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Orjo Creld

You Blew It Part 1 Spoilers!

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I'm breaking this into a couple of posts because I expect to be flamed on several levels. Granted, I have not finished a walk-trough of the Mountain top Rescue, But I found myself thinking FFG missed a chance by setting the game in the rebellion era. Jedi are all but extinct in the period. Instead you should set it in the prequel era when Jedi have "work to do." Instead of a no place like Spinter, set the rescue on Naboo, or Cato Nemoidia or even Kamino. I realize your market researchers came back from comicon telling you everyone hates the prequels, but I think it's a shame to blow off half the canon because of some bloodthirsty fanboys. I'd love to see stats on Naboo starfighters and Jedi aethersprits, and other war machines of the era. Instead of learning negotiation skills talking to a holocron ghost, why not have them deal with a trade Federation viceroy. The OT era is well represented by EoE, which I love, and AoR, so it would make sense to set F&D in prequel times. Plus, think of the depth of game play if the F&D players wend their way through the fall of the republic. Starting there, they findthenselves wiped out by Order 66 and must create new characters for EoE or AoR. Later I will discuss how I will run the beginner game to include major characters that will give heft to everything that comes after. Sorry, this is my game too, and I think you made a mistake here.

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FFG can't make PT stuff. Something to do with their licence. It's LFL that wants everything OT.

Plus, if it were PT, it wouldn't be the third component of their three component cross-compatible RPG.

 

No reason you couldn't set it just after Order 66 though. Also no reason you couldn't do a PT one, although you'd need to come up with new stats. That's the advantage of this sort of physical game, you can adapt it to your needs however you want.

Edited by Blue Five

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I think there may be some misinformation present in both above posts.

 

As far as I can tell from listening to the game designers and developers talk, it's not a licensing thing, and it's not a market-research-everyone-hates-the-prequels thing. It was their own collective love of the Rebellion Era, and the original trilogy, that drove Jay and the rest to set the RPG squarely into the Galactic Civil War. 

 

So...yeah, I mean, the obvious solution to me is just to do everything the OP mentioned for your own games: set it on whatever world you like, in whatever era you like, and re-skin everything to your heart's content.

 

Just watch out for the FFG Fun Police...they will send Inquisitors if they hear you're gaming in other eras. 

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As far as I can tell from listening to the game designers and developers talk, it's not a licensing thing, and it's not a market-research-everyone-hates-the-prequels thing. It was their own collective love of the Rebellion Era, and the original trilogy, that drove Jay and the rest to set the RPG squarely into the Galactic Civil War.

 

It applies to pretty much everything FFG makes though, and there's been a marked OT-ward shift since Disney bought Star Wars. Look at Battlefront, for example.

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As far as I can tell from listening to the game designers and developers talk, it's not a licensing thing, and it's not a market-research-everyone-hates-the-prequels thing. It was their own collective love of the Rebellion Era, and the original trilogy, that drove Jay and the rest to set the RPG squarely into the Galactic Civil War.

 

It applies to pretty much everything FFG makes though, and there's been a marked OT-ward shift since Disney bought Star Wars. Look at Battlefront, for example.

 

 

That's very true. I'm just going on what Steve Horvath said a while back, that "there was no mandate" when it came to designing in the Rebellion Era. It was just something the decided to do, internally. But it is interesting that they're thematically sticking to the Galactic Civil War. In a way it's nice, because I know exactly what to expect in each game, and I can go from the Card Game to X-Wing and almost feel like I'm still playing in the same story. You know, elements can carry over and my friends and I, while we're playing X-Wing, can describe the conflict we had during an "Edge Battle" in the Card Game and pretend like there's this massive battle going on just off-screen. 

 

(Still haven't played Imperial Assault, but it looks sweet...and I could see it working in the same way)

 

Overall it seems like FFG have had a lot of free reign in terms of what elements they have included in their games: Mara Jade and Dash Rendar come immediately to mind, and I know there are lots of other "EU" elements (ships, etc) that made it into the Card Game. Disney doesn't seem to be issuing gaming mandates or micro-managing FFG in the least. At least not from what I can tell.

 

The biggest bummer for me is just in terms of that stupid "electronic content" limitation in the license contract that doesn't allow FFG to sell any Star Wars PDFs. At least they were able to get the dice roller out on the App/Play Stores!

 

 

Still, here was the time and place to thrill us prequel fans, Now it never will be done

 

Is that really true? I didn't hear anything about no prequel-setting games. That would make me sad to know it's not a possibility.

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The ultimate reason for FFG to have focused all of their Star Wars games (RPG, Living Card Game, X-Wing/Armada, Imperial Assault) is generally that's the era that for a lot of fans really defines Star Wars, in particular the designers who themselves grew up with the original Star Wars trilogy.  And for a number of the older fans (who are going to be the ones with the disposable income to spend on such products), the same holds true.

 

Also, a significant portion of the generation that "grew up" with the Prequels as their big introduction to Star Wars are in the late teens to mid-20's bracket, and generally speaking don't have an excess of disposable income for things like RPGs or minis games.

 

As it's been noted, yes a lot of Disney's focus since procuring the license has been on the Rebellion Era, but FFG had set their games in and around the Rebellion Era well before the House of Mouse was a factor.  The EotE Beta was released in August of 2012, and was probably in development since at least 2011 if not sooner; rumor goes that FFG had the license as early as 2010, so quite possible that Jay Little and crew could have been working on this system since then.

 

Maybe it's just the circles of Star Wars fans I hang around in, but it seems there's something of... well, not quite a backlash but maybe just a sense of "so what?" in regards to the Prequel Era.  Again, it's the older crowd (the 30 and over group, of which I'm a part of) that this attitude exists, and part of that may have been due to TCW spending a lot of it's screen time on Jedi characters, especially Anakin and Obi-Wan, that we'd prefer going back to a time frame where you could swing a dead womp rat and not hit a couple dozen lightsabers in the process.

 

Plus, from what I've seen and heard (bearing in mind this is anecdotal evidence at best), it seems that for a number of GMs, having the Galactic Empire as a sort of over-arching adversary group lends itself better to campaign stories than the frankly comical Separatists of the prequels, and that the PCs not having the extensive resources and/or backing of the Republic and/or the Jedi Order also leads to more compelling/interesting stories, as the PCs have more of a struggle against a very visible adversary that's a major threat and without a slew of resources to fall back upon.  I think WEG started running into a similar snag with the New Republic era, where the Empire was in retreat and the former underdog Alliance was now the dominant political power in the galaxy, especially for games set after the Heir to the Empire series.

 

For the prequels, the setting is also a bit of a downer for the players because unless the GM is wiling to throw canon out the window, the good guys ultimately lose.  In contrast, with the Rebellion Ere the players know that their struggles against the Empire are going to very much matter because the good guys ultimately win (again unless the GM is willing to throw canon out the window).

 

Now what's going to be interesting in the months to come is how the new canon lays out the events between RotJ and Force Awakens, particularly in regards to the Empire not completely collapsing and the fate of the Alliance.  Yeah, the two major villains of the Rebellion Era are dead and gone, but it would seem the Rebellion's victory at Endor was no longer as major as many of us originally thought, particularly as the New Republic no longer seems to be a thing.

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Plus, from what I've seen and heard (bearing in mind this is anecdotal evidence at best), it seems that for a number of GMs, having the Galactic Empire as a sort of over-arching adversary group lends itself better to campaign stories than the frankly comical Separatists of the prequels, and that the PCs not having the extensive resources and/or backing of the Republic and/or the Jedi Order also leads to more compelling/interesting stories, as the PCs have more of a struggle against a very visible adversary that's a major threat and without a slew of resources to fall back upon.  I think WEG started running into a similar snag with the New Republic era, where the Empire was in retreat and the former underdog Alliance was now the dominant political power in the galaxy, especially for games set after the Heir to the Empire series.

 

For the prequels, the setting is also a bit of a downer for the players because unless the GM is wiling to throw canon out the window, the good guys ultimately lose.  In contrast, with the Rebellion Ere the players know that their struggles against the Empire are going to very much matter because the good guys ultimately win (again unless the GM is willing to throw canon out the window).

 

And now for a counterpoint: I had no issues running a game for 10-ish years in the prequel era despite the players having the full backing and resources of the Jedi. There were always plenty of bad guys to deal with - be it corrupt Republic officers, Separatists up to no good, fallen Jedi broken by the war, or underworld agents using the chaos as cover for their own schemes. Sometimes it was people doing bad for the right reasons, sometimes it was mustache twirling supervillains - but there was no shortage of folks to throw at the players. And then you add in whatever back-stories the players bring to the table for their characters and yeah, it was one of the better games I've run.

 

As for the bad guys winning, we were looking forward towards it. The slow progression of the galaxy slipping into madness, the sword of Damocles waiting to drop at any time and them doing what they can to keep the peace and build for the future. Plus it was fun as a GM, having carte blanche to try and kill the characters when Order 66 rolled around. Everyone had a blast and it was a truly epic ending to a memorable game - we're even toying with doing a Next Generation sequel to those characters someday.

 

Like you said, anecdotal - but it can work.

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Is that really true? I didn't hear anything about no prequel-setting games. That would make me sad to know it's not a possibility

 

Well, I didn't get flamed at all,  and I made my point I love the prequels because as a good father, I introduced my 10 yo son to Star Wars and geekdom through the Episode 1 big screen experience. Still, seems to me the Jedi game would be better served in the PT era. I think FFG fell victim to group think. Now, with the new films coming, TCW gone. I'll be left to craft my own Rise of the Empire world. Thanks for the discourse

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Still, here was the time and place to thrill us prequel fans, Now it never will be done. but I think it's a shame to blow off half the canon

 

Okay, I see the edit, but I still don't understand why FFG can/will never produce anything in the prequel era? Granted, they might well choose to develop for the sequel trilogy (that'd be a rational choice), but I was just wondering if they had said something like they were never going to be doing anything with a Clone Wars theme.

 

Regarding "blowing off half the canon"...I dunno, I guess I don't really view the Star Wars canon as a bunch of modular pieces. To me, it seems that they have simply focused on a specific era for the time being (whether or not they develop something with a Clone Wars theme remains to be seen!) so as to tell the best, most complete story possible. And they really didn't blow anything off...they talk about the Clone Wars, the Old Republic, and the Jedi Order all over the place in their rulebooks. Blowing it off would be pretending it didn't exist, and that's not at all what they've done. They've brought the prequels into the game in the only way that is thematically reasonable: by including it as part of the galaxy's past. 

 

 

Still, seems to me the Jedi game would be better served in the PT era. I think FFG fell victim to group think.

I doubt the FFG staff are in that sort of dysfunctional community! Corporation decision, and adherence to a specific vision, does not equate with groupthink.

Now, with the new films coming, TCW gone. I'll be left to craft my own Rise of the Empire world.

I understand that bit. And I have done it from the beginning. It was fun for me! I made my own Jedi career and everything, ran a pre-Clone Wars game for some friends, back in the EotE Beta days. It was really a blast. I've also been playing a PbP game in New Jedi Order Era using the FaD rules.

If you need help with any world-crafting, the fine folks in this community are always (in my experience) more than happy to throw all sorts of ideas your way :) But with the advent of the FaD Beta, you can really put the game in any era at all and it works with just some re-skinning.

Sorry any of the above comes off as overly negative. Hope you are able to craft your prequel-themed game without too much difficulty! And if you need help, it's here for the asking.

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I do not get it ... there is a ton of material about the prequels / Clone Wars out there, much more of that canon than information about the OT actually. The rules are perfectly fine for playing other eras as well. What is keeping anyone from playing in that era?

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I do not get it ... there is a ton of material about the prequels / Clone Wars out there, much more of that canon than information about the OT actually. The rules are perfectly fine for playing other eras as well. What is keeping anyone from playing in that era?

Some folks prefer to stick to officially published material, or simply lack the time/energy to create the homebrewed material they'd need for games set outside the Rebellion Era.  To say nothing of coming up with adventures centered in those eras.  Some GMs are good at making up adventures on the fly, or have the time to properly write such adventures up.  But there's a substantial number of GMs that lack either of those, and thus rely upon the official material.  Got one friend that would love to GM more than he does, but being a single father of three kids, the oldest of whom is just entering middle school eats up a lot of his time to the point he's lucky if he gets one night a week to play.

 

There's also a contingent of folks that find the FaD rules to simply be underwhelming in terms of reflecting the Jedi we see in the media (nevermind that said presentations are focused on the super-stars of the Jedi Order as opposed to the rank and file Knights).  In that respect, they're kind of right because FaD was never really meant to let the PCs become bona-fide Jedi (at least not yet; that might change in a future sourcebook down the road).  A FaD PC is more akin to Luke in the OT than any of the Jedi we saw in the prequels or TCW.  Even Kanan in SW Rebels would probably be pretty exceptional compared to most FaD PCs, and he was only a Padawan when Order 66 went down.

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Some folks prefer to stick to officially published material, or simply lack the time/energy to create the homebrewed material they'd need for games set outside the Rebellion Era.  To say nothing of coming up with adventures centered in those eras.  Some GMs are good at making up adventures on the fly, or have the time to properly write such adventures up.  But there's a substantial number of GMs that lack either of those, and thus rely upon the official material.  Got one friend that would love to GM more than he does, but being a single father of three kids, the oldest of whom is just entering middle school eats up a lot of his time to the point he's lucky if he gets one night a week to play.

 

Being a GM takes time, work and effort; as someone who usually GMs I know that. Existing adventures may reduce the time needed somewhat, but for me that is usually balanced by having to adapt them to my groups anyway. If someone really wants to play Clone Wars, it does not really take that much more to do it. You are investing a lot already, this adds only a little compared to that.

 

There's also a contingent of folks that find the FaD rules to simply be underwhelming in terms of reflecting the Jedi we see in the media (nevermind that said presentations are focused on the super-stars of the Jedi Order as opposed to the rank and file Knights).  In that respect, they're kind of right because FaD was never really meant to let the PCs become bona-fide Jedi (at least not yet; that might change in a future sourcebook down the road).  A FaD PC is more akin to Luke in the OT than any of the Jedi we saw in the prequels or TCW.  Even Kanan in SW Rebels would probably be pretty exceptional compared to most FaD PCs, and he was only a Padawan when Order 66 went down.

 

That is easily fixed by giving out more / extra XP, so I fail to see how it can be an argument. Wanna play superhero Jedi? Add 500, 1.000, 5.000 XP to character generation and go nuts taking down battle droids by the dozen.

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The issue with just handing out stupid amounts of XP is that you very often wind up with players simply overlooking or out-and-out forgetting about things their characters had purchased.

 

I saw this quite often during the playtesting of Stay on Target and Desperate Allies, where we built high-XP characters in order to test out the new talents and signature abilities... and over half the players forgetting entirely about lesser talents because those characters hadn't evolved naturally from their starting point.

 

There's also the concern (and a valid one) that while 500 XP is enough for a Jedi-type PC to start coming into their own, that same amount of XP is where the players of an EotE or AoR character feels they don't have much left to do in terms of evolving their character without going outside their core concept.  I'm in a mixed game currently where the PCs have earned around 350 XP on average, and while my Shii-Cho Knight is slowly coming into his own (just picked up Niman Disciple) he's still got a ways to go, but in the meantime the Explorer/Fringer/Slicer is starting to feel he's hit all the main points for his character, having gotten 4 ranks in his major skills and delved pretty far into the Slicer tree, and the Bounty Hunter/Gadgeteer/Mechanic is starting to feel the same, as any new trees he picks up is just going to make him even tougher than he already is (Brawn 4, soak of 8 in his laminate armor, and a wound threshold of 19) and require the GM to throw adversaries that could wipe out most of the party to challenge him if he got any beefier.

 

I'm also in an on-hold Dawn of Defiance game with the PCs mostly being EotE chraracters, and while we're only at the 300 XP mark currently, a couple players are also feeling like their characters are coming up on their end game.

 

For a party of just FaD characters where everyone wants to be some form of Jedi, then simply doling out huge amounts of bonus XP at character creation or some other set of crazy bonuses can work.  But for a mixed game, which it seems a number of folks are doing, that's not much of a solution, especially for those groups that have played other Star Wars RPGs and are sick of the Jedi PCs stealing the limelight because they're simply so much more awesome right out the gate than the non-Jedi PCs.

 

Obviously it's a matter of opinion as to where the line of "gone too far" lies, but FFG has opted to err on the side of caution, perhaps as a response to the large outcry of how broken Force uses could get in Saga Edition.  The idea of "Knight Level Play" is probably FFG's way of offering a bone to those groups that want their psuedo-Jedi types to be formidable individuals instead of working their way up from scratch like EotE and AoR characters normally have to.

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The issue with just handing out stupid amounts of XP is that you very often wind up with players simply overlooking or out-and-out forgetting about things their characters had purchased.

 

I saw this quite often during the playtesting of Stay on Target and Desperate Allies, where we built high-XP characters in order to test out the new talents and signature abilities... and over half the players forgetting entirely about lesser talents because those characters hadn't evolved naturally from their starting point.

 

Yeah, but if you want to start with PT-level Jedi, who have a lot of abilities, you can hardly complain about having too many abilities, can you? I mean, having lots of abilities and being awesome is the point, is it not? You cannot have the cake and eat it, too. High powered characters are usually more complex (although one could certainly strive to build character with mostly passive abilities or invest heavily in skills and such), so if you want high-powered Jedi, that is the price you pay. Yes, a full-blown Jedi Knight with years of training and experience is more challenging to play than a Padawan, ability-wise at least. Hardly a fault of the game system, simply a matter of fact pertaining to the setting.

 

There's also the concern (and a valid one) that while 500 XP is enough for a Jedi-type PC to start coming into their own, that same amount of XP is where the players of an EotE or AoR character feels they don't have much left to do in terms of evolving their character without going outside their core concept.

 

That is not a valid concern, that is simply the usual problem of mixing heroes and super-heroes. You can either accept that all are created roughly equal or accept a very diverse power-level within any given group. The game line assumes roughly equal power for everyone, but nobody is forcing anybody to not boost Jedi to superhuman levels and leave the rest in the dust. There is no alternative, either the mundanes get as much shiny stuff as the Jedi or they do not, depending on your view of the universe.

 

But for a mixed game, which it seems a number of folks are doing, that's not much of a solution, especially for those groups that have played other Star Wars RPGs and are sick of the Jedi PCs stealing the limelight because they're simply so much more awesome right out the gate than the non-Jedi PCs.

 

In that case, the group obviously has different views and expectations of the game, and no amount of rules will fix that. You cannot create a rule set that allows Jedi to be supremely powerful while not outshining mundanes at the same time (or at least it would be very different and probably extremely narrative due to narration being the one thing that can even everything out). So the hypothetical group in question has to work out what they want to play, how they want to play and see if they are either comfortable with Jedi starting at a lower power level or trusting their GM to grant each character their time in the spotlight despite a great disparity in power levels.

 

Groups have to find a consensus about basic stuff like that anyway, that is not endemic to this game line. I usually sit down with everyone and discuss what we will be playing and how we will be playing, so that we all start on the same page and avoid disappointment or disillusionment.

 

Obviously it's a matter of opinion as to where the line of "gone too far" lies, but FFG has opted to err on the side of caution, perhaps as a response to the large outcry of how broken Force uses could get in Saga Edition.  The idea of "Knight Level Play" is probably FFG's way of offering a bone to those groups that want their psuedo-Jedi types to be formidable individuals instead of working their way up from scratch like EotE and AoR characters normally have to.

 

Well, I would rather have a rules set that starts low and can be very easily customized for higher power levels than one that starts high, because it is usually much more difficult to scale down than to scale up in RPGs.

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The ultimate reason for FFG to have focused all of their Star Wars games (RPG, Living Card Game, X-Wing/Armada, Imperial Assault) is generally that's the era that for a lot of fans really defines Star Wars, in particular the designers who themselves grew up with the original Star Wars trilogy.  And for a number of the older fans (who are going to be the ones with the disposable income to spend on such products), the same holds true.

 

Also, a significant portion of the generation that "grew up" with the Prequels as their big introduction to Star Wars are in the late teens to mid-20's bracket, and generally speaking don't have an excess of disposable income for things like RPGs or minis games.

 

 

I am sorry to break your bubble but it's not the younger people who dont have the income for games, it is the old men. Seriously, a young adult has less Financial responsability that a family father.

 

I play both the LCG and Armada and the people I met in league and store championship are mostly people who grew up with the prequels. So it's a big fail if FFG chose the OT only to please their pontential customers. 

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The ultimate reason for FFG to have focused all of their Star Wars games (RPG, Living Card Game, X-Wing/Armada, Imperial Assault) is generally that's the era that for a lot of fans really defines Star Wars, in particular the designers who themselves grew up with the original Star Wars trilogy.  And for a number of the older fans (who are going to be the ones with the disposable income to spend on such products), the same holds true.

 

Also, a significant portion of the generation that "grew up" with the Prequels as their big introduction to Star Wars are in the late teens to mid-20's bracket, and generally speaking don't have an excess of disposable income for things like RPGs or minis games.

 

 

I am sorry to break your bubble but it's not the younger people who dont have the income for games, it is the old men. Seriously, a young adult has less Financial responsability that a family father.

 

I play both the LCG and Armada and the people I met in league and store championship are mostly people who grew up with the prequels. So it's a big fail if FFG chose the OT only to please their pontential customers. 

 

Hate to burst yours, but I know plenty of cases where the exact opposite is true, and that 18 to 25 crowd have very little disposable income once their basic needs are met, while the 25 to 40 crowd have the extra money to spend on things like game books and minis, and that's including families with more than one child.  Having the time to play those games is another story, but the income to purchase them isn't.

 

Also, the 18-25 crowd is more focused on the instant gratification provided by video games.  Now before you get your drawers in a twist, there are always going to be exceptions.  I know a couple of 30+ year olds that spend most of their gaming funds on the latest consoles and hot titles, including one that buys the latest sports games when they come out, even if the changes from one year to the next are miniscule.  I know some guys fresh out of college that love table-top RPGs and loathe video games in general.  I know one individual that was very lucky to get a high-paying job at graduation (over $16/hour to start) at graduation, and I know people in their 40's with no children that are struggling to make ends meet working for what amounts to slave wages.

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