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surly88

What happened to BBBBZ?

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Debris are not a problem, a B-Wing can still be dangerous even loaded with stress. It is when you need to play the arc dodge game with someone that the stress kill you.

 

The problem with Debris for BBBBZ isn't that the Debris is particularly detrimental to the B-Wings (it isn't).  The problem is that the Debris won't stop a PWT from shooting.  When five ships are effectively blocking, they can often steer a large based ship on to an Asteroid and cost it a valuable round of shooting.  Replacing three of those Asteroids with Debris makes this much less likely and improves the chances of the two ship list.

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Also, I saw a lot of Han + Jake....  is this a thing now?  I thought Fat Han was normally 3Zs.  Is this better atm?  Better cuz of MOV?  I feel like Jake dies too fast still. 

Jake and Katarn is pretty solid. And if katarn has an Ion, he can potentially ion and be helpful as well as boosting (or barell rolling!) Jake IN THE COMBAT PHASE. That is  the only thing that makes this very strong is the adder level of arc-dogeability.

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Han and Jake works well because Jake is really card to pin down and can punch pretty hard with prockets before bugging out. He and Han combine fire to knock out whichever is the biggest threat, then he can just preserve points for the rest of the game.

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Also, I saw a lot of Han + Jake....  is this a thing now?  I thought Fat Han was normally 3Zs.  Is this better atm?  Better cuz of MOV?  I feel like Jake dies too fast still. 

 

Could be arc dodgers with a bunch of green dice. If you can arc-dodge Z-95s and have enough green dice that you're not too worried about 2 red dice: What about A-Wing, Proton Rocket, Push the Limit + Jake Farrel's free boost/narrel roll action with Veteran Instict Pilot skil boost? 

 

On the offence he can do something similar with the procket alpha strike.

Edited by moppers

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Can't wait for kbbb

 

K-Wing + Jan Ors

B-Wing + FCS

​B-Wing + FCS

​B-Wing + FCS

(3 points left for whatever, maybe a Ion Pulse Missile for that "I screw you up" moment or that new advanced homing missile if it is anything good)

 

sound oddly fun to have B-Wings with evade tokens. Make them really hard to take down by 2-ships list.

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sound oddly fun to have B-Wings with evade tokens. Make them really hard to take down by 2-ships list.

 

You mean just one B-wing with an evade token.  Jan is limited to once per round.  

 

I have seen Jan used with high-value B's, like Keyan or Ten, but she'd be something of a waste for generics, IMHO.  

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Sorta related question. Is it worth getting 5 Khiraxnckejdhdksk's? I love 4BZ. Gotta decide if 5x3 dice attacks are going to be worth it.

I don't think I'll go the full 5. It will be a POTENT jousting squadron, but it will have weaknesses. Having 5 ships with the same weakness means your opponent can exploit the hell out of it.

So I've been interested in flying:

60: 3 Kazakhstans

40: 2 Y-Thugs w/ Autoblaster Turret

It's got more hitpoints than 5k, and the Y-wings can heard arc-dodgers into kill zones.

Besides, it still sorta stings that I bought 5 scyks. So I think I'll stop at 3... :/

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Can't wait for kbbb

 

K-Wing + Jan Ors

B-Wing + FCS

​B-Wing + FCS

​B-Wing + FCS

(3 points left for whatever, maybe a Ion Pulse Missile for that "I screw you up" moment or that new advanced homing missile if it is anything good)

 

sound oddly fun to have B-Wings with evade tokens. Make them really hard to take down by 2-ships list.

 

 

jan ors can't or could ever hope to live up to the sheer hilarity that is intelligence agent when 3/4 of the list can move after they maneuver, and 1/4th of it can maneuver twice

 

besides, you could just slap her on a 4th B-wing for better returns. You could also slap int agent on a B-wing (2, in fact, if you're running four FCS BSPs) but then you're not enjoying SLAM blocking and A-SLAM mines

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, when you start playing squads with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

Edited by phild0

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I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, a when you start playing squada with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

This is why I can't wait for the raider and the new age of AC/DC variants to rise to power. They get to avoid issues with reliability while maintaining that classic 4/5 ship flavor.

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It gets hard countered by certain ships/lists because it's such a one dimensional list. It's lack of speed means it can't play the positional game very well, which is amplified when you fly it in a formation.

It also can't control it's opponent through stress or ion like panic attack and can't block like a tie swarm.

Add that to the fact that the meta is filled with ships that excel at positional play and I'm not at all surprised that it doesn't do very well.

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I think everything mentioned above are valid arguments but I feel the biggest weakness is the low pilot skill. Moving first and shooting last allows dodgers to set up flanking shots. With one easy to kill blocker it's hard to pin an opponent for two turns unless you use your Bs. As mentioned pwts can out run or run over the Bs. B-wings excel in a knife fight. The 2K is great when shots are exchanged at bad breath range but if your opponent refuses to fight toe to toe you're in for a bad time. Even at R3 your two green dice can't do much to stop a 4 dice attack.

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Also, I saw a lot of Han + Jake....  is this a thing now?  I thought Fat Han was normally 3Zs.  Is this better atm?  Better cuz of MOV?  I feel like Jake dies too fast still.

It's a thing here on the West Coast. A Jake and the Fat Han list just won the Sacramento Regionals:

Han with Predator, Luke, C3PO, MF, Engine, Jake with PTL, VI, Prockets, Autothrusters, Title

I've played against it....nasty list.

We also saw a 4 x Scyk list almost crack the top 16, going 4-2 for the day.

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Procket Jake's pretty sweet, seeing as he's basically soontirlite. Dude'll take a bite out of even tokened soonts (and basically autokill if you blocked him)

Sad to see him relegated to a pwt's 2nd fiddle de jour, though. I'm running him with four other As :D

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, when you start playing squads with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

This is a much nicer way of stating that normal ship builds have been completely outshined by broken 2 ship power builds that promote nuanceless game play and losing in the list building phase situations. Matches end up being determined by single upgrade cards like whether or not someone has VI to move after Dash or if someone has gunner deci Vader and you brought Fel, or a single lucky evade roll prevents an opponent from getting SIXTY points. You end up with situations where Corran skates by on one health and then your 48 points of TIE Fighters have lost the game right then.

There also used to be measured PS bids. Is everyone flying Academies? I'm going to fly Rookies and blues. Everyone is flying PS 2 rebels? I'm going to fly Obsidians, etc. Now PS bidding is in this annoying binary situation where it matters tremendously if you can outbid your opponent while simultaneously not mattering at all if you're flying normal ships as it's 100% a waste of points to bid for low-mid PS unless you really want to shut down predator.

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I saw someone using BBBAA with autothrusters recently, I think I would prefer playing that to be honest.  It should have better match ups versus turrets.  The A's are also significantly better blockers. 

 

AAAAA

 

that's replacing BSPs w/GSPs packing PTL & thrusters :D

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I think the list doesn't have as many neat tricks, and only gets to use basic play skills to win, so it either isn't as fun, or it doesn't have a built-in tactic that it can use to help win some matchups. Some squads can get outplayed and still win due to some mechanic that makes the matchup easier (stress, turret, arc dodging), Swarms cannot do that, and ONLY get to use the basics.

Also, when you start playing squads with tons of attack action modifiers, playing "classic" squads suddenly feels "unreliable". With no easy way to stack up Rerolls + Focus (besides spending rounds setting up TL), it can be a pain when attack dice aren't average to above average.

I think people are just gravitating more to reliability more than anything, and BBBBZ sometimes fails in that department.

This is a much nicer way of stating that normal ship builds have been completely outshined by broken 2 ship power builds that promote nuanceless game play and losing in the list building phase situations. Matches end up being determined by single upgrade cards like whether or not someone has VI to move after Dash or if someone has gunner deci Vader and you brought Fel, or a single lucky evade roll prevents an opponent from getting SIXTY points. You end up with situations where Corran skates by on one health and then your 48 points of TIE Fighters have lost the game right then.

There also used to be measured PS bids. Is everyone flying Academies? I'm going to fly Rookies and blues. Everyone is flying PS 2 rebels? I'm going to fly Obsidians, etc. Now PS bidding is in this annoying binary situation where it matters tremendously if you can outbid your opponent while simultaneously not mattering at all if you're flying normal ships as it's 100% a waste of points to bid for low-mid PS unless you really want to shut down predator.

 

 

Why don't you just play Wave 1-2 or Core set exclusively then?

 

There isn't some ideal way to play X-Wing. The metagame changes. I was bored to tears of 4 ship lists and swarms by the end of wave 3. 

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