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TURRETS ARE EVIL (AND UNSTOPPABLE!)

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PWTs aren't the problem.

The term PWT includes Outer Rim Smugglers, Wild Space Fringers, and all K-Wings. It does not include anything with the Outrider title.

A ship is a problem when it has a turret, it hits hard, and it's hard to kill. Also having a great dial doesn't hurt.

The simple fact that a ship possesses a primary weapon turret is not a requirement to being OP and having one doesn't make you OP.

Edited by Koshinn

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As a Fel and Jake player I can tell you that barrel rolling and boosting does not take much skill so let's not pretend we're performing surgery here. More often than not the better player is going to win the match. If you're constantly losing then it might not be your build or matchups, it might be you.

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Not liking turrets =/= constantly losing to them.

Funny how it's the pro turret side that feels the need to lower things to personal attacks time after time, FYI guys insulting the other side does not make your argument stronger in fact it has quite the opposite effect.

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I dunno hobo. I think both sides seem to be prone to resorting to personal attacks. Read any thread on the subject, including this one. That was unfair to level that statement without examing your own side. Especially because I don't think frying pan is attacking an individual or disparaging anyone, he just suggested that the player has a lot to do with the result of a match, not just the ships.

He makes a good point. Large base turrets gets the easy mode label, is flying an a-wing or interceptor that much more difficult? I'm pretty sure all ships require some effort, is there a scale that various ships fall onto?

Jacob

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Not liking turrets =/= constantly losing to them.

Funny how it's the pro turret side that feels the need to lower things to personal attacks time after time, FYI guys insulting the other side does not make your argument stronger in fact it has quite the opposite effect.

I don't compare the turret whiners to children smearing ice cream on their face, and I don't call them fools. As for sides, I don't actually often play Fat Turrets; I'm just against incessant whining, especially when it's illogical.

Edited by z0m4d

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As a Fel and Jake player I can tell you that barrel rolling and boosting does not take much skill so let's not pretend we're performing surgery here. More often than not the better player is going to win the match. If you're constantly losing then it might not be your build or matchups, it might be you.

 

skill is always relative

 

for example, the amount of skill you have to put into not getting blocked or not being able to roll because of intervening obstacles (both during the action and which will screw you in the next turn) ships is far greater than pointing at a ship in range and rolling dice.

 

we are indeed not performing surgery, we're playing x-wing after all, but let's not try to pretend that Jake or Soontir are anywhere near as forgiving as fat PWTs nor even that easy to use relative to the rest of the game.

 

granted, blocking is a mite bit harder to do with only 2ships, but that's the meta's fault

 

 

plus, as our hobo and savior said, losing to != having a bad time against. playing a boring game is infinitely worse than playing a losing game as a losing game can be very enjoyable. The objective is to win, the point is to have fun.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The point is, when one claims 'easy mode' they throw your opponent under the bus of a potential variety of misconceptions and display a rather unfriendly attitude.

 

 

PWT fatties are indeed easy-mode at the moment because its simply easier to win a game with one. That doesn't mean auto-win or unstoppable, but its a hell of a lot harder to win a tourney with 3 Interceptors or A-wings or even a swam than with a Fat Han.  Win, lose, or draw, its just not fun to play against a ship you can't out-maneuver, but can easily out-maneuver you. Ever see 2 dual YT lists play? X-wing instantly becomes purely a dice game...why even bring models? Not to mention: Fat Han and Cheery are the best Arc-dodgers in the game at the moment due to having 10+ PS and being able to shoot regardless of where they end up after boosting/barrel-rolling.Think about that. Autothrusters were added to the game because even the Devs realized how ridiculous PWTs were against arc-dodgers, and PWT-reliers  screamed bloody-murder when they were announced. It'll be nice to go back and laugh at these threads when PWTs inevitably get nerfed in the near future, be it by FAQ or X-Wing 2.0.

 

Until then, Ill stick with my mantra from another thread:

 

 

Playing Interceptors:

 

hWrA8ws.gif

 

Playing Fat Turrets:

 

oFYIk4m.gif

Best post ever

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I dunno hobo. I think both sides seem to be prone to resorting to personal attacks. Read any thread on the subject, including this one. That was unfair to level that statement without examing your own side. Especially because I don't think frying pan is attacking an individual or disparaging anyone, he just suggested that the player has a lot to do with the result of a match, not just the ships.

He makes a good point. Large base turrets gets the easy mode label, is flying an a-wing or interceptor that much more difficult? I'm pretty sure all ships require some effort, is there a scale that various ships fall onto?

Jacob

When in order to do thing A you need to do 5 things and in order to do thing B you only need to do 3 of those, it's hard to argue B is not easier than A.

All ships need to worry about maneuvering in order to: avoid enemy arcs, avoid obstacles, avoid bumping into other ships and get the enemy in arc. First two points are valid for fat turrets as well, third much less so as Fat Turrets typically have only 2 ships on the table and don't usually fly in a tight formation and 4th is also completely invalid for fat turrets due to 360 degree weapon coverage.

Also, fat turrets are way more forgiving than many other ship types make a mistake with an ace and he's usually dead before next round. Make a mistake with a fat turret? Consequences are much less drastic.

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Funny how it's the pro turret side that feels the need to lower things to personal attacks time after time, FYI guys insulting the other side does not make your argument stronger in fact it has quite the opposite effect.

 

 

 

Until then, Ill stick with my mantra from another thread

 

Playing Interceptors:

 

hWrA8ws.gif

 

Playing Fat Turrets:

 

oFYIk4m.gif

Best post ever

 

 

No further comment necessary.

Edited by z0m4d

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I find Interceptors just as easy as turrets to fly. There actually aren't any real difficult ships to fly.

By "fly" I mean make choices regarding maneuvering. A shuttle is easy to fly because it has limited choices - with a tiny bit of practice you can maximize its potential... it just has a low potential.

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I do think anyone who believes interceptors are as easy to fly as PWTs just really hasn't played either ship, because come on. This is as objective as you can get.

 

it's really not that complicated. Neither Interceptors nor A-wings nor PWTs have the means to get actions outside the action step, and only Tycho can take actions when stressed. You can lose actions through a.) bumping b.) obstacles (either through rocks or stress from debris c.) more stress (red maneuvers or control)

 

So, what can these ship builds get when you lose your actions?

 

 

Soontir Fell (PTL, SD or shield, thrusters): 3/4 agility, 3 hull, possibly 1 shield if you are countering cheri, thrusters (if applicable), pilot ability (if k-turning into a block, you get a focus *yay*)

 

Jake (PTL, VI, Thrusters, prockets): 3 agility, 2 hull, 2 shields, thrusters (if applicable)

 

PWT (predator, gunner, c3po/isanne, Rebel Captive for Cheri, EU): 0/1 agility, 8 or 12 hull, 4 or 5 shields, Predator, Gunner, Pilot Ability, C3PO/Isanne (no Isanne if stressed), Rebel Captive for Cheri

 

that's not even getting into how much boost helps Fell and Jake align their arcs to shoot things, whereas PWTs just scoff at the idea of having to face their target

 

and that's not even getting into how, if Jake or Fell have to run, they don't get to shoot at the things they fly past. PWTs, though?

 

the action-dependency of the interceptor type ship gives it a far higher skill floor than a PWT. Because of it, these ships can be crippled through means available to every single squad in the game (blocking and making use of obstructions) and because of their health they can get one-shot very easily without defensive tokens (especially soonts). Even better, when getting blocked or forced through an obstacle, odds are their arcs won't be facing the right way to get a good or any shoots off.

 

A PWT loses only its normal action. That's it. It can't get one-shot and it's given slots to carry around several upgrades that don't give a crap about getting blocked or obstacles (sans Isanne debris). Best of all, their facing doesn't mean ****. They will always get an almost fully modified shot on you so long as you have a shot on them, unless they park on a space peanut (which disallows attacks for every ship/pilot in the game, even Dash Rendar).

 

If you make a mistake or are outplayed while using soonts or jakes, they're like going to die on that very round. If you make a mistake or are outplayed with a PWT, they probably won't even get one-rounded by the entirety of a tie swarm unloading at them.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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It's late so excuse me if not able to get my point across right but it feels like the skill gap for the game is getting smaller and smaller. I think it's mainly due to factors like players getting better, solid lists, people getting experienced. My last 2 regional it feels like it's all about who makes the least mistakes and whose dice are with them. If I'm playing someone new and experienced then yeah its a steam roll but average to what I consider really good players the matches feel the same. People are landing on rocks, they aren't flying off the edge, not forgetting tokens, not getting devastatingly blocked as much, not putting themselves in bad positions. All things that mean people are getting better. Can match ups come into it yeah I think so to an extent but it's not the end all be all. Dice might go your way and they may not. But as soon as a bad play is made or a mistake happens it us ally starts determining who is gonna take it.

Are turrets more forgiving? Yeah, they're a way safer bet because they can't be 1 shot. Is forgiving a bad thing? Heck no, as someone who would fly 3 interceptors before autos I know how much life can suck once one of your ships got 1 shorted. If I decided I'm flying turrets today you best believe part of it is because I want my point investment to last as long as possible. List building and tournament play is all about giving yourself as many advantages as you can.

Edited by AtomicFryingPan

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Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

 

Jacob

 

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

 

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

 

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

 

 

What that tells me is that a lot of people are playing them. How many Fat Turrets crash and burn at the bottom of the rankings?

 

 

Less % than make the top 8.  

 

 

They're being picked often because they give the best chance of winning with the smallest margin of error. Obviously, if everyone and their dog brings a PWT to a tournie, SOMEONE has to lose.

 

They're being picked often because people think that. Whether or not its true is only peripherally related: if they're at least balanced to the rest of the game (as opposed to old TIE advanced underpowered) and people think they're power pieces they'll take them and inflate their win numbers, which makes them look powerful. Vicious cycle. We had it with the TIE swarm and we had it with the TIE phantom.

PWTs win all the time because they're popular and there are a lot of them. They also get some artificial help in tournaments in the form of consistency (often more valuable than power in a tournament) and from the "point forts" that MoV makes them into.

 

 

 

 

 These things can actually be checked by regionals that have reported in Listjuggler.  I've posted this in another thread, and I'm sure analysis as to the degree will vary but current results are as follows:

 

YT 1300, YT 2400, and Decimators make up 24.27% of all points in reported regionals.

Those same ships make up 29.98% of elimination rounds.  All three of these ships see an increase, though the YT2400 is very small (.2%).   

 

(This can be broken down by named pilots as well, but I don't have time right now)

 

While I'm not sure how significant this difference is (a 20% increase) this is since I'm not a math expert, I'm going to guess that it's more than simply random.  In other words, I'd at least be confident with those numbers saying that it not simply popularity that causes them to be seen so much in the top lists.

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The point is, when one claims 'easy mode' they throw your opponent under the bus of a potential variety of misconceptions and display a rather unfriendly attitude.

 

 

PWT fatties are indeed easy-mode at the moment because its simply easier to win a game with one. That doesn't mean auto-win or unstoppable, but its a hell of a lot harder to win a tourney with 3 Interceptors or A-wings or even a swam than with a Fat Han.  Win, lose, or draw, its just not fun to play against a ship you can't out-maneuver, but can easily out-maneuver you. Ever see 2 dual YT lists play? X-wing instantly becomes purely a dice game...why even bring models? Not to mention: Fat Han and Cheery are the best Arc-dodgers in the game at the moment due to having 10+ PS and being able to shoot regardless of where they end up after boosting/barrel-rolling.Think about that. Autothrusters were added to the game because even the Devs realized how ridiculous PWTs were against arc-dodgers, and PWT-reliers  screamed bloody-murder when they were announced. It'll be nice to go back and laugh at these threads when PWTs inevitably get nerfed in the near future, be it by FAQ or X-Wing 2.0.

 

Until then, Ill stick with my mantra from another thread:

 

 

Playing Interceptors:

 

hWrA8ws.gif

 

Playing Fat Turrets:

 

oFYIk4m.gif

 

 

 

 

 

U MAD BRO?

tumblr_lscl059juD1qixscao1_500.gif

 

Fine here is your Falcon Nerf!

51Oyo5IZkqL._SX425_.jpg

Best part is that it can't fire out of firing arc!

 

Actually to be honest this is playing interceptors

1dark_green_dice.jpg

doesn't matter how many sides it has once blanks show up it's dead!

 

But fear not Emperor Palpatine is here on the Decimator to save the day for the Imperials.

743pv7l.jpg

Please hate him some more! it makes him so powerful that he can even change your dice to all blanks!

Edited by Marinealver

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Yeah, pile stress, ionize, or block a PWT fatty and it dies. If it were overpowered, or broken, or whatever, it would consistently pull out wins in those situations.

Jacob

Yours, mine, or anyone else's opinion is just an opinion.

Factually, aren't lists with at least one PWT pulling way more wins than any other kind of ship at Regionals (if I counted well in the Regionals thread there are 41 winning lists with PWTs and 30 without)?

Wouldn't that hint that maybe PWTs are currently a stronger type of ship than any other?

What that tells me is that a lot of people are playing them. How many Fat Turrets crash and burn at the bottom of the rankings?

Less % than make the top 8.

 

They're being picked often because they give the best chance of winning with the smallest margin of error. Obviously, if everyone and their dog brings a PWT to a tournie, SOMEONE has to lose.

They're being picked often because people think that. Whether or not its true is only peripherally related: if they're at least balanced to the rest of the game (as opposed to old TIE advanced underpowered) and people think they're power pieces they'll take them and inflate their win numbers, which makes them look powerful. Vicious cycle. We had it with the TIE swarm and we had it with the TIE phantom.

PWTs win all the time because they're popular and there are a lot of them. They also get some artificial help in tournaments in the form of consistency (often more valuable than power in a tournament) and from the "point forts" that MoV makes them into.

These things can actually be checked by regionals that have reported in Listjuggler. I've posted this in another thread, and I'm sure analysis as to the degree will vary but current results are as follows:

YT 1300, YT 2400, and Decimators make up 24.27% of all points in reported regionals.

Those same ships make up 29.98% of elimination rounds. All three of these ships see an increase, though the YT2400 is very small (.2%).

(This can be broken down by named pilots as well, but I don't have time right now)

While I'm not sure how significant this difference is (a 20% increase) this is since I'm not a math expert, I'm going to guess that it's more than simply random. In other words, I'd at least be confident with those numbers saying that it not simply popularity that causes them to be seen so much in the top lists.

The YT-1300 is under represented (19%) in the final 8 compare to its overall showing (21%). If anything, it under performs slightly relative to other units.

And let's not kid ourselves. Most of the hate is very specific: Han Solo YT-1300 with Falcon title, engine upgrade and C3P0 crew, possibly also gunner or Chewie or R2D2 crew. Most complainers are complaining with complaints complaining about the YT-2400 or Decimator in their complaints that they complain about.

Edited by z0m4d

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Most complainers are t complaining with comaints complaining about the YT-2400 or Decimator in their complaints that they complain about.

 

What?

 

Also, I hate Super Dash the most of all the fat turrets. His maneuverability and action economy is insane. He wrecks builds composed of normal ships the hardest. The distance a mere green soft one + large ship boost + large ship barrel roll carries you is obnoxious.

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The YT-1300 is under represented (19%) in the final 8 compare to its overall showing (21%). If anything, it under performs slightly relative to other units.

And let's not kid ourselves. Most of the hate is very specific: Han Solo YT-1300 with Falcon title, engine upgrade and C3P0 crew, possibly also gunner or Chewie or R2D2 crew. Most complainers are t complaining with comaints complaining about the YT-2400 or Decimator in their complaints that they complain about.

 

 

Could you explain which numbers you are using, especially since 20% is high for any numbers that include YTs in regionals lists or top 8?  No ship is that represented (1 in 5!) in any form by points, number, etc..  

 

The way I read it, by ship count, YTs represent 4.32% and 7.44% by points (again looking at regionals only).  Then when I click on regional and elimination and regional both, the ship count jumps to 5.54% and by points 9.76%.  That's a definite increase in YT 1300s no matter how you read it.  I'm really not sure what numbers you are using, but the base numbers themselves can't be accurate at all since, as I said, no ship represents 1/5 of all ships or points taken, no matter how you slice it.

 

You are correct that named YTs actually do better (well, except poor Lando, but there aren't numbers shown for him).  Chewie is 2.34% (ship count) and 3.82% (% points) and then jumps to 3.3% and 5.51% in elimination.  Han is 1.76% (ship count) and 3.27% (% points) in swiss and then bumps to 1.96 and 3.72, respectively.    Han is actually much tempered, interestingly by comparison and Chewie is outperforming him.

 

It's actually RAC that shows the biggest jump in any of the turreted ships with a 3.36% (ship count) and 6.59% (% points) in the total field and he jumps to 5.09% and 9.94% in elimination.  There's no other pilot that even comes close to that kind of improvement after swiss.  It's also interesting that he's taken a lot in terms of percentage of points (#2), more than any other pilot except for the blue squadron, and the blue squadron don't show much of an improvement.

Edited by AlexW

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I think you're an exception.  Most complainers complain about Fat Han.

 

Super Dash is interesting since his numbers actually drop from swiss to elimination, albeit by a very small margin and the difference has been closing -- I'll be very interested to see what it looks like by the end of regionals.   My theory there is that he's a bigger swing ship.  There are more list he tears apart, but that there more hard counters to him because of his weaknesses.  Take him with an HLC and he is vulnerable to higher PS ships getting in the donut.  Take him with a Mangler and autothrusters prove very effective against him as well as cause less damage overall.

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So in both this and bothan/data thread, you're relying on 1) data saying something when it's actually saying the exact opposite and 2) the incorrect assumption that people who are concerned with the PWT mechanism are only 'really' or 'normally' concerned with fat han.

Incorrect on both counts. Can we take it that you'll be changing your conclusion to fit the corrected premises? Or will you instead just drop in new premises and keep the same conclusion? I know which my money's going on...

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