Omnislash024

Gaining Movement Points off Surge Attacks

30 posts in this topic

Ok, so how does this work? We'll take the ACTI Weapon Trident as an example. Now it says that you can spend a Surge to Gain two MP with this weapon. The question is when and how can you use those Movement points? Must you declare a Move action or can you just use them? If you declared a move action before the attack and used all MP and then surge, can you still move?  

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Just like MP gained from fatigue, there is NO NEED to declare a move action to use movement points.They can be spent any time during your turn when you are not performing an action. Before doing an action, after finishing an action, or you can interrupt a move action to spend them. If your turn ends, those MP are gone forever.

 

For an alternate example, the OL card Blinding Speed can be used on a beastman with "Ravage." He can spend his 2 or 6 gained MP to get adjacent to a target and then attack twice- spending MP doesn't require an action. Move actions are just actions which give you MP equal to your speed to spend.

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I don´t want to sound like a know-it-all, especially not to someone as well versed with the rules as you zaltyre, but:

 

Just like MP gained from fatigue, there is NO NEED to declare a move action to use movement points.They can be spent any time during your turn when you are not performing an action. Before doing an action, after finishing an action, or you can interrupt a move action to spend them. If your turn ends, those MP are gone forever.

 

Isn´t that (bolded statement) false? After all, you can only interrupt a move action to perform another action. While you can technically gain additonal movement points during a move action via fatigue, this does not interrupt the movement action itself, correct?

 

So, if you started a move action, and interrupted it at some point, wouldn´t it still be considered to be this move action as long as you didn´t explicitly spend the last movement point in your movement pool, which you gained from that movement action. In this case all other movement points which you´d spend before this particular last movement point would be considered to be part of the move action, which means you can trade with adjacent heroes and tripwire can be used by the OL?

 

I recently tried to wrap my head around the whole movement system in Descent, and after reading everything I could find regarding the matter (and losing a lot of sanity in the process) this was my conclusion. But I suppose I may be wrong with my assumptions, so if you have further insights I would appreciate your opinion on the matter.

 

Sorry for derailing this threat somewhat from the original toppic :(

Edited by DerDelphi

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No problem, and it's actually a wonderful, nebulous point you've brought up. There's this goldmine from the FAQ. I've bolded some things:

 

Q: Can a figure interrupt its move action to perform another move action,
and if so, how are the spaces moved through during the first and second move
action differentiated (and what happens if a card instructs you to “end your
move action”)? How do the players differentiate between spaces that were
moved through due to an action and spaces that were moved through due to
suffering fatigue?
A: When a figure performs a move action, that figure receives a number
of movement points equal to his Speed. A figure can interrupt its move
action to perform an additional move action, which gives that figure
additional movement points. There is no need to differentiate the two
move actions because they are both move actions. If a card instructs you
to end your move action and that figure performed two move actions,
then both actions end and that figure loses all unspent movement points.
However, if a hero player wishes to suffer fatigue to gain movement
points in the middle of a move action, he must declare exactly when he is
suffering the fatigue within the move action and which spaces he moves
into with those additional movement points.
 
And from the rulebook:
During his turn, before or after resolving an action or during a move action, a hero may suffer fatigue to gain movement points.
 
So you're right. It's not really interrupting a move action. However, the FAQ says that which spaces you move into with fatigue must be declared- implying that even if it's "during a move action" if you used exclusively fatigue to enter the space, the OL couldn't play "Tripwire." That's why I think about it as an interruption.
 
In order to solve the problems related to "If a move action is just receiving movement points, how do you interrupt it at all? When is it actually over?" Our group has settled on an answer which is good enough for us- once you do a move action, you can trade with heroes and do all of that fun stuff until you have spent all of your move action movement points AND performed a non-move action. So if you use your last movement point to get adjacent to a hero you can still trade with them. If you use your last MP and then attack a monster, your trading window has closed.
 
And by the way, please call me on it if I post something you think is wrong. I do my best to explain the rules, but I make mistakes all the time, and I'm also just trying to figure things out myself. 
Edited by Zaltyre

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This is very interesting. 

 

We always played it the same.  A move action, or anything else that gives MP's just adds to your pool.  As long as you had MP's in your pool you could trade. 

 

But reading the movement and trading item rules,  You could not actually trade anything gaining movement points with surges, or any other way besides a move action. 

You have to actually use a Move action to trade items. 

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The problem is that there's actually two things that are called "move actions"

One is an action that gives you movement points, the other is the action of moving your figure across the board.

 

Only one of those uses one of your character's actions. It's also really hard to interrupt an action that only gives you MP, but apparently, that's how it works.

:P  :lol:

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I've found it far simpler to simply houserule move actions for consistency and simplicity.

 

The houserule we play with: Move actions are simply an action which grants you movement points equal to your speed. Nothing else to it. Effects which end move actions (like a tripwire) instead reduce the victims movement points to zero.

 

Trading requires that the player have used a move action at some point during that turn.

 

All references to interrupting move actions in the rules are removed.

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I've found it far simpler to simply houserule move actions for consistency and simplicity.

 

The houserule we play with: Move actions are simply an action which grants you movement points equal to your speed. Nothing else to it. Effects which end move actions (like a tripwire) instead reduce the victims movement points to zero.

 

Trading requires that the player have used a move action at some point during that turn.

 

All references to interrupting move actions in the rules are removed.

That is an interesting houserule. I don't dislike it, but:

 

1) Tripwire already reduces a MP pool to zero- that's what "ending a move action" does.

 

2) When can the OL play "Tripwire"? At any point during a hero turn where the hero has used a move action?

Edited by Zaltyre

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We removed the "during a move action part" of it. It's just when a hero is moving. Keeps it functionally the same while also simplifying things.

 

Also allows it to be used sometimes when someone gains a number of movement points but isn't taking a move action.

Edited by Whitewing

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Thanks for your input on the matter! So I was wrong after all... And just after I thought I finally had a grip on the system. I sincerely hope, that 3rd edition at some point in the (far) future simplifies this complicated system (as well all the immobilized condition and it´s exceptions).

 

I´m not sure yet, if I would want to adapt some kind of house rule, but you guys have some interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

 

And once again sorry for the derailing.

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I do like the idea of treating a move action as "gain movement points equal to speed". It does simplify it.

The thing that bugs me most as OL is when you have a tripwire in hand and ready and the heroes decide to fatigue over to where they want to go. Essentially makes tripwire useless in these cases. It's a bit counter intuitive.

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I do like the idea of treating a move action as "gain movement points equal to speed". It does simplify it.

The thing that bugs me most as OL is when you have a tripwire in hand and ready and the heroes decide to fatigue over to where they want to go. Essentially makes tripwire useless in these cases. It's a bit counter intuitive.

Tripwire has always been a throwaway card, anyway. Those two are the first to go when I buy new cards.

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Trap cards are a pretty iffy way to go. Even Web Trap, which by in large is a very situation based card, that just sometimes doesn't work anyway. I tend to favor Magus cards more. 

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On 7/15/2015 at 3:04 PM, Zaltyre said:

Just like MP gained from fatigue, there is NO NEED to declare a move action to use movement points.They can be spent any time during your turn when you are not performing an action. Before doing an action, after finishing an action, or you can interrupt a move action to spend them. If your turn ends, those MP are gone forever.

 

What if Knight with Trident is defeating monster and would like to use "Advance" ability?
Is it possible to:
1) perform attack
2) spend two movement points (from Trident)
3) use "Advance" ability

 

And another doubt: what if hero performs two attacks - both with surges. I suppose that he can cumulate movements points (2+2) and use them after both attacks. Right? 

 

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1) Advance is considered to be an interrupt. As such it is not possible to perform actions or non-actions between the  attack that defeated the monster and Advance. Furthermore, as the movement from Advance is not a move action, it cannot be voluntarily interrupted.

2) Yes, all movement points accumulate in the movement point pool and may be spent during the Knight's turn when ever you like. However, actions other than move actions cannot be interrupted to spend movement points.  

Zaltyre likes this

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Ok lets do one more.

Assume Trident is used to gain movement points out of turn, using an ability like Guard (When enemy figure enters an empty space adjacent to this hero, exhaust this card to immediately perform an attack against that figure.  After resolving this attack, enemy figure resumes its turn as normal).

So, Knight performs the attack and uses the surge to gain 2 movement points.  Can the movement points be spent out of turn?

 

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There was an uFAQ on that some time ago. The answer was that movement points received during another player's turn must be used immediately as an interrupt or be lost.

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Then again, in the Shards of Everdark topic there was a question about Trident + One Fist heroic and there it was ruled by FFG that the movement points couldn't be used..

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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Thanks Sadgit,

 

So then that would suggest that a Knight using Guard and Advance could attack an enemy figure moving adjacent to them, kill the monster, gain 2 movement points, but could NOT spend them before using Advance to move up to their speed, attack a second monster figure, gaining 2 more movement points (total 4 unspent), and could then immediately move 4 spaces before allowing the OL to resume their turn? 

 

Edit: AtomAge

I think there is some merit to that, since RAW its not your turn, so you cant spend movement points.

 

Edited by Silidus

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@Atom: Good point. My interpretation of this uFAQ focusses on the statement that the movement points need to be spent before the active player resumes his turn. Thus, the attack with the Trident would be resolved, then (and only then) the movement points can be spend as a (second) interrupt. With One Fist's Heroic feat this is not possible as he is knocked out as part of his feat and the feat cannot be interrupted to spend movement points. Thus, no window of opportunity exists to spend those movement points.

@Silidus: Yes, that is exactly my take on this.

Edited by Sadgit

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