Does Move do too much damage?

[Jedi Ronin 1,588]

So it seems like the better question is: Are Force Powers like Move overcosted (especially when you take into account necessary XP investment in FR and Discipline)?

[DarthGM 2,337]

 

It's too easy, but it's actually not ENOUGH damage. Throw a tie fighter at another tie fighter and you wont even scratch the paint. Throwing tie fighters in the first place is ridiculus, but if you can do it, I expect more results than that.

 

It's a vehicle collision...so treat it as such!

 

 

That's actually not a bad idea at first glance...might be worth exploring if PCs are going to slam one vehicle into another with the Force.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

 

It's a vehicle collision...so treat it as such!

 

 

That's actually not a bad idea at first glance...might be worth exploring if PCs are going to slam one vehicle into another with the Force.

 

 

Yeah, certainly if at least one of the vehicles is already moving.

[Jedi Ronin 1,588]

You can also use Move to disarm opponents more reliably.

The NPCs will be able to re-arm themselves much of the time but will need to expend Maneuvers and perhaps Strain to do so.

[dougansf 132]

So it seems like the better question is: Are Force Powers like Move overcosted (especially when you take into account necessary XP investment in FR and Discipline)?

 

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple.

 

FR is a lot like other Attributes.  It's expensive because it's used in multiple ways.  Once you get FR high enough, it's easy to start cherry picking other Power lists to be able to use FR in almost any circumstance.

 

Before F&D Beta came out, my (homebrew) Jedi with FR 3 had Move, Influence, Sense, and Foresee.  The Beta came out, and I got FR 4 and started up the Bind tree.  Just under 600 XP, and extremely versatile.  My only compliant was that my skills sucked, so I rarely got Triumph results.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

So, long story short, it sounds like extensive internal playtesting plus three years in the wild are proven correct, and my concerns are pretty groundless.

I wouldn't say entirely groundless.  Just that it's not quite as horrific as it looks on first brush.

 

Move is considered one of the top tier powers in the game, and for good reason.  Once you've got a PC that can reliably generate the necessary Force points and has spent the XP to procure various upgrades, Move can be a fairly disturbing source of damage under the right conditions.

 

Another element to keep in mind is Conflict, not just from converting dark side pips into Force points, but just from how it's generally used.  To borrow an adage from the Saga Edition days, the more your course of action would make Palpatine cackle with glee, the more Conflict it deserves.  Using Move to simply pick some one up and drop them from any great height (Medium or above) is generally agreed upon to be a **** move, and something that would generate Conflict since since it's unnecessarily cruel to the target, even if the PC only rolled light side pips on their Force dice.

 

Moral of the story (such as it is)?  Move in and of itself isn't broken, but you do need to be aware that it can be abused, and that abuse should carry consequences.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

So it seems like the better question is: Are Force Powers like Move overcosted (especially when you take into account necessary XP investment in FR and Discipline)?

I'd say not, but that might also be experience from seeing Force users get utterly broketastic in prior systems with alarming ease, with Saga Edition taking the cake in that regard as a single feat at 1st or 2nd level (Skill Focus in Use the Force) takes a Jedi from capable to overpowering, especially against foes built primarily with Non-Heroic levels.

 

Truthfully, most PCs can actually do quite well without investing huge amounts of XP into the Force powers, and I think Move is one of them.   You can probably get by with only putting about 50XP into the Move power (base power for 10, range upgrade for 5, magnitude upgrade for 5, strength upgrade for 10, control upgrades to hurl objects and pull secured objects for 15 combined, for 45 XP total) and still be plenty capable in a fight.

 

As for where the truth lies... that's probably something that's going to be up to each individual GM and their group.

[Krieger22 2,471]

Personally I'm not terribly concerned about Move becoming a big issue when I start a F&D campaign. First of all, it's like Donovan and several others pointed out; you need to invest a lot of XP to get to a point where you do damage equal to a more-or-less-starting character with a good rifle.And second, I seem to remember this little green guy saying something like, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never attack". Dropping a TIE fighter on a bunch of people sounds an awful lot like using the Force to kill someone, which means I'd be shovelling Conflict at the player in question.

 

If anything about Move bothers me it's the possibility of players flipping over AT-ATs and demolishing buildings and landmarks in out-of-combat encounters. And if that happens, I have this nice little houserule ready that says moving things with a Silhouette of 2 or higher costs strain equal to the Silhouette multiplied by itself.

[dougansf 132]

If anything about Move bothers me it's the possibility of players flipping over AT-ATs and demolishing buildings and landmarks in out-of-combat encounters. And if that happens, I have this nice little houserule ready that says moving things with a Silhouette of 2 or higher costs strain equal to the Silhouette multiplied by itself.

 

You mean Unnecessary Destruction (3-4 Conflict)

or

Unprovoked Violence or Assault (4-5 Conflict)

Heck, Resorting to Violence as the First Solution gets you 1.

 

I suppose your houserule could work, but it sounds like introducing a rule to punish XP spending.  There are other systems, and roleplaying repercussions that keep things in check.

[vilainn6 306]

Personally I'm not terribly concerned about Move becoming a big issue when I start a F&D campaign. First of all, it's like Donovan and several others pointed out; you need to invest a lot of XP to get to a point where you do damage equal to a more-or-less-starting character with a good rifle.And second, I seem to remember this little green guy saying something like, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never attack". Dropping a TIE fighter on a bunch of people sounds an awful lot like using the Force to kill someone, which means I'd be shovelling Conflict at the player in question.

 

If anything about Move bothers me it's the possibility of players flipping over AT-ATs and demolishing buildings and landmarks in out-of-combat encounters. And if that happens, I have this nice little houserule ready that says moving things with a Silhouette of 2 or higher costs strain equal to the Silhouette multiplied by itself.

 

And you have the player complaining that he already spend the XP to be able to grab big object and never the rule talk about a strain cost.

[Lordbiscuit 566]

 

If anything about Move bothers me it's the possibility of players flipping over AT-ATs and demolishing buildings and landmarks in out-of-combat encounters. And if that happens, I have this nice little houserule ready that says moving things with a Silhouette of 2 or higher costs strain equal to the Silhouette multiplied by itself.

 

You mean Unnecessary Destruction (3-4 Conflict)

or

Unprovoked Violence or Assault (4-5 Conflict)

Heck, Resorting to Violence as the First Solution gets you 1.

 

I suppose your houserule could work, but it sounds like introducing a rule to punish XP spending.  There are other systems, and roleplaying repercussions that keep things in check.

 

 

 

Or express certain expectations before you start: Personally, actually getting in range to force flip AT-AT's in itself puts that Force User right in the path of some nasty guns. Further more stopping an AT-AT isn't the end; there are typically 60 stormtroopers that can be loaded in these things to present a threat. Plus it can lead to some amusing banter.

 

"Stromtroopers are coming! Can't you throw these away?"

"Have you ever tried picking up ants with chopsticks, boy? I arn't gonna be able to make them disappear, We gotta fall back."

 

No need to punish them for it; just esclate the situation. After all, having stronger force users take interest will either bring about epic conflicts or make the player use it sparingly.

 

 

I played one book campiagn where exactly that happened. We put a stop to around 4 AT-AT's at the neck of a valey, so all the stormtroopers got out and started to advance on the rebel postions on foot; just that situation meant that even though the base was outnumbered; it was no longer a case that the AT-AT's could simply atomise all the base defences as they went.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Lordbiscuit

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

 

If anything about Move bothers me it's the possibility of players flipping over AT-ATs and demolishing buildings and landmarks in out-of-combat encounters. And if that happens, I have this nice little houserule ready that says moving things with a Silhouette of 2 or higher costs strain equal to the Silhouette multiplied by itself.

 

You mean Unnecessary Destruction (3-4 Conflict)

or

Unprovoked Violence or Assault (4-5 Conflict)

Heck, Resorting to Violence as the First Solution gets you 1.

It's to handle overkill situations like what Krieger described that the Morality system exists.

 

Going largely from the EU as a reference point, the Jedi were more about "using only as much force as needed" in regards to resolving a dilemma.  And resorting to excessive or unnecessary force is generally more of a Sith/dark sider thing to do.  Consider the Senate battle in RotS; Palps was literally throwing the entire Senate at Yoda and causing extreme damage to the arena, but the Jedi Grand Master only responded with a single pod (likely Silhouette 2) in a focused strike that wouldn't cause nearly as much collateral damage, most likely as a result of centuries of Jedi doctrine of only using as much power as felt necessary to the situation.  If anything, Palp's actions were probably more in line with how most players would react to facing such a dangerous opponent as a veteran Jedi Master; simply throw as much damage at him as you can in the hopes of squashing him.  It's just that for Palpy it didn't quite work out since Yoda was such a small and quickly moving target.

 

Although that scenario does bring up an interesting notion... does the Silhouette of the target have any impact on the difficulty when hurling an excessively large object at a target?  Yoda is assuredly a Silhouette 0 creature, so could be that using the Silhouette 2 pods caused an increase in difficulty much the same as a Silhouette 2 creature would face if trying to hit a Silhouette 0 creature with a Brawl attack.  Between what equates to a size penalty and using the autofire rules to hurl multiple objects, Palps may actually have been setting himself up to fail by simply rolling too many difficulty dice that were probably upgraded multiple times.

[kaosoe 7,573]

Although that scenario does bring up an interesting notion... does the Silhouette of the target have any impact on the difficulty when hurling an excessively large object at a target?  Yoda is assuredly a Silhouette 0 creature, so could be that using the Silhouette 2 pods caused an increase in difficulty much the same as a Silhouette 2 creature would face if trying to hit a Silhouette 0 creature with a Brawl attack.  Between what equates to a size penalty and using the autofire rules to hurl multiple objects, Palps may actually have been setting himself up to fail by simply rolling too many difficulty dice that were probably upgraded multiple times.

 

Excellent point. I think silhouette should matter. It doesn't fix Move's potential, but it certainly helps in that regard.

[whafrog 10,384]

Excellent point. I think silhouette should matter. It doesn't fix Move's potential, but it certainly helps in that regard.

 

A step in the right direction, for sure.

 

One argument I have trouble with regarding Move is the comparison of damage output to weapons...it seems to me that the vast majority of instances of "telekinesis" in the movies is pretty micro-scale, even by the big bads.  Aside from the occasional crunched battle droid, it's almost always strategic or tactical:  recovering dropped lightsabers, moving a small object as a distraction, tossing a can at the controls to open a series of ray shields, a push to get room.  You never see them lift somebody to a range and let them fall, but that seems to be one of the more common uses on these boards.  So the focus on damage output feels misplaced, and a lot of the tree is devoted to it.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

 

Excellent point. I think silhouette should matter. It doesn't fix Move's potential, but it certainly helps in that regard.

 

A step in the right direction, for sure.

 

One argument I have trouble with regarding Move is the comparison of damage output to weapons...it seems to me that the vast majority of instances of "telekinesis" in the movies is pretty micro-scale, even by the big bads.  Aside from the occasional crunched battle droid, it's almost always strategic or tactical:  recovering dropped lightsabers, moving a small object as a distraction, tossing a can at the controls to open a series of ray shields, a push to get room.  You never see them lift somebody to a range and let them fall, but that seems to be one of the more common uses on these boards.  So the focus on damage output feels misplaced, and a lot of the tree is devoted to it.

 

 

I think it's appropriate that there is only one upgrade that deals directly with damage, making in simply an application of this type of telekinesis that we see occasionally in canonical sources.

 

And lifting somebody just to drop them to their death is +10 conflict in my games! If you don't have Morality, then I'll warn the acting player that I will impose a Morality score on him just to track the use of Move :-D

Edited July 18, 2015 by awayputurwpn

[whafrog 10,384]

And lifting somebody just to drop them to their death is +10 conflict in my games! If you don't have Morality, then I'll warn the acting player that I will impose a Morality score on him just to track the use of Move :-D

 

Presumably none of the Sith would be bothered by that, but they aren't doing it either.

[dfn 88]

Why would there be problems comparing Move damage to weapon damage? We are playing a game first and foremost, so it makes sense to compare them in terms of balance (damage, XP cost, whatever else comes into play). As for how move is used in the movies...does it matter? I am no SW expert, merely a fan. When I play this game, I treat the movies (and any SW-related media) as a seed of creativity. I don't want to replicate the movies always - I sometimes want to build and expand on ideas contained in the movies. As an example, I used move to retrieve a lost Lightsaber, igniting it mid-air, and moving it back through an enemy. Everyone at the tabled loved it. I've never seen that in a movie, but the players agreed it was a cool thing to do.

Having said the above, I am actually surprised by how many people here immediately thought of using move to pick someone up and let them fall (not saying they use it like that, but just that being the first idea). Thus far, I've never used move like that, only because of what I interpret the RAI to be around that power. IMHO, everything but the Hurl upgrade is meant for utility; the Hurl upgrade is meant for damage and utility. Thus, if I was to lift someone up to drop them, I'd either expect an opposed check, or to have the Hurl upgrade, or both.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

 

And lifting somebody just to drop them to their death is +10 conflict in my games! If you don't have Morality, then I'll warn the acting player that I will impose a Morality score on him just to track the use of Move :-D

 

Presumably none of the Sith would be bothered by that, but they aren't doing it either.

 

(image: Mace Windu suffering a bout of defenestration)

[whafrog 10,384]

That would be Unleash...

[knasserII 2,557]

That would be Unleash...

 

Not sure about that. Can Unleash move people around? If not, then it wasn't only Unleash that as being used because Windu is clearly hurled out of that window with great force and I doubt it was himself using a Force jump.

Edited July 18, 2015 by knasserII

[Krieger22 2,471]

We see that thing happening with Anakin and Dooku at the end of AotC as well; Dooku hits Anakin with Unleash while simultaneously picking him up off the ground and flinging him into a wall. Maybe it's just the narrative effects of a Triumph?

[knasserII 2,557]

Having said the above, I am actually surprised by how many people here immediately thought of using move to pick someone up and let them fall (not saying they use it like that, but just that being the first idea). Thus far, I've never used move like that, only because of what I interpret the RAI to be around that power. IMHO, everything but the Hurl upgrade is meant for utility; the Hurl upgrade is meant for damage and utility. Thus, if I was to lift someone up to drop them, I'd either expect an opposed check, or to have the Hurl upgrade, or both.

Lot of discussion about this one. Your post is as good a launching post as any.

Hurling someone up in the air and then dropping them need not be the unbalanced exploit some people seem to think it is. EotE and its sibling publications are narrative games. That is the rules define outcomes rather what happens. The latter is left within the purview of tone GM and players. If you want to hurl someone to cause damage, you need the Control upgrade that lets you do that. Full stop. If you do have it then you get the damage specified.

The rules define what effect you can have narratively, that is all.

Player: "I want to hurl him straight up in tone air and let him fall back down to the ground."

GM: "You need the Control upgrade to damage people by hurling them."

And there it should end. A player doesn't get to damage someone by saying their character does, they get to do it because the rules allow them to. Just like I don't get three bonus damage on an explosion without the talents from the Demolitionist tree - even if I say "my character carefully places the charges". I need the appropriate purchases.

[knasserII 2,557]

We see that thing happening with Anakin and Dooku at the end of AotC as well; Dooku hits Anakin with Unleash while simultaneously picking him up off the ground and flinging him into a wall. Maybe it's just the narrative effects of a Triumph?

Does Unleash have any sustain upgrade that lets you keep it going round to round? I recall it has both Ensnare and Burn available. So you use Unleash and score one or both of these. Visually that keeps you caught up in the lightning next round even though the Sith is now rolling their Move power.

Anyway, this is a ridiculous attempt to divert from the point. We see a Sith hurl someone into the air so that they fall to their death. It's pretty absurd to try and translate that into an FFG game mechanic that doesn't cover this to try and argue backwards that Sith don't do this. We've just SEEN a Sith do what was proposed. If the game mechanic Whafrog picked doesn't represent that, then it means they mistranslated it into game terms, not that the movie didn't show it.

Whafrog said Sith don't do this. We just saw one doing it. That's case closed.

Edited July 18, 2015 by knasserII

[whafrog 10,384]

I don't think that comes close to what people are describing, but if it works for you, go for it.

 

Hmm, I'd originally decided to avoid this thread, and here I am.  Serves me right I suppose.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

If you're looking for a game-mechanical answer, though, Palpatine could've just been using an ability like The Force Is My Ally talent to perform Move as a maneuver

There are any number of ways one could interpret the cinematic scenes of films we know and love in terms of mechanics. So there will always be much fodder for debate I only wanted to give an example of a Sith doing Sith-y things—which, in my mind, is right on the money for most instances of using Move as an "effective" weapon (bashing stormtroopers into each other, dropping enemies from great heights, most of the things we had fun doing while controlling Starkiller in The Force Unleashed, etc).