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Possible Turret nerf

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A barrel roll and/or boost on a PS 9 small base ship is no where near Super Dash's maneuver dial ignoring shenanigans. Every single turn a Super Dash player will do a 1 green bank, see where all of your ships move, and then shenanigan halfway across the map in the other direction.

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A barrel roll and/or boost on a PS 9 small base ship is no where near Super Dash's maneuver dial ignoring shenanigans. Every single turn a Super Dash player will do a 1 green bank, see where all of your ships move, and then shenanigan halfway across the map in the other direction.

 

I hate to break it to you, but that's not true at all. A PTL PS 7+ Interceptor can easily keep up with Dash's movements depending on rock placement. Honestly, the distance you move with a large based ship boost/barrel-roll isn't much different than a small-base ship, especially when you consider that a single range band is two and a half small-base ship lengths.

 

Dash needs his movement to keep people out of the donut hole, or it would be hilariously easy to take him down.

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A barrel roll and/or boost on a PS 9 small base ship is no where near Super Dash's maneuver dial ignoring shenanigans.

And nerfing turrets will do exactly Jack about that.

Myself if I were in charge I'd make 2 fairly small changes.

Zero is not a valid guess with C-3PO, and Large ships can't take Engine Upgrade. Yes I know that screws over shuttles, but IMO it's worth it.

Edited by VanorDM

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For me,   I really find playing against them somewhat boring.   

 

I already posted in another thread about my regionial and how boring it was since I faced 6 PWT turret list.   Yes I went 4-2 with my Biggs Keywes list, blocking them and using standard tactics to beat them(Yes they can be beaten), but frankly almost all the games were pretty boring.     It was the most boring regional I have been too.

 

They are slightly overpowered and no one will deny that, but the problem is that they really make the game boring.   For people who were used to the old meta, where you had to out think your opponent.      If you nerf them so they only get +1 attack at range 1 in the primary arc.     It forces them to fly a little better.   Sure they still get the turret attacks, but late game forcing them to fly a little better is not really that bad.    This also weakens Engine Upgrade, a bit.  Because yes they will be able to boost and shoot you, but not with +1 in range 1.  

 

eagletsi

Edited by eagletsi111

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I already posted in another thread about my region

That's the bigger problem IMO, and to be honest I forgot to mention it.

I think making zero a invalid guess for 3PO would go a long ways, but there should be partial points for MoV.

Edited by VanorDM

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Engine upgrades.... what about giving them the barrel roll treatment for large ships?

Not sure how you'd do that. I know people have suggested that before but I've never seen a simple way of doing it.

Notches prevent it and EU was meant to be there for big ships.

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Engine upgrades.... what about giving them the barrel roll treatment for large ships?

Not sure how you'd do that. I know people have suggested that before but I've never seen a simple way of doing it.

 

 

 

This is why I think nerfing it to be like every other ships.   Only gain +1 attack die at range 1 in primary arc.    Because your not going to stop engine upgrade.    But even when it boosts, since it won't have you in primary arc at range 1, it will be one less dice being shot at you.    That is huge late game.    If you can get to range 1 and stay there behind it.   

Edited by eagletsi111

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none of that ac

 

 

 

Engine upgrades.... what about giving them the barrel roll treatment for large ships?

Not sure how you'd do that. I know people have suggested that before but I've never seen a simple way of doing it.

Notches prevent it and EU was meant to be there for big ships.

 

 

that, and you don't see EU being nearly as big a deal on shuttles, firesprays, or aggressors (built-in EU)

 

no reason to bother those poor bastards when they're doing nothing wrong

 

it's when you pair that great displacement with utter lack of care for which way the ship is facing (which is heavily influenced by the boost turn and how far boost takes a large ship) that you start to get annoying ****

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Yeah I use EU on every large ship I field... only way to make it work is a smaller template being introduced and screw that.

 

The best nerf for turrets currently is scissors. A ship/build that shreds big ships. Bonus if it's a warhead.

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Engine upgrades.... what about giving them the barrel roll treatment for large ships?

Not sure how you'd do that. I know people have suggested that before but I've never seen a simple way of doing it.
It's not very hard. Just use the Huge Ship template for the 1 straight and 1 bank when doing a boost.

However, like your solution of forbidding Engine Upgrade for large ships, it invalidates existing expansion sets.

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firesprays, or aggressors (built-in EU)

I forgot about Firesprays and Brobots... So yeah that wouldn't work. Unless you only banned it on the YT's and the VT, but that's too hamfisted for me.

The issue isn't really the PWT itself, the issue is super mobile and survivable ships (and how they effect MoV scores). Normally if you have something that is super mobile it has poor survivablity, and you need to avoid being hit at all. Or you have something that has good surviviablity, but isn't very mobile.

The YT's and VT's however can combine both into a single ship, which is a problem, but only part of the problem, the other part is MoV.

There is IMO no need to nerf turrets, they aren't that good, and are very thematic. No one thinks a HWK with a Blaster turret is OP'ed. So any fix really needs to be geared towards the real issue, which is ships which are super mobile, survivable, and PWT's.

Edited by VanorDM

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Engine upgrades.... what about giving them the barrel roll treatment for large ships?

Not sure how you'd do that. I know people have suggested that before but I've never seen a simple way of doing it.

 

 

 

This is why I think nerfing it to be like every other ships.   Only gain +1 attack die at range 1 in primary arc.    Because your not going to stop engine upgrade.    But even when it boosts, since it won't have you in primary arc at range 1, it will be one less dice being shot at you.    That is huge late game.    If you can get to range 1 and stay there behind it.   

 

 

 

 

Maybe allow the dice bonus at range 1 outside of arc only with a TL? It turns a substantial nerf to a lesser one. It does nerf Fat Han as he'll need to be grabbing TLs more instead of just evading every turn.

 

This would only be for PWTs, secondary weapon turrets would function as normal.

Edited by Jo Jo

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For me,   I really find playing against them somewhat boring.   

 

I already posted in another thread about my regionial and how boring it was since I faced 6 turret list.   Yes I went 4-2 with my Biggs Keywes list, blocking them and using standard tactics to beat them(Yes they can be beaten), but frankly almost all the games were pretty boring.     It was the most boring regional I have been too.

 

They are slightly overpowered and no one will deny that, but the problem is that they really make the game boring.   For people who were used to the old meta, where you had to out think your opponent.      If you nerf them so they only get +1 attack at range 1 in the primary arc.     It forces them to fly a little better.   Sure they still get the turret attacks, but late game forcing them to fly a little better is not really that bad.    This also weakens Engine Upgrade, a bit.  Because yes they will be able to boost and shoot you, but not with +1 in range 1.  

 

eagletsi

"The old meta"? You mean Wave 1?

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firesprays, or aggressors (built-in EU)

I forgot about Firesprays and Brobots... So yeah that wouldn't work. Unless you only banned it on the YT's and the VT, but that's too hamfisted for me.

The issue isn't really the PWT itself, the issue is super mobile and survivable ships (and how they effect MoV scores). Normally if you have something that is super mobile it has poor survivablity, and you need to avoid being hit at all. Or you have something that has good surviviablity, but isn't very mobile.

The YT's and VT's however can combine both into a single ship, which is a problem, but only part of the problem, the other part is MoV.

There is IMO no need to nerf turrets, they aren't that good, and are very thematic. No one thinks a HWK with a Blaster turret is OP'ed. So any fix really needs to be geared towards the real issue, which is ships which are super mobile, survivable, and PWT's.

 

 

turrets, no

 

this is why PWT (primary weapon turret) is a thing of distinction. Every 2ndary turret in the game apart from mangler/ion/flechette outrider has a range restriction (or worse, in the case of blaster) making them possible to outplay and very fun to face on the field.

 

PWTs are impossible to avoid if you want a shot, giving you at best a green die at range 3 (yay...) unless you use auto-thrusters (only available to a few ships).

 

The 2-die PWTs (YT-2400 and soon the K) never use them or, if they do, do so as a penalty for not being used more effectively (such as maintaining arc for ordnance/cannon, or dropping mines/bombs) because 2 dice are pretty horrible. A nerf wouldn't really do much against them.

 

really, all they need is something that rewards opponents for outmanuevering them so we aren't stuck playing yahtzee. This can be either a more global auto-thrusters, gutting the range 1 bonus while out-of-arc, or making Predator/Gunner etc. function more like tactician/outmanuever

Edited by ficklegreendice

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firesprays, or aggressors (built-in EU)

The issue isn't really the PWT itself, the issue is super mobile and survivable ships (and how they effect MoV scores). Normally if you have something that is super mobile it has poor survivablity, and you need to avoid being hit at all. Or you have something that has good surviviablity, but isn't very mobile.
This, PWTs aren't an issue, the issue is when the PWT has one of the best dials in the game, and insane survivability. When a ship is easy to fly, takes all the fire from all your ships easy, and can pop the more fragile ones while ON TOP OF THAT having a PWT is when it becomes a problem.

Nobody whines about ORS, 2400s, or K-wings (well those that whine about K-wings have to face me). It's just the insane super combos that RAC and Han put out that are the problem.

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really, all they need is something that rewards opponents for outmanuevering them so we aren't stuck playing yahtzee.

And how exactly do you do that without over nerfing every other turret out there? The +1 only in arc only applies to YT-1300 and VT's, the 2400 doesn't have a primary weapon turret.

In fact every idea I've seen either has to be aimed directly at given pilots, rather then a type of ship or it doesn't work at all.

Yeah some people don't like playing against PWT or YT-2400's but that doesn't make them overpowered, what makes them an issue is the super mobility + super suriviablity + 360 fire. Take away at least one of those and you'll see them a lot less.

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Yeah some people don't like playing against PWT or YT-2400's but that doesn't make them overpowered, what makes them an issue is the super mobility + super suriviablity + 360 fire. Take away at least one of those and you'll see them a lot less.

 

You already see a lot less.

 

 

How is this not a huge victory for everyone who complains about the Fat Turret dominating the meta?

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I think a good nerf would be to let every ship outside of the normal PWT front firing arc roll one additional agility die. We might need to nerf autothrusters a bit in that case though. Let them choose for either one aditional die or turn a blank into an evade, prior to rolling the dice.

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I think a good nerf would be to let every ship outside of the normal PWT front firing arc roll one additional agility die.

And what do you do with YT-2400's? How exactly do you word it so only the YT-2400 is affected without nerfing Ion or Blaster turrets?

Edited by VanorDM

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