Does Move do too much damage?

[The Grand Falloon 1,718]

I realize this question comes pretty late, but I'm honestly wondering if folks find it to be the case. I realize there's a pretty heavy XP investment, but if you're able to reliably generate 2 force pips, that first Strength upgrade lets you hit like a Heavy Blaster rifle, while the second seems almost like an "instant win" button. 2 difficulty dice to hit a guy with a speeder bike for 20 damage? Yes please! One more and *pow!* TIE Fightered for 30!

I haven't seen it in live play yet, so I may be way off base. I'm just curious what others have experienced.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

It's situational, largely because the amount of damage depends on what objects the GM puts into play during a battle.

 

If there are objects of Silhouette 3 and bigger to throw around at whim, then yes the Move power can be utterly devastating in terms of damage.  Granted, you still need to roll against a base difficulty of 3 purple (plus any ranged defense or ranks in Adversary the target has), but if you connect that's still enough damage to take out pretty much anything that operates on character scale.  But once the XP has been invested in the Strength Upgrades and you've got a decent Force Rating (2 at minimum, 3 for reliable results), then it's pretty brutal.

 

However, if the GM is far more sparing with such large objects, or limits the encounter to Silhouette 1 objects, then Move's not much more powerful than a blaster rifle; at short range they're probably on par since the blaster rifle would have a difficulty pool of 1 purple for attacking at short range, which is the same for hurling a Silhouette 1 object with the Move power.  Core difference is that Move would require two Force Points (one for the base power, one for the Strength Upgrade) on top of a successful Discipline check to fully activate, while shooting with a blaster rifle only requires a successful Ranged: Heavy check.

 

Even with Silhouette 2 objects, you're rolling against 2 purple dice, to say nothing of needing additional Force Points beyond the initial two if you want to affect or hit something that's further away than short range.  And until you've gotten to Force Rating 2, the best a Force user can manage is two Force Points, meaning that for Move they have to choose which Upgrade they're going to use, making Move as an offensive ability something that's not very useful for a FR1 character, something that got discussed by Chris and Phil on the most recent Order 66 podcast.

 

Can Move be very powerful?  Yes, and I don't think anyone will deny that.  But I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful as it looks on first pass, and it's not nearly as powerful put into practice unless a PC has built their entire character around using Move... at which point the easy answer to nerfing their power is to put them in situations where openly using the Force is a baaaaaaaaaaaaad idea.  Like say openly hurling speeder bikes with your mind while on a Core World planet in front of a squad of stormtroopers and/or loyal Imperial citizens.  Being overly open with such blatant Force usage is a good way to get an Inquisitor on your trail, and with proper tactics (or just the right build) an Inquisitor can be a very daunting adversary for a nascent Force user; odds are good they're going to be stronger in the Force, have an extremely high Willpower and/or Discipline to counter your Force powers, and 3 ranks of Adversary is nothing to sneeze at.

[The Grand Falloon 1,718]

Yeah, in my head it seemed a little easier to generate the power, until i looked at the book and realized the upgrades and such needed.  That all mitigates it quite a bit, but it still seems almost like a "save or die" sort of power.  Just looking around my living room I can see a number of arguably Sil 2 objects.  Table (it's a big table), armoire, china hutch, and so forth.  I was thinking perhaps make the damage Silhouette X 5, but allow extra pips to add more damage.  But then that seems too weak.  Of course, there's a very good chance all this will never come up.

[Lorne 2,021]

With the Magnitude upgrade, you don't need Sil 2 objects, just a bunch of Sil 1 enemies to throw into each other.

[What 300]

All you need is one strength upgrade and as many range upgrades as you can trigger - throw your intended enemy straight up and let the fall damage do the rest.

[dougansf 132]

Consider that to compare to a Long Range Blaster Rifle with base damage of 10 and Auto-Fire, someone with Move would need:

 

Move Power (10 XP)

Strength upgrade 1 (10XP)

Range upgrade 1&2 (10XP)

Control Upgrade 1 (10 XP)

Some Wilpower and ranks of Discipline would be a good idea too.  

 

And be able to consistently roll 3 Force pips to activate them all.  In my experience (without flipping Dark Pips) it's unlikely at FR2, likely at FR3, and very likely at FR 4.

[dfn 88]

I've been playing a character with FR3 and Move for a while. All I can say, is that in my experience, it is very underwhelming for combat purposes. With 3 force dice, I am unable to consistently activate the upgrades I need. The campaign I'm in, I've been pretty envious of other characters who were outpacing me in DPR since the start, and still are. The XP investment is huge, compared to what non-force sensitives would have to spend for the same, or more, damage.

 

The problem is also that sometimes you need to flip a point - oops, there's nothing to flip. The GM is (imo) very good at using destiny points, but other PCs get to use them too, which means when I get a few black pips, I am SOL. I have found attacking with pretty much any agility-based weapon, or a lightsaber, much more reliable in terms of damage. 

 

As a force sensitive, to get FR3 + Hurl + Range + Strength, you need roughly 170-180 XP. This is not counting bumping Discipline for the Hurl check. That probably puts you closer to ~200 XP. Or you can start a non-force sensitive, and do as much damage, more reliably, right after character creation.

 

Having said that, I find Move as a utility (ie, non DPR) great! Very fun.

 

EDIT: When I said it is underwhelming, that is with a Willpower of 5, and Discipline at 3G2Y. Can't imagine how I'd feel if I left Willpower at 3 or 4, and didn't up Discipline

Edited July 16, 2015 by dfn

[CaptainRaspberry 1,190]

To be fair, if you're throwing TIE fighters at people, you deserve to do massive damage.

[dougansf 132]

 

 

EDIT: When I said it is underwhelming, that is with a Willpower of 5, and Discipline at 3G2Y. Can't imagine how I'd feel if I left Willpower at 3 or 4, and didn't up Discipline

 

I was at 2G2Y and doing well on the Discipline attack side.  It was really all about getting the pips.

 

But it is worth mentioning that having 2 separate ways for the dice to fail you SUCKS!!!

 

Speaking of Destiny Points, if you burn one to get the pips you need, you can't burn it to upgrade your Discipline attack roll.

[The Grand Falloon 1,718]

Thanks, dfn.  I'm glad to hear from someone who's focused on it and seen how it works at the table.

So, long story short, it sounds like extensive internal playtesting plus three years in the wild are proven correct, and my concerns are pretty groundless.

[dfn 88]

I was at 2G2Y and doing well on the Discipline attack side.  It was really all about getting the pips.

 

But it is worth mentioning that having 2 separate ways for the dice to fail you SUCKS!!!

I agree, pips are the main issue. Getting the pips - in two ways, really: bumping FR, then rolling. First you have to up your FR, then you have to get the appropriate roll. That's why Move, and maybe a bunch of other Force Powers, are deceptive: in order to use them, you have to purchase more than just the power and upgrades. Most other things in the game are more straightforward: buy with XP; use/derive benefit.

EDIT:

@The Grand Falloon: Just one person's opinion. You may as well create a character with it and take it for a spin! Do a short adventure with +200 XP after char. creation and see what you think of it in action

Edited July 16, 2015 by dfn

[Kilcannon 177]

If one of my players has all of the necessary upgrades with move what does he roll to move 3 rivals off of a roof to me them fall to their death instead of slamming them into each other or slamming objects into them? Came up last game

[dfn 88]

It depends on the upgrades and FR your player has (and the distance of the rivals, as well as the possibility of resisting force powers?). Some upgrades can be activated multiple times, some can't.

One example: 2 magnitude upgrades, 1 strength upgrade, rivals (Sil1) within short range, and edge of rooftop also within short range, FR of 2. In this case, the PC would need to get three white pips somehow. One to activate the base power, one for the strength upgrade (sil1), and one for the magnitude (upgraded twice, meaning three objects can be moved).

[Kilcannon 177]

He has force rating 3 and the upgrades needed. Is there an opposed check if they don't have the force or some ranged roll needed or just spend pips and it works

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

It is a lot of damage, but you factor in the cost of XP, the highly visible use of the Force, and the potential conflict for purposefully squishing people to death, and the fact that you do need those objects around if you want to move them, and the fact that you'll have to contend with range as well as silhouette (that's a minimum of 3 Force Points required to move any one thing outside of short range, so minimum of 100-ish XP to be able to use the power with any reliable utility)

 

I've seen way more uber-damage builds using only a tricked-out autofire Ranged (Heavy) weapon and starting XP/credits. All you need is 15 XP to get to Jury-Rigged, 1,500 credits to buy the Heavy Blaster Rifle (obtainable with a cool +5 Obligation), and you've a weapon that hits for 10 base damage and an additional 10 for each advantage you roll. Turns less heads than using your mind to throw a speeder at someone! And takes way less investment. By the time a Force User is deep into the Move tree and has 2 Force Rating, a Gadgeteer will have added Deadly Accuracy and Point Blank, plus an Augmented Spin Barrel and any number of other attachments to his heavy blaster rifle. Much more effective

 

Plus, if a Force user was trying to grab a vehicle in use, he'd most certainly have to contend with the strength of the vehicle's repulsors and its current speed, among other factors. All in all, the HBR is a much more efficient way to deal damage, but Move can be powerful if you're willing to invest the time into it and if you're okay being pegged and identified as a Force user of note! 

 

(edit...bah, didn't see all the other posts. I think they covered most everything I said)

Edited July 17, 2015 by awayputurwpn

[Kilcannon 177]

I agree if using move strictly to cause damage there are much easier ways to do so. However if counting the utility of the power and the fact it also causes that much damage then I would invest in move over auto fire because it's much more useful and cooler

[dfn 88]

He has force rating 3 and the upgrades needed. Is there an opposed check if they don't have the force or some ranged roll needed or just spend pips and it works

Note that "upgrades needed" can vary in this case. The GM decides if there is an opposed check, and AFAIK, that's a common thing to do for a nemesis. Rivals, less common, unless they are "named" but I'm just going from the books here. You can decide, given the situation, and characters involved, if it is an opposed check. I invite you to discuss it with your players, ask them what they think as well. There is no ranged roll needed unless the player is using Hurl.

[knasserII 2,557]

It's not bad, but...

1. Requires "ammo" to be lying around.

2. "Ammo" is prone to running out very quickly as you run out of Tie-Fighters to throw.

3. Hard to use indoors.

4. Frequent failures to actually get the pips necessary to do what you want.

5. Extensive investment required in:

5a. Specialization Trees to get Force Rating

5b. Move power tree.

5c. Discipline to actually hit things.

6. Possibly THE least subtle weapon in the game, unless you count the Death Star in your inventory.

[Lorne 2,021]

So, long story short, it sounds like extensive internal playtesting plus three years in the wild are proven correct, and my concerns are pretty groundless.

 

Yep, honestly, it's more of a challenge to challenge PC's that've loaded themselves up with tech and skill ranks.

[Angelalex242 101]

...Things like this are why I think Force Users require hundreds of XP for Knighthood, and thousands for master.

 

Particularly if you're playing Clone Wars or NJO or even TOR eras.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Angelalex242

[Rakaydos 4,236]

It's too easy, but it's actually not ENOUGH damage. Throw a tie fighter at another tie fighter and you wont even scratch the paint. Throwing tie fighters in the first place is ridiculus, but if you can do it, I expect more results than that.

[knasserII 2,557]

It's too easy, but it's actually not ENOUGH damage. Throw a tie fighter at another tie fighter and you wont even scratch the paint. Throwing tie fighters in the first place is ridiculus, but if you can do it, I expect more results than that.

Tie-fighters are Silhouette 3 and have Armour 2. They also only have Hull Threshold 6 so I would expect some fairly substantial scratching of the paint in such a case, no?

[whafrog 10,384]

Silhouette 3 does 30 points of character damage, or 3 points of vehicle damage.  I guess you can add your successes as character damage, but that's not likely to translate to a full point of vehicle damage.  So you'd do 1 hull point of damage throwing one TIE against another...that's 500 credits in paint.

[Lorne 2,021]

Silhouette 3 does 30 points of character damage, or 3 points of vehicle damage.  I guess you can add your successes as character damage, but that's not likely to translate to a full point of vehicle damage.  So you'd do 1 hull point of damage throwing one TIE against another...that's 500 credits in paint.

 

"You still got your TIE fighter?

 

You know what some f----er did to it the other day?

 

What?

 

Threw it across the hangar and f-----n' scratched it!

 

Oh man, that's f----d up!

 

Tell me about it.  I had the goddamn thing in storage three years. It's out for five f-----n' days -- five days, and some d--kless jedi piece of s--t f--cks with it.

 

They should be f-----n' killed. No trial, no jury, straight to the Inquisitors.

 

I just wish I caught the 'em doin' it, ya know? Oh man, I'd give anything to catch 'em doin' it. It'a been worth him doin' it, if I coulda just caught 'em, you know what I mean?

 

it's chicken s--t. You don't f--k with another man's starfighter."

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

It's too easy, but it's actually not ENOUGH damage. Throw a tie fighter at another tie fighter and you wont even scratch the paint. Throwing tie fighters in the first place is ridiculus, but if you can do it, I expect more results than that.

 

It's a vehicle collision...so treat it as such!