 2 Force points, meaning their entire turn was wasted and the Discipline roll made at the same time (which might have succeeded or generated Advantage that could be used elsewhere) was discounted simply because they fell just shy of the FP needed for their stated action.  Or worse yet, saw a case where a PC wanted to use Enhance to leap over a chasm (total distance = medium range) as their action, and when they came up one Force point shy (rolling 1 Force die, which came up with 1 dark side pip), the GM had the character leap to their demise.

 

To me, that sort of attitude is exactly the kind of thing a GM shouldn't be doing, so say nothing of all three rulebooks saying that when it comes to Force powers, the player rolls their Force dice and then determines what effect the power has, rather than stating the effect and then seeing if the dice cooperate by providing enough Force points.

 

Admittedly, with opposed checks vs. Force powers now officially a thing (at least under certain circumstances), things might get trickier, and thus (for me at least) it might be worth having players roll Force dice first, determine effect based on Force points, and then roll a Discipline (or whatever other skill is called for) afterwards.   Although things like Enhance's skill boost effects and Influence's Control Upgrade to boost social skills are probably fine, since those aspects of the power enhance the skill check the PC is already making.

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Generally the intent of the rules is to include the dice for any related skill checks at the same time you're rolling your Force dice to activate a power, but in the case of attacking with Move, FuriousGreg's suggestion will probably work for the best.

Hey how did I get into this?  :P

EldritchFire's comment is how I do it though so maybe you were reading my mind...

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Well, with the risk/reward model, if they didn't get enough FP to do what they wanted then I wouldn't just call it a flat fail. I'd let them adjust their focus to whatever nearby target fits the amount of FP they rolled. In the "throw two troopers at the bad guy" example, if they only got 2 FP, they could easily throw one trooper instead, or if they have the "pull weapons" upgrade, yank both troopers' weapons out and throw those. Heck, if they fail the Discipline check but get enough FP to pick up both troopers, Id be willing to say they were able to move them, just not with enough force to hurt anyone.

 

Ultimately, I have no compunctions about letting a player dial back their target on this one if they don't quite get enough to do what they tried to, as a means of mitigating some of the pitfalls of a risk/reward model. Also, I have no problem letting a player that aims low spend extra FP on Range upgrades, since those don't affect the difficulty.

 

I think I've talked myself into a risk/reward model anyway, but I can't help but feel like Move needed another pass, or some errata/clarification. Ah well. I'll try this out and see how it goes :)

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Or worse yet, saw a case where a PC wanted to use Enhance to leap over a chasm (total distance = medium range) as their action, and when they came up one Force point shy (rolling 1 Force die, which came up with 1 dark side pip), the GM had the character leap to their demise.

O_O

People actually do that? What do they do if you fail a ranged (light) check? Say you suddenly decided to reenact that one scene from the Deer Hunter?

Generally the intent of the rules is to include the dice for any related skill checks at the same time you're rolling your Force dice to activate a power, but in the case of attacking with Move, FuriousGreg's suggestion will probably work for the best.

Hey how did I get into this?   :P

EldritchFire's comment is how I do it though so maybe you were reading my mind...

Time for a new Avatar Portrait perhaps? Maybe something with bunnies... Edited by Ghostofman

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Keep in mind that the target of a Force power might dictate an opposed roll even if it's not necessary by default. Basic Influence against an inquisitor is not just a Force Die roll and then do strain. It's probably a Disc v Disc roll with the Force dice.

If you fail that skill check but have 3 Force pips it seems really forced to let them do anything else with the Force pips. It's a fail. I'm not going to let them use them on the guard next to the inquisitor.

I'm for a reasonably specific description before rolling, including target and object. After the roll I require a very good explanation if anything productive happens on a fail or lack of Force pips, allowing for triumph and advantage to sweeten the deal.

The GM has a ton of power here and with that we all need to understand implementations will vary.

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Keep in mind that the target of a Force power might dictate an opposed roll even if it's not necessary by default. Basic Influence against an inquisitor is not just a Force Die roll and then do strain. It's probably a Disc v Disc roll with the Force dice.

If you fail that skill check but have 3 Force pips it seems really forced to let them do anything else with the Force pips. It's a fail. I'm not going to let them use them on the guard next to the inquisitor.

I'm for a reasonably specific description before rolling, including target and object. After the roll I require a very good explanation if anything productive happens on a fail or lack of Force pips, allowing for triumph and advantage to sweeten the deal.

The GM has a ton of power here and with that we all need to understand implementations will vary.

 

In the method we used, after you roll FR and declare what you're activating with your pips, there's no going back.  Just like the normal dice results: roller declares the good results, the target declares the bad, play on.

 

The Disc v Disc roll you speak of would come after declaration of pips because the target(s) hasn't been declared yet.

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Ghostofman,

With the case of that one jackass GM, he was more of a "once you state your intended action, you're committed to it."  So a failed combat check to hit an opponent would just just be a failed combat check.

 

I cited that example of Enhance as an extreme one of where some GMs get trapped in the fallacy of "if you don't generate enough FP for the desired effect, then nothing happens even if you have enough FP for a lesser effect."

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Keep in mind that the target of a Force power might dictate an opposed roll even if it's not necessary by default. Basic Influence against an inquisitor is not just a Force Die roll and then do strain. It's probably a Disc v Disc roll with the Force dice.

If you fail that skill check but have 3 Force pips it seems really forced to let them do anything else with the Force pips. It's a fail. I'm not going to let them use them on the guard next to the inquisitor.

I'm for a reasonably specific description before rolling, including target and object. After the roll I require a very good explanation if anything productive happens on a fail or lack of Force pips, allowing for triumph and advantage to sweeten the deal.

The GM has a ton of power here and with that we all need to understand implementations will vary.

 

In the method we used, after you roll FR and declare what you're activating with your pips, there's no going back.  Just like the normal dice results: roller declares the good results, the target declares the bad, play on.

 

The Disc v Disc roll you speak of would come after declaration of pips because the target(s) hasn't been declared yet.

 

Precisely.

 

Once the player picks up and rolls those dice for the opposed Discipline vs Whatever check, they've made a social contract to accept the results of that roll be they good, bad, or little bit of both.  So in that case, if the PC generated sufficient Force Points to use Move to hurl a Silhoutte 1+ object at an Inquisitor that's standing at Medium Range, the object is still hurled and the Force Points spent, as the Discipline check only determines if you actually hit with the object.

 

If you tried to use Move to lift an Inquisitor and hurl them into a wall, it'd still be the opposed Discipline check, and if the PC fails then it would be a case of the Force power having zero effect, since the FaD Beta introduced the idea of the opposed check to counteract the usage of any Force power, be it Move, Influence, Misdirect, Bind, or any other power that could affect another target, even beneficial ones like Heal or Protect.  And in this instance, the Inquisitor was strong-willed enough to counter the desired effect.  Then again, some GMs might allow the Inquisitor to be moved from their location (how depends on if any Range Upgrades were also triggered as part of using the power), but no damage would be inflicted since the PC failed the Discipline check.

 

Like I said earlier, this is one of those things that the GM should discuss with their players, as there may be cases where the player flips a Destiny Point and suffers Conflict+strain to convert dark side pips into Force Points, only to then fail the skill check, leading to the player possibly feeling the Destiny Point was wasted and they'd have been better off simply letting the Force power fail due to insufficient Force Points.

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Hmm. In the case of Force Leap and not generating enough results, I think I'd tell somebody, 'You get a terrible feeling about this jump, and decide not to do it. What do you do instead?'

Edited by Angelalex242

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Hmm. In the case of Force Leap and not generating enough results, I think I'd tell somebody, 'You get a terrible feeling about this jump, and decide not to do it. What do you do instead?'

 

Since all the rolls in the game aren't binary pass or fail (even if they don't generate Adv/Threats) when a Player rolls because they aren't just rolling for the results of their PC's action but the scene itself along with the PC's action (which is why you can spend Adv/Threats etc. of other things within the scene). So you the way I describe it is that the PC could have activated their power but the result wasn't as the PC wanted, such as instead of leaping extra distance they only leaped a normal-ish distance but didn't get as far as they wanted so they didn't reach the objective (i.e.. didn't increase a range band or make it to the other side of the chasm). So the Player would place their PC as if they had done a normal move, or in the case of a leap across a chasm it would depend on the Adv/Threat's etc.

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