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andysyk1

Are A. Sororitas celibate are Space Marines celibate?

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When it comes to novels, I guess It will probably depend on the author. But I'm pretty sure the SM are celibate. Not out of a sense of chastity, but more because of hypno indocterination, and a sense of " Can't make love! Gotta fight gotta kill! Be the Emperor's angel of death! Oohrah!"

 

Now there is mention of renegade marines doing whatever they feel like, so those guys might get some action (wink wink).

 

The Emperor's Children chaos space marines are most definatly NOT celibate.

 

Now with the sisters of battle: I don't think that it's a requirment to be an adepta sororitas. They were originaly called "The Brides of the Emperor" so that might mean they consider themselves to married to/reserved for Him. But admitedly I'm not an expert on the nuns with the flamers. (Lynata is.)

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Space Marines are chemically castrated.  Of all the chapters, only Salamanders are suggested to live with families, but how this operates I am not entirely sure.  

 

 

Adeptus Sororitas are most likely celibate.  There is no evidence of them producing offspring.  There was though evidence in the Cain novels though that this wasn't entirely accurate. 

 

There are a lot of questions with an evolving story and canonical and non-canonical answers to these particular questions.  

Edited by fog1234

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These are two of several 40k issues which are endlessly debated because GW has never made any official statement one way or the other.  If you take novels as canon (which many adamantly do not), I do believe that there was mention somewhere of a Sororta being involved in an intimate relationship; though I'm not familiar with the source myself.  

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Space Marines are chemically castrated.  Of all the chapters, only Salamanders are suggested to live with families, but how this operates I am not entirely sure.  

 

 

Adeptus Sororitas are most likely celibate.  There is no evidence of them producing offspring.  There was though evidence in the Cain novels though that this wasn't entirely accurate. 

 

There are a lot of questions with an evolving story and canonical and non-canonical answers to these particular questions.  

If I recall, the Cain novels do indicate they are celibate, but that not every Soritas is a shining example of their order (similarly to Cain as a commissar).

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Oh boy, this topic again. :D
 
Alright. The first important thing to understand is that on this level of detail, 40k does not have a uniform canon. There is a high chance that you will find contradictory material in the official sources, so as Mr. Graves already pointed out, it depends on the author. For example, the Sisters' own codex clearly rules out any such relationship, yet one of Black Library's Ciaphas Cain novels (which in the same section also contradicts codex fluff on how the Schola Progenium operates) depicts the opposite. Neither of these perspectives is "wrong", they just cannot exist in the same world, so it falls to you, dear reader, to cherrypick your preferred interpretation. See [here] for some insight from the very people who actually write that sort of stuff.
 
But to add some more substance to the discussion, here is my perspective as shaped by Games Workshop's studio material:
 
Space Marines
 
The semi-fractured nature of the Adeptus Astarted which has resulted in a plethora of different cultures actually leaves us with at least some room for interpretation. Their 3E army book presents us with a timetable concerning their daily activities as prescribed by the Codex Astartes, and barring 15 minutes for introspection there just isn't any time for romance. However, not all Chapters adhere to the Codex and instead follow a modified or even entirely different schedule. The book actually mentions that most deviations tend towards giving the Marines even less personal time, however that still leaves an opening for exceptions.
 
At the same time, it should not be forgotten that we are talking about chirurgically, genetically and psychologically modified supersoldiers created from compatible kids usually aged 10-14 at their time of recruitment, which probably means they did not start out with much experience in romantic attachments to begin with. The initiation itself lasts several (usually 4-6) years and includes a multi-staged implantation, hypnotherapy, indoctrination and severe drug-treatment, during which it seems similarly unlikely the mutating soon-to-be-Scout-Marine would be granted much spare time amidst all the training and surgical procedures. That being said, this does not entirely remove the possibility to "get laid" at least once - the Space Wolf Codex mentions how Lukas the Trickster supposedly bedded many women before being recruited for the Marines, for example. Obviously, the age at which the people on any given world will have intercourse will differ from culture to culture, and thus planet to planet, and Chapter to Chapter.
 
As for "fully grown" Marines, I have never seen a source that outright states they cannot have sex, but anecdotal analysis makes it unlikely. For one, their purpose is war, and only war. The Emperor's scientists attempted not to create a "better man", but to create a tool, a weapon. The urge to procreate interferes with this purpose, and the possibility of Astartes reproducing sexually directly threatens the High Lords' monopoly on Chapter Foundings, which is one of the Senatorum's most important means to keep the Marines in check as per Roboute Guilliman's doctrines regarding division of power. Last but not least, Marine power armour is said to include waste recyclers, which would have to be connected to the occupant's urinary tract. This is entirely hypothetical, but the easiest way to achieve this would be to chop "him" off and install a plug. Given the extensive body modification that happens during the creation of a Space Marine, there is virtually zero reason to leave him *this*, of all things.
 
Still, Games Workshop's Index Astartes also mentions how the process of Space Marine creation has, over the millennia, become twisted in mysticism as the scientific knowledge surrounding the process has gotten lost and replaced by ritual. As a result, many Marine Chapters have developed a flawed geneseed or bastardised surgical procedures compromising not only the success rate of the initiation, but also changing the end result. This means that one could incorporate the above material and still write a Marine Chapter that, for whatever reason, keeps their reproductive organs; they will just have to insert a cathether any time they put on the armour.
 
Adepta Sororitas
 
This is a lot easier, as the codex explicitly rules out romantic attachments, or even this sort of "fun". As per their codex, the Sisterhood as a whole is devoted entirely to its duties, and daily activity is split up between prayer, training and work. They literally do not do anything else, and their convents are intentionally isolated from the rest of the world so as to not distract the Sisters from their holy duties, and protect their spiritual sanctity. It is this extreme lifestyle of self-denial, humility and devotion that fuels their unique resistance to corruption and, together with bodies that have been subjected to a regimen rigorous physical exercise from the earliest years, enables them to at times perform almost miraculous feats of arms on the Emperor's battlefields.
 
Unlike the Space Marines, the Sisters are also not recruited as youngsters, but raised from infancy behind the thick walls of the Ministorum's Schola Progenium, which means they have never enjoyed anything like a normal family life and at most saw the male progena only during religious ceremonies. Also unlike the Space Marines, Games Workshop's Liber Sororitas points out that the various Orders of the Sisterhood all share a singular origin and a unified leadership, which means that barring slight differences in focus on the six different Founding Saints whose personalities many Sisters seek to emulate, there is very little difference between the Orders, so the first paragraph applies to every one of them and leaves no room for exceptions.
 
 
But, as pointed out way at the start, all of this is just what I've gathered from GW's studio books, and alternate depictions in other sources are similarly correct. Pick whatever version you like more - just be aware of how this would affect their theme.
 

 

They were originaly called "The Brides of the Emperor" so that might mean they consider themselves to married to/reserved for Him.

 

Nah, their original name was "Daughters of the Emperor". It was Vandire who changed their name to Brides, and took some of them as concubines. After chopping his head off they reverted to their original name and swore never to let that happen again. Vandire is actually part of the reason for why they and the Schola (which, in GW's books, has instituted strict gender segregation after the Age of Apostasy) became even more hardcore when it comes to this stuff.

 

 

Of all the chapters, only Salamanders are suggested to live with families, but how this operates I am not entirely sure.  

 

In the fandom, it often gets interpreted as if the Astartes becomes some sort of honorary family member. Interestingly, however, the original source (WD #274) paints a somewhat darker picture and lets it sound more like them usurping the role of village leaders, installing themselves as the local overlord of the common people. Indeed, this seems to be a very popular reason for why many young Nocturnians want to become Space Marines in the first place:

 

"The Salamanders maintain very close links with their home world, mingling with the people rather than living aloof as many other Chapters do. The Salamanders are the settlements' leaders, a source of inspiration and guidance for the Nocturne populace, and it is as much this position of authority and respect that young aspirants crave as the chance to become a legendary warrior of the Emperor."

 

For better or worse, popular opinion focuses almost entirely on the "mingling with the people" part and ignores the rest. The vast majority of fans never having read the original material invariably soak up this truncated portrayal either from other fans, or from websites like Lexicanum (which is, in the end, just a wiki edited by the very same people), rather than reading the original source for themselves. In my opinion, this is a huge problem with the 40k community in general, as it "distils" the intended amount of information down to individual fans' personal preferences. As such, my suggestion is always to try and get a hold of those books yourself, or at least request explicit quotes about your topic of interest if you want to verify something.

 

If I recall, the Cain novels do indicate they are celibate, but that not every Soritas is a shining example of their order (similarly to Cain as a commissar).

 

Yes, the Cain novels in particular are playing fast and loose with previously established fluff - not just about Commissars or Sisters, but also how various institutions like the Schola Progenium function.

 

It is quite simply a ... very different depiction of these aspects of the Imperium. As I said before, it's not "wrong", but one should be aware that this is very different from what it says in the codices. In the end, we still have to cherrypick what we prefer.

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Its been revealed in books that the Space Marines can be attracted to humans, but I'm 100% sure it isn't sexual. That was removed to make it easier for them to wage endless war. I'd imagine they'd be a wet noodle in a sexual encounter, if they ever accidentally stumbled into one.

 

TLDR they don't get hard, and don't care

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Well, since we're actually taking this seriously... :D

 

The CSM issue:

 

It is important here to differ between three types of CSM and the personalities that occur and where they come from. The first are the original founding legions who, to my knowledge, were not subject to hypnotic conditioning and other means of brainwashing, and instead followed their primarch's lead entirely. The Emperor's Children, as Rob pointed out, do have sex and are such a chapter. Depending on your canon, so do the Space Wolves, incidentially, who are pretty much the loyalist equivalent of a chaos legion. Legions that did not adapt with Roboute's doctrine thusly likely have no mental block against such actions.Snce GW actually never went into detail on their anatomical corrections in the nether region, wether they are capable to do so is generally up to one's own interpretation. I would point out the removal of such a vital organ and ego supplement without accompanying brainwashing techniques is likely to be traumatising and damage their capability to wage war. I would consider this approach far more likely after Guillimane's reforms.

It is furthermore a consequence of their lack of hypnotic conditioning that, aside from a hormonal imbalance in their brain which, judging by the surviving legions' behaviour, leads to varying degrees of madness, they likely went through the normal human aging process eventually within the ten thousand years of their existence, and are now firmly on the other side of it, so to speak. What that does to their libido, no one can honestly say. The examples given seem to have them stick to behaviour patterns that at times more than boarder on the pathological, so I generally err towards, IF a marine is still interested in sex at that day and age, it's either part of their culture which they never diverge from (Space Wolves "Fight, drink, wench!") or they're one of the chaos legion members who utterly obsesses over it (Emperor's Children, on occassion). After 10k years, it's doubtful there's even any real passion in it anymore or if there is, it's likely an unhealthy, hormone-fueled act of habit or psychotic obsession.

 

The second general type of marine is the codex conform loyalist. They quite literally ger brainwashed. As Lynata correctly pointed out above, there is absolutely no reason for them to function sexually, and they may even have the appropriate organs removed entirely, since, with brainwashing, you do not need to care or worry about combat efficiency.

 

The third type of 'marine' is an utterly unpredictable beast in general terms: The new marine, the genetic supersoldier programs of Fulgrim and the admech. Fulgrim himself is a craftsman who likes to experiment. I would say, results vary from batch to batch and in between models. It fits his personality to make them unique to the very last detail and stunt them in ways his flat out insane mind may think to improve efficiency. The admech, on the other hand, are likely to emulate current imperial techniques, which include physical removal of parts (vulnerable zone? Put a slab of metal there instead!), genetic augmentations without a iota of care for the subject's health (Machines can keep them alive! Trust the Omnissiah!) and cybernetic lobotomy and reprogramming, since for a techpriest, hypnotic conditioning is a waste of time when you can turn someone into a semi-servitor instead.

 

So, there's my answer regarding marines: It varies, depending where they come from and where they've gone in their, at times, quite long lives.

 

As for the sororitas? Nope. Just nope.

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This topic was a start of a lot shitstorms on forums. But here are my few thoughts on this.

 

It was never stated that space marines cannot have sex nor that they can. For me it's a metter of how you see setting. Not that they have much time or interest in this but physically they could at least in my version of 40k. But that would be exceptions because they are mostly warrior monks in space fantasy. However not every monk lives in celibate. I could elaborate on topic more if my english was better :D

 

As for CSM a think it's a free for all. You can have female CSM, CSM who likes sex and they celebrate slannesh by ****** everyone, CSM who have tentacles and such.

 

My knowledge of fluff come mostly from various novels. In ciaphas cain novels there is a sister of battle that have a romantic relationship with one of schola tutors but ciaphas cain novels differ from others since they are mix of dark comedy and 40k so it depends on individual people to treat is as canon or not.

In some other novels space marines there are various portrayal of space marines in some they are emotionless killer machines while in other they are more emotional. From what I remeber in one of horus heresy books a remembrancer comments that Garviel Loken was bigger than most humans and "every" part was bigger so again depends on how you treat novels. As part of canon or not.

 

Another thing why this topic is a mystery is that most of these novels are not written for adults so sex topic are not touched. And it's not relevant to tabletop. At least for most people (i would like to know if my space marines beside killing machines are also a sex machines or not :D)

 

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Yes, indeed - it all comes down to how gritty/dark/human/lighthearted you'd like "your" 40k to be. Romantic attachments or sexual relief may be human ... but that is precisely the reason for why *I* believe they are unsuitable for either Marines or Sororitas (or suitable for CSM who wish to embrace the humanity that they have been denied by the Emperor).

 

If you want humans, I believe you'd be better off with the Imperial Guard. Marines and Sisters are extremes who have deliberately cast off large parts of what makes them humans; they are in fact de-humanised.

 

But: lack of canon means a lack of "truth" on this; the only thing we should keep in mind is that such details would affect how the members of an organisation, and thus the organisation itself, would operate in the larger picture too, and how such traits could change their theme and style (particularly in the case of Sisters or Black Templar Marines, re. chastity = purity).

Edited by Lynata

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You just had to go there, didn'tcha. :D

 

On a sidenote: Huh. With 40k's new level of greebling and useless ornamentation, that mini could easily qualify as a Space Marine. Very powerarmourish.

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On a sidenote: Huh. With 40k's new level of greebling and useless ornamentation, that mini could easily qualify as a Space Marine. Very powerarmourish.

 

That's exactly what they are... Space Marines without the space. 

 

After justifying the removal of Squats with 'wanting to create more of a distinction between the two lines', they proceeded to...

1) Make Necrons look far more like Tomb Kings than they did previously. 

2) Add not-space Space Marines to the Fantasy line. 

Edited by Vorzakk

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On a sidenote: Huh. With 40k's new level of greebling and useless ornamentation, that mini could easily qualify as a Space Marine. Very powerarmourish.

 

That's exactly what they are... Space Marines without the space. 

 

After justifying the removal of Squats with 'wanting to create more of a distinction between the two lines', they proceeded to...

1) Make Necrons look far more like Tomb Kings than they did previously. 

2) Add not-space Space Marines to the Fantasy line. 

 

 

3) Added dark eldar elves to 40K

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3) Added dark eldar elves to 40K

 

Oh, were they also post-Squat-removal?  That was before I got involved.  

 

 

Oh, I just had a terrible thought...  if Ulric is still around in some fashion in Fantasy, I bet there's going to be not-space Space Wolves too.  

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DE came post-squat, yes. According to the squat codex writers, they apparently had no idea how to make space dwarves "serious and unique" and instead opted to replace them with drow knock-offs. Paraphrasing what I read in an interview, but it's almost word for word...

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Yup.

 

Oh boy. I think he was omnomnomed by the chaos gods/warp but so was suposedly everybody else...

 

Grumble grumble, **** Sigmar, how did he get so powerfull all of sudden anyway?

 

I wonder what the Elves are gonna look like...

I must admit i liked the idea of them turning all rage zombie because of Khaine.

 

Worst case scenario:

 

Sigmar & Kaldor Draigo fighting back to back. (I swear if that happens...)

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Yes, Jervis posted the explanation in the Epic Armageddon forum; here is a backup for anyone interested in reading the original. Just scroll down a bit.

 

For what it's worth, back then at least you could still talk to them. Then again, given the nature of the internet, I can't exactly blame them for withdrawing from the public eye either.

Edited by Lynata

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Well, personally, I get where they're coming from in terms of simply having a creative blank. It happens. Especially when expectations and pressure to meet them increase. I still think that it rings a bit hollow, given what replaced the squats was the DEldar, but those are two seperate issues in the end. On the one hand, I can understand and symphasise with their personal perspective, on the other, I'm perfectly within my rights to find what came after the squats superfluous and trite.

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