Dev Diary on the Morality system is up

[Revanchist7 459]

I'm still not totally happy with how the emotional strengths and weaknesses trigger.  It's either every session or never.  Assuming it still works the same as the errata.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Revanchist7

[Blackbird888 4,110]

Jedi don't roll dice.

 

As in, throughout what we see (considering canon, would mostly be the cartoons), when somebody is in mortal danger and a Jedi character acts to save them, there is no hesitation. They don say: 'I'll save you! *roll Force dice* Oh, to bad, I only have dark pips. Sucks to be the you.' And saving somebody's life, as far as I see, is ever treated as a bad thing, but kind of the entire point of the Jedi. Only when saving one life results in the knowing death of multiple others is it treated as bad.

 

And even still, when you take the action, you take the action. You worry about consequences second. Again, never do I see a savior Jedi pause and take the time to consider if that will drag him to the dark side. So even if, yes, the individual did draw on the dark side, score some conflict, they deal with the consequences after the event. The only way I can imagine that sequence thematically is somebody is plummeting to their death while staring up at an ally or friend or whatever, knowing that they have the means to save them and then spending the last moment of their life watching them not.

[ShiKage 282]

 

I'll say I avoid conflict the plague, and the price I typically pay for it is that I won't use Dark Pips.

 

Your friend is falling down a cliff roll Move to save him.

 

*rolls 3 dice, rolls 3 dark pips*

 

...Sorry, bro, but it looks like it's your time to become one with the Force.

 

"You seriously let my character die."

 

'Fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side. Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Miss them do not. Mourn them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. I am therefore letting go of everything I fear to lose.'

 

"...I don't care if it's G-Canon, d*** move bro."

Letting someone die is different than moving on after their loss.  I'd give out Conflict for that, probably more than would be generated from just using the dark side to save them.   It's Conflict, it's internal, it's the result of even having to face that situation.

 

It's also not the important bit.  Conflict is simply potential, the Morality roll at the end of the session is that actual change that occurs.  Maybe you roll well, the experience drives you to be a greater Jedi, to be strong enough to save everyone next time.  Or maybe you roll poorly, and the guilt takes its toll on you, regardless of how many times you repeat Yoda's words to yourself.

 

If EU terms work better, you're Atris from KOTOR 2.  So determined to rebuild the Jedi at any cost that you don't even realize you've fallen to the dark side.  It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.

 

 

This point has come up a couple times in this discussion but I think it's an immensely important part of the mechanic and one that is by some groups being heavily overlooked. Sure, Yoda says that one must be willing to let go of those they care about and let them die at times. That the fear of loss is the path to the dark side. The problem is actually believing that is a totally different matter. That is the heart of what the conflict points are there to represent. So, sure.. you let your friend die.. you have a Yoda quote to backup why that is a 'good' choice. Any REAL sentient being is going to struggle with that choice no matter how many quotes they have to back it up and that struggle is represented by the gain of some conflict points.

 

To top it off, I think the idea of backing up your choices by quotes, examples or reasons displayed by other characters in the world.. ones which your own character almost certainly has never met and nearly as likely has never heard of, is a poor approach in it's own right. The Morality system isn't about if someone ELSE has a good reason for the choice, it's about if YOU have a good reason for your choice. WHY is it your best choice in that moment? Strong character based reasoning for it. If the answer is: I don't want conflict from dark pips.. that is the wrong answer. If the answer is that you were full of fear in that moment and your mentor warned you that fear is a path to the dark side and that memory caused you to hold back, failing to save your friend, that is a much better answer.. still, I'd say it's worth conflict. The answer itself even says there is a sense of emotional conflict in that moment.

 

The point of the Morality system isn't 'did you follow the Jedi code' it is about 'did you suffer from an personal internal conflict because of that choice'.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

(since the quoting system on these forums blows chunks....)

 

ShiKage's line of "The point of the Morality system isn't 'did you follow the Jedi code' it is about 'did you suffer from an personal internal conflict because of that choice'" pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

The prequels themselves show that the Jedi Order weren't 100% correct in how things should be done.  They had become victims of their own success, more concerned with the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law in regards to the Jedi Code.  Ultimately, the Jedi Code is a series of suggested guidelines rather than a strict doctrine, a way to live while being in tune with the galaxy in a way that will minimize the internal conflict one might feel.  In terms of attachments, the Jedi Order on a whole was hypocritical, since they were attached to a Republic that had pretty much failed and were spending all their effort propping up a corrupt Senate, especially during the Clone Wars.  Anakin was supposed to be something of a wake-up call that the Jedi only heard when it was much too late.

 

Even Kenobi, who has been used for decades as the measuring stick for what a model Jedi should be, is not infallible.  His line in RotJ about "a certain point of view" regarding Anakin's fate has been rightly called a falsehood, a lie told to a young man that wasn't even remotely close to being ready for the heavy burden of the truth.

 

For Yoda on Dagobah, it's easy for him to preach a certain set of ideals because he's completely removed himself from the galaxy and is only watching from the sidelines; he's very much being an armchair quarterback while Luke is the one that's actually out there on the field.  It's easy to preach a set of rules on how to live, especially when you've removed oneself from all temptation like Yoda did and become an isolated hermit.

 

If anyone out of the six films really had a clue on how to act in regards to being both a Jedi and a decent human being, it was Qui-Gon Jinn.  He was willing to bend if not break the rules to do the right thing, but within limits.  Yes, he tried to mind-trick Watto, but that was only to get the merchant to accept the form of currency that Qui-Gon had, but it should also be noted that Qui-Gon was willing to pay a fair price for those parts; if Watto had said "sure, I'll take Republic credits, but it'll cost you a bit more," Qui-Gon would have shrugged off the increased price and said "okay, here you go."  It's questionable if he used a full mind-trick or just a bit of Force-enhanced suggestion to get Boss Nass to provide his group with a transport, but he only did that after explaining his reason for being on Naboo and learning the Gungans wanted nothing to do with the human residents of Naboo, and made it a point to politely thank Nass for his help.  He certainly didn't have to help Jar-Jar, and Obi-Wan was quite willing to leave the fool behind, but Qui-Gon stuck his neck out for the guy, figuring that some help from one of the locals was better than none and probably also disagreeing with the idea that Jar-Jar should be punished simply for trying to help a couple of off-worlders.  He probably would have been just enough of a rule-breaker (from the POV of the stodgy and hide-bound Council) to have been able to properly train Anakin and address the uniqueness of the boy's situation in contrast to how Jedi had been trained for centuries, helping Anakin to work through his fears and worries instead of just reciting platitudes and telling him to ignore those feelings the way Obi-Wan had.

[ShiKage 282]

On top of all of Morningfire's points on this subject.. we also see numerous instances of the fact that even when faced with doing the right thing and follow the code, many of these Jedi examplars still face personal internal conflict.

 

I think the best example of this is Obi-Wan vs Anakin on Mustafar. Obi-Wan had to stop Anakin, he knew deep down it was necessary and the right thing to do. However, Anakin was also his closest friend and like a brother to him. As Anakin crawls forward along the ash, burning and in pain Obi-Wan is most obviously suffering internal conflict, I would say he is likely angry as he yells at Anakin that he was to be the chosen one, that he loved him like a brother. It doesn't mean that he has fallen to the dark side but he most definitely suffered conflict for that encounter.

 

Heck, for decades afterwards this still weighs on him. He is afraid to teach Luke, doubts that he is capable, worried that Luke might also turn out like his father.

 

 

And this is a man held as en example of being a good Jedi, who was trained from youth to know, understand, and follow the Jedi Code for years. The standard character for F&D does not have this advantage, most have no idea what the Jedi Code is for the most part, or Jedi for that matter. If they do, this is all quite new to them, it isn't in grained in them and taught to them since they were a child. The chances are much higher that they are going to question if what the code tells them they should do is really the right thing to do or not when faced with a truly difficult choice.

Edited July 12, 2015 by ShiKage

[whafrog 10,384]

So I play something like, "Vader pushes Han off a cliff with the Force. Luke goes to save him with Move. But at that particular point, he's full of Hate that his dad would do such a thing and dares not use the Force. Han goes splat while Luke ends up meditating on 'there is no Death, there is the Force.' Vader curses, he was SURE his son would fall for that and he'd be able to overthrow the Emperor with his son at his side..."

 

The flaw here is twofold.  First, assuming the dice mechanic represents how the Force flows in the movies or has to translate directly into a story element.  And second, that the dice mechanic and results somehow represent an anthropomorphized Force's desired moral outcome-of-the-moment.  That's far too mercurial to be interpreted that way...if a round is a minute, the very next minute the Force user could get all white pips.  Did the Force change its mind?  In think the morality of the action in question is completely divorced from whatever pips are rolled.

 

Part of the point of flipping a DP and taking Strain to convert dark pips simply represents the Force user's unfamiliarity with the Force and the dangers inherent in calling on the Force at all.  A Force user needs clarity above all, and that comes with experience.  It's a fair cost, and it doesn't have to mean that the Force user's intentions-of-the-moment are evil just because they used dark pips.  It means they had to struggle to retain clarity.

 

Also, the Force dice aren't supposed to be a replacement to indicate what the right and moral course of action is in a given situation...if you're using the dice that way then you're not making any moral decisions yourself...surely that's a dark side thing to do.  Moral questions will always have both a subjective and objective facet.  If you rolled all dark pips when you need to save your friend, it doesn't mean you shouldn't, it means you aren't entirely in control of how you are tapping into the Force or you really have to work to retain/regain your clarity of purpose.  What a higher FR gives you is more consistent insight and control, it's not a moral indicator.

 

Personally I don't really like the Morality mechanic (and the Conflict generation because of converting dark side pips), first because of this type of confusion, and second because there really isn't a scale.  You can't make up for murder (10+ conflict) by helping a lot of little old ladies across the street.  When people fall, they fall hard; when they are redeemed or strive to be paragons, it has to be at great cost.  Tallying conflict at the end of an adventure, as Dono suggested earlier, might be a way to handle that with more drama, but I think personally I'd prefer to leave people at "50" until they do something awesome or terrible that the whole table can agree upon, and then move them to or across the relevant moral border.  I don't think I'll be giving Conflict for the choice of using dark pips.  It's their actions that matter.

Edited July 12, 2015 by whafrog

[whafrog 10,384]

For me, he's proven to have about as much to usefully contribute to a discussion as ErikB/Slypheed did on it's best day...

 

You toss that out with great regularity to anyone you can't agree to disagree with.  Who asked you to get personal and play board cop?

[Angelalex242 101]

Jedi don't roll dice.

 

As in, throughout what we see (considering canon, would mostly be the cartoons), when somebody is in mortal danger and a Jedi character acts to save them, there is no hesitation. They don say: 'I'll save you! *roll Force dice* Oh, to bad, I only have dark pips. Sucks to be the you.' And saving somebody's life, as far as I see, is ever treated as a bad thing, but kind of the entire point of the Jedi. Only when saving one life results in the knowing death of multiple others is it treated as bad.

 

And even still, when you take the action, you take the action. You worry about consequences second. Again, never do I see a savior Jedi pause and take the time to consider if that will drag him to the dark side. So even if, yes, the individual did draw on the dark side, score some conflict, they deal with the consequences after the event. The only way I can imagine that sequence thematically is somebody is plummeting to their death while staring up at an ally or friend or whatever, knowing that they have the means to save them and then spending the last moment of their life watching them not.

 

Heh. I have experience with the rather silly results of rolling dice.

 

I had Move, and my friends were jumping down a building story. Not fatal, not going to kill anyone. I make it down myself smoothly with Force Leap.

 

Then I go to cushion the fall of the others, but only if I happen to roll Light Side Pips.

 

So I was sitting there going OOC: Force doesn't like you today. Sorry, Vader's calling collect. Force doesn't like you...oh, hey, the Force likes the slicer for some reason. Why not? So I cushion his fall...

 

That said, if using DSPS just had the strain attached and didn't have a moral quandry attached, I'd probably just eat the strain instead. That's what my strain rating is there for. How much I can tank using the Force when it's difficult.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Angelalex242

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

To the rest of the folks in this thread, I'd suggest just skipping this but of drama on whafrog's part and simply proceed with the actual discussion on hand.  I'd have preferred to handle this via PM like a responsible adult, but since he's intent on publicly calling me out...

 

 

For me, he's proven to have about as much to usefully contribute to a discussion as ErikB/Slypheed did on it's best day...

 

You toss that out with great regularity to anyone you can't agree to disagree with.  Who asked you to get personal and play board cop?

 

If you'd rather have a thread locked because of consistently heated arguments flaring into out and out attacks, that's your choice.  And if you'd bother to actually read my posts, something you've admitted to NOT doing on more than on occasion, you'd find I only bring that individual up as an example of the lowest form of trash these forums have every had to suffer, with many of the long-standing posters knowingly exactly the sort of worthless drivel that troll spewed out before thankfully flushing himself down the toilet.

 

But since I've been directly thanked by various FFG staff on several occasions for being a voice of reason on the forums (as difficult as you're likely to believe that), I'll take their opinion over yours any day of the week.  To say nothing of the LIkes that particular post got and the PMs I received from actual worthwhile posters on these boards that thanked me for being a voice of reason and a non-official reminder to play it cool and not sink to Angie's level in trying to state their points.

 

But by all means, feel free to continue with your single-minded belief that I'm the Anti-Christ come to drag these forums to the bowels of the Inferno and ruin everyone else's fun.  But if you really and truly think I'm overstepping my bounds, then by all means report my posts to the actual moderators and let them decide, something that I've advised folks to do that on multiple occasions in the past.  And to this date, the only moderator contact I've received was an unofficial thank you for being a voice of level-headed reason in a thread that was about to get locked due to how heated the arguments were getting.  But since you've called me a two-faced liar in the past without a shred of evidence other than your biased opinion of me, I'm sure you'll call me a liar on the above as well.  You've shown zero signs of changing your spots in your perception of me, so I doubt you'll change your tune about me now.

 

At least you've got a new friend in the "I hate Donovan Morningfire" club, and I'm sure you and Angie will be the best of e-buddies, so by all means enjoy yourselves.

[Decorus 672]

Problems with Morality and Conflict.

 

1. You do nothing and you become a lightside paragon in a few session with dice rolls.

 

2. In six game sessions not a single present player's morality has triggered.

 

3. Being a Paragon either way gives buffs, but actually triggering either way does nothing for your Force powers which is very much not how it works in the movies. Luke's Anger is shown to boost his abilities a great deal the same with Ezra's fear. There are numerous times in the movies, cartoons, comics and books where emotion is shown to increase the power of a force user which when playing a cinematic roleplaying game is shockingly absent.

 

4. Lightside/darkside pips actually hurt roleplaying to the point where a scene where I'm attempting to protect my party members from injury turns into me suddenly despite not having any reason having to go darkside to do what is obviously a lightside action and completely ruining the scene as we have to come up with some half assed reason I'm channeling the dark side.

 

Honestly I'm of the opinion the entire force system needs to be rewritten to actually be playable.

[ShiKage 282]

4. Lightside/darkside pips actually hurt roleplaying to the point where a scene where I'm attempting to protect my party members from injury turns into me suddenly despite not having any reason having to go darkside to do what is obviously a lightside action and completely ruining the scene as we have to come up with some half assed reason I'm channeling the dark side.

 

I don't quite follow this one. Based on how the use of force powers is described in the beta rules if you roll no lightside pips then you are left with two options.. First, you fail to tap into the power of the force and your effect fails to occur. Much like Luke attempting to lift his X-Wing from the swamp. Secondly, you flip a destiny point, suffer strain and convert some darkside pips. Doing this is not a reflection on if the action itself is light or dark but that you are choosing to access the darkside of the force. You are making a conscious decision to channel the dark side. The game isn't FORCING you to flip those pips, you are choosing to do so.

 

I wouldn't think there's a need for a half-assed reasoning since you made this choice for some reason in the first place.. Do you just not want to fail (Arrogance)? Do you not want to see your friends harmed or killed (Fear or Hatred perhaps)? I mean, you could have let the power fail to work but decided to use tap into the available darkside of the power.. now you have to deal with that choice.

[Angelalex242 101]

Hence why I tend to avoid using DSPs.

 

Basically, how I think of it...

 

Every time you use a DSP, no matter the reason, no matter the excuse...

 

You can image Sidious standing there in the corner going, "Good, Good my young apprentice. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! With every passing moment you become more my pupil. Let your Hatred flow through you..."

[MTaylor 138]

Firstly, Angelalex is wrong; the devs clearly say you are expected to use Dark Side pips, which is why there's only a small penalty for it. 

 

Also, I like a lot of Donovan's posts, but I wish he'd just agree to disagree. There's no One True Way of how to play, surely. And comparing people to ErikB feels a bit like Godwin's Law.

 

As for the article... I'm not sure why what the movie characters would do is important. By RAW, you're not 'Jedi' or even trying to be. You're not part of any 'Order' so nobody can throw you out for not following the rules. Maybe in a game where you have to explain your actions to your superiors, what Yoda thinks might be important. Otherwise, it's not important at all. 

 

The devs example seems to strongly imply that 'Morality' is meant to be personal. You're not necessarily following some doctrine or dogma, just the extremes of your own personality.  You're choosing between 'Enthusiasm/'Recklessness', not 'save the orphans/burn the orphans'. 'Dark Side' here doesn't mean you eat puppies.

 

My real problem with the system is what Decorus mentions above. This should 'trigger' when it's thematically appropriate, not on a random roll.

 

And that there's no real incentive to explore both sides of your morality.  The system only rewards a big push to one end of the spectrum, and defaults to doing nothing anyway, so if you try to explore both sides of your character you're mechanically hurting yourself. That feels wrong somehow.

Edited July 13, 2015 by MTaylor

[Angelalex242 101]

That depends on when the game is set. And yes, I've been told before that the devs expect people to use DSPs. However, in every game i've played to this date, I didn't know that. So my experiences with the system are based on the premise a good jedi doesn't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole, and it's colored my experiences to date.

 

Also, the presence or abscence of a Jedi Order depends on entirely on when the game is set. Which, if you're using the EU/Legends, could be in any number of times. One of the games I was in WAS set in the NJO, after all, run by Luke and Mara and so on. Just cause Disney threw it out doesn't mean the books ceased to exist.

 

Equally, a game could be set in 20 BBY, before Anakin's fall in 19 BBY. Which has all the Old Order's rules and regulations in effect.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Angelalex242

[Juriel 16]

Luke's Anger is shown to boost his abilities a great deal the same with Ezra's fear. There are numerous times in the movies, cartoons, comics and books where emotion is shown to increase the power of a force user which when playing a cinematic roleplaying game is shockingly absent.

 

Yeah, this is a pretty big deal. Tapping into your emotions could have been easily tied into the 'lure' that Dark Side is supposed to hold, but I'm just not seeing it in the game.

[Narr666 38]

-

 

Caveat: I've not playtested F&D beta or anything.  What if instead of rolling for Morality at the end of every session, only rolling when conflict is generated?  So if a character goes through a session with 0 conflict, simply don't roll.  Thoughts?
 
Edit: I like Dono's thought of making it the end of the adventure instead.  That works too.

Nah, no conflict = you were a goodie two shoes and your morality will go up big time. So not rolling would screw a player out of a well earned morality boost.

 

Actuallly, I misunderstood the rules and did exactly that: Conflict 0 no roll. And I don´t tell my Jedi how much Conflict he gets for a certain action. And - and that is hillarious- I complimented the rules for this very fact I misunderstood.

And yes Inquistor Tremayne, for us it works beautifully, you should try your idea.

 

And for Ghostofman: You can explain it like we do. No Conflict = no growth. You cannot grow mentally, if your believes are not challenged (you can see it also by the critism "Sleepwalk your way to Paragon. No one gets wise that way. A do-gooder is only just that, but he´ll not get wise.Simply doing good is more of a proof of simpistic world view than a path to enlightment) It is a more modern way of thinking, but it´s really more fitting to walk the fine line between light and dark. And it makes the the Jedi much more interesting.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Narr666

[Decorus 672]

I personally think Conflict should happen often and when it triggers either for strength or weakness they should gain or lose conflict and get a bonus force pip on the next force power activation dark or light depending on which it is. It should be a natural flow not something you randomly roll for Joe to get a major conflict this session. Also I personally believe people who use an emotional strength or weakness multiple times in the course of the game should add it to their morality.

[Narr666 38]

Additionally I´ll like to invite you to a different view on the Conflict mechanic.

 

Don´t know if this is intended, but I´ll like to contribute how I see it anyway.

 

It´s called “Conflict”, not “taint” or “evil”, so a Conflict represent a challenge to your believes. By getting a Conflict, you´ll do something that SEEMS right, but is in question. Take the KOTOR beggar. You know that people who coming to you begging for credits, wanting 500 or so credits because they´ll get off this planet/ help their sister/ get a licence to get a job.

A simplistic Jedi would give him the credits. A person who thinks about it will see that this is decision is not what so simple as it seems to be. Maybe you can help him with that, but there are thousands if not millions who have the exact same problem. You aren´t doing any good giving some random guy money, you just did a mindless act of kindness, without thinking about the injustice your doing to all the others. Helping him would be working on the root of the problem and not curing the symptoms. Additionally, you take the opportunity for him to grow on his hardship.

Even an evil deed could be a challenge of your believes rather than egoistic. Maybe you should destroy the villain, how many people will suffer if you let him live? Maybe you should steal that money, you are trying to save the Galaxy by the way and NEED that money more than this merchant does.

 

As for dark side pips, emotion make seem handling Force Powers easier. Maybe you should use the emotions to power them, if you need it, only a bit.

So, these Conflicts go through the Jedi mind, he´s asking himself, if he did the right thing or not. He´s reflecting his teaching and understanding the philosophy of moral choices and how one choice can have many consequences. These thinking may be represented by the die roll. If he rolls higher, he had drawn wisdom from that. He may have not giving the beggar money, but he has understood the greater picture. He may have killed the villain, but he can distinguish between his egoistic hatred and the greater good.

 

If he rolls lesser, he draws the wrong conclusions. He grows arrogant, he did not see he may did something for selfish reasons, he did not understand the ways of the Universe more. Maybe he likes the power the emotions give him, maybe he feels entitled to do whatever he wishes, because he tries to rescue the Galaxy. And he´ll be a Sith before he knows it.

So, with this view, to grow wiser you HAVE to generate Conflict, but you try to get less. Mechanically, the player does not know what will happen next and this can go wrong. Maybe he plays a challenging of his believe by doing something, that generates 1-2 Conflict. But maybe later there will be a fear roll that generates 3 Conflict, or stands before an odd choice, where he should do something. Narratively, a Jedi simply follow the written teachings blindly cannot understand them. He may be secure from the Dark side, but he cannot draw greater wisdom so he can teach others.

 

With that mindset, the Morality system is very interesting in my opinion, making Jedis more three- dimensional, baiting players to explore Conflict and shys a bit away from the baby-eater decisions.

 

And additionally, it is not a far stretch to use 0 Conflict = no roll.  

Edited July 13, 2015 by Narr666

[whafrog 10,384]

Every time you use a DSP, no matter the reason, no matter the excuse...

 

You can image Sidious standing there in the corner going, "Good, Good my young apprentice. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! With every passing moment you become more my pupil. Let your Hatred flow through you..."

I don't see the point of that interpretation, it's far too extreme. Every little action becomes this epic moral test, the impact of which swings wildly from moment to moment. It completely removes the character and their moral test from the actual moral implications of the situation. It removes the player from responsibility over the state of mind of their character and you might as well not be roleplaying.

If you want to Force Move a jar of jam from the top shelf, that shouldn't involve an epic moral test, especially since you could just wait a minute and get an entirely different result. You're basically arguing that at 8:03AM, your character is too filled with hatred to get that jam; but at 8:04AM your character is completely at peace and it is the jam's Destiny to come down...

The Strain and DP flip are plenty enough of a penalty to represent the character wrestling with how they tap the Force and *not* giving in to the dark side. I wouldn't give Conflict for that.

[whafrog 10,384]

Secondly, you flip a destiny point, suffer strain and convert some darkside pips. Doing this is not a reflection on if the action itself is light or dark but that you are choosing to access the darkside of the force. You are making a conscious decision to channel the dark side.

You're not channeling the dark side, you're struggling to let the Force flow in a controlled manner. That's what the Strain cost is for, and the implication is that by paying the Strain cost, the flow is controlled. If you interpret it as channeling the dark side it devolves every action into a micro-parsing of moral intent.

[ShiKage 282]

 

Secondly, you flip a destiny point, suffer strain and convert some darkside pips. Doing this is not a reflection on if the action itself is light or dark but that you are choosing to access the darkside of the force. You are making a conscious decision to channel the dark side.

You're not channeling the dark side, you're struggling to let the Force flow in a controlled manner. That's what the Strain cost is for, and the implication is that by paying the Strain cost, the flow is controlled. If you interpret it as channeling the dark side it devolves every action into a micro-parsing of moral intent.

 

 

That may be your preferred way of looking at it, but according to RAW that isn't the case. From the Beta rules (unless this text was updated in an errata I missed):

However, the dark side of the Force is always offering easy power, tempting a Force user to give in and accept its aid. A Force-sensitive character may use one or more DSP to generate one additional FP each—in addition to those generated by the LSP. The consequences that come with this choice can be dire, and can gravely affect the individual who gives in to this temptation.

 

This quite clearly states that making use of the DSP is giving into temptation and tapping into the dark side of the force. That is, IF you use them. That isn't saying that because you rolled all dark side pips that you are too full of anger or hatred or whatever to move the jar of jam but lack the focus to do so in a clear and focused manner at the time. BUT you can choose to tap into the dark side that is there, tempting you, to do it. If you make that choice to flip those pips then you are using the dark side as per RAW.

 

I'm not saying this is necessarily the best way for the mechanic to be handled, just that it is how it is written in the beta rules.

[Jegergryte 1,978]

With the FaD beta dark side characters (i.e. Morality <30) have to flip destiny points and take strain to use LSP.

[whafrog 10,384]

I'm not saying this is necessarily the best way for the mechanic to be handled, just that it is how it is written in the beta rules.

 

...proving I should have reread before commenting, thanks for the quote.

 

But RAW just feels too arbitrary.  Force and moral tests should come at a time of high emotion and be story driven, not driven by a mechanical accident.

[ShiKage 282]

...proving I should have reread before commenting, thanks for the quote.

 

But RAW just feels too arbitrary.  Force and moral tests should come at a time of high emotion and be story driven, not driven by a mechanical accident.

 

Well, getting that quote chopped down was certainly quite the task. Anyhow.. IF the devs want people to use DSP then definitely the system seems to work against this as most people are not going to want to use a destiny point, take strain and suffer conflict for using them. That is a fairly hefty price for an extra point or two for your force power. To top it off, they describe it as dipping into the temptation of the dark side of the force.

 

For role playing purposes I would do this in dire situations for sure, and that seems mostly what is geared for as it is written. Moments like, Oh crap, my friend is falling if I don't force-cushion his fall or similar then he is going to die. Or, Evil Bad Dude has just said he has my family hostage and I need that extra boost to be able to take him down now and go save them.

 

Also, I do agree that the current conflict system doesn't seem quite right. You should have to actually overcome your weakness to rise up towards lightside. If you are never in a situation where you actually have to try to resist temptation or your emotional weakness then you're not really becoming a true paragon. A variation on what had been said earlier: It's easy to run a smooth, level road on a clear and sunny day.. but if you want to be a world class runner you need to push yourself and face challenges.

[whafrog 10,384]

Or, to put it another way...you don't get to be Yoda by just showing up for work...