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Do you have questions about attacking, defense tokens and critical hits? READ THIS FIRST

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Well, you are right for certain things. Redirects and Braces are declare and resolve. You still only resolve 1 thing at a time though.

Take Engine Techs and Demolisher. You still resolve one of them before going on to the effect of the next. You move, then do Demolisher, then Engine techs. Or Engine Techs then Demolisher.

Repair Token and Squadron tokens are also done one at a time.

As far as I can tell, when you have multiple things resolving in the same timing area you finish one before declaring the next action. As long as you don't move beyond that timing slot it should be fine.

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But the effects don't have the same timing.  In fact, that's the core of the issue.  One has an immediate timing, the others have a resolution timing afterwards.  

"Spend one or more of their defense tokens..."

vs

"Spend a Token, decide if you wish to spend more."

The First encourages risk-taking, I guess...  There is a chance - a small chance - that you wouldn't need it after its declared, I guess...  But most of the time, if you think you need it, you're spending it.

Edited by Drasnighta

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When spending a token you are declaring it like you say bit it is not on a stack. It is on a pre-defined resolution. That means when compared to other things such as commands they really the only things that are currently delayed like so.

Evades on the other hand resolve right away when compared to other defense tokens.

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The timing of the spending is the same. What happens when you spend them is very different.

Redirect: The defender choses a hullzone. The rest of the text tells us what to do in a later stage.

Evade: Reroll or cancel (depending on range) one of the attack dice.

Brace: Nothing. It just instructs you to do things at a later stage.

Scatter: Cancel all attack dice.

 

So all defence tokens have the same timing for when they are resolved. Redirect and brace just happen to create instructions for later stages during their resolutions.

 

So the timing is not a problem. How ever, I agrea that "The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens." is not crystal clear as to the question of if you have to declare all you are going to use befor you resolve them in what ever order you want.

 

That said, I would be inclined to think you are indeed allowed to spend a defence token and after it's resolution decide if you want to spend an other one.

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Everything about the rules for defence tokens seems like they are spent one at a time to produce their effects. I think if you had to declare all your token spends before discovering effects it would specify that as that seems like a more complicated interpretation.

However there doesn't appear to be a 'definitive' answer in the rules.

I've emailed FFG.

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I may be confused now.

We know that Brace occurs when damage is totaled bust exhausted/spent in the defense token phase of the attack. We know Redirect moves a declared amount of damage in the deal damage phase. The amount is decided when the token is exhausted/spent (which is a question. . . How is the redirect supposed to know how many points can be redirected if damage has yet to be totaled? Hmmmm)

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You are correct Redirect moves damage when it is dealt, but the way it reads, when you spend the token you choose the hull zone, then you do everything else later in the attack when actually applying damage.

Edited by DWRR

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I may be confused now.

We know that Brace occurs when damage is totaled bust exhausted/spent in the defense token phase of the attack. We know Redirect moves a declared amount of damage in the deal damage phase. The amount is decided when the token is exhausted/spent (which is a question. . . How is the redirect supposed to know how many points can be redirected if damage has yet to be totaled? Hmmmm)

 

So, it is an open question when the defending player gets to decide the specifics of the Redirect?

 

The rule states:

"4 . Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens."

 

That can mean as much as 'determine the hull zone and amount to be redirected', and as little as 'declare that you're going to do it, and work out the details in the resolve phase.

 

According to the OP (DWRR with amendments suggested by Thraug), the clause: "Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time." means that the defender can choose to redirect each point separately in the resolve damage step.

 

So, two questions:

  1. when does the decision towards which direction to redirect get made?
  2. when does the decision how many points to redirect get made?

DWRR/Thraug seem to suggest that the decision to redirect gets made in step 4, but that the decisions about direction in which the damage is redirected is made with the first point to be redirected, and the decision of how many is decided when the last point is applied.

 

I know that Lyraeus, as he explained it to me yesterday, believes that both the direction and the amount gets decided in step 4 (Spend Defense Tokens).

 

This is a relevant question in regard to Assault Concussion Missiles, because the decision on using ACMs or not happens in step 5 (Resolve Damage).

 

In Lyraeus' interpretation, the defender - not knowing if ACMs are going to be used or not - has to guess what the attacker is going to use ACMs or standard damage.

 

Let's say the defending hull zone has 3 shields, and each adjacent hull zone has 1 shield. The attack yields 4 damage, including a critical effect.

 

If the attacker is going to use ACMs, then it's in the interest of the defender to not redirect any damage to either side, because while it will mean the loss of all shields and a single damage card, at least that single damage card is face down.

 

If the attacker is going to choose the standard critical effect, then the defender does have an interest in redirecting damage to one side, because that avoids a face-up card.

 

But if the defender chooses to redirect X damage (where X>0) to an adjacent side, then the attacker has the choice of choosing the critical effect that defender did not account for. So, in reality, the defender really has no meaningful decision. The attacker has the meaningful decision.

 

If, on the other hand, we use DWRR/Thraug's interpretation, then the defender might opt to redirect 0 damage (while still having spent the redirect token just in case), and so avoid the face-up damage card.

 

 

Does all that make sense?

 

 

I think I prefer DWRR/Thraug's interpretation, because it gives the defender choices over the redirect, rather than rendering it potentially meaningless. Also, under the Redirect heading under Defense Tokens on pg. 4 RRG, it mentions the timing of the redirect as "When the defender suffers damage from this attack". This clause seems to imply that it occurs during the resolve damage step, and because the damage is dealt out piecemeal according to the "one point at a time" clause under the resolve-damage step.

 

However, I am unsure when the rules say when the direction is to be chosen. I would suppose that it gets decided when the first point to be redirected is redirected.

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Taking the rules for redirect at face value you do things in the order they are written.

1. Declare spending the Redirect token.

2. Choose the defending Hull Zone.

3. "When the defender suffers damage from this attack it may suffer any amount on the chosen zones shields"

That seems pretty clear to me, you don't choose an amount until you suffer the damage. And you can redirect any amount, up toothy zone's shields. The cap on how many hits you redirect is simply the shields on that zone when you start taking damage.

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Taking the rules for redirect at face value you do things in the order they are written.

1. Declare spending the Redirect token.

2. Choose the defending Hull Zone.

3. "When the defender suffers damage from this attack it may suffer any amount on the chosen zones shields"

That seems pretty clear to me, you don't choose an amount until you suffer the damage. And you can redirect any amount, up toothy zone's shields. The cap on how many hits you redirect is simply the shields on that zone when you start taking damage.

 

So, in relation to what other events (the start of step 5 and the choice of the critical effect) does your second point happen?

 

I take it that it happens before step 5.

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From Effects and Timing

•A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Since Redirects second sentence starts with "When", you choose at the time of damage

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From Effects and Timing

•A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

Since Redirects second sentence starts with "When", you choose at the time of damage

 

 

Exactly, when spending your defence token you choose the hull zone.

 

THEN "when dealing damage" you resolve the rest.

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