Rebel Captive Shenannigans

[GML 124]

And if it is a newer player that doesn't know that Rebel Captive exists?  You expect them to constantly remind their opponent to apply their effects?  That is why people are for having the "your card, your responsibility" attitude.  You don't know the experience level of your opponent, and they may not be familiar with your cards.  So to make sure that everyone is aware of what is going on, it really is the responsibility of the player with the card to ensure the rules for their cards are followed.

Edited July 7, 2015 by GML

[Stoneface 3,750]

Buhallin,

Evidently I can't multi-quote from this device so bare with me.

In your response to me at 3:42 AM you mention mandatory effects and "forgetting" or not being bothered to know what affects the game. You didn't mention the 3rd possibility; people just plain forgetting. We're dealing with people who deal with stress in different ways. People screw up, plain and simple and you're always going to have those that game the system. Checkout Dracon Prothayan's Nope Button as an example. The maneuver is legal and by the rules.

In another post you differentiate between the mandatory effect of Rebel Captive and the optional Lone Wolfe but you missed the point entirely. That is both abilities were forgotten. Pure and simple. If you forget you forget, period. You can't flog someone for a mental lapse. You might get the TO to declare them PNG and have them escorted away. That does seem a little extreme though. As an aside, both of those abilities were fielded by my opponent.

You also don't buy into the statement of being distracted. I don't know what your competition experience is, mine is one store tourney with 6 players. I found it mildly distracting with people walking around, staring over my shoulder etc.. There are some excellent but esoteric articles written regarding learning, attention and distractions.

You also berate people for not knowing the cards. If you started with X-wing in 2012 when it was released and played a lot I can see remembering the cards, dials and stats. Starting off with core set, minimal ships and cards an 2 releases per year with a lot of game play I can see remembering by shear repetition. But for us noobs who joined up late in the game it's a little different.

Take just the X-wing for example. There are ten pilots, 8 unique and the top 4 can take an EPT of which there are 22. Each ship can take a mech (12), a torpedo (4) and a modification (9). The unique pilots also have an ability in addition to half being able to take an EPT as mentioned before. So to know what each pilot can do, how each ship moves, how each secondary weapon is primed and fired and the effects of all the upgrade cards might be asking too much. I'm sure some number cruncher can come up with the exact number of possible combinations. With just 10 pilots I think there are 210 combos. If you add an additional 4 rookie and 4 red squadron that number jumps to 3060. This was based on a 4 ship squad and since my math is pretty rusty I wouldn't bet on these exact numbers. The number of pilots I used came from 3 core set, the X-wing expansion and rebel transport.

Finally, I see this thread is going to accomplish the same thing as the chicken vs egg argument does; not much. There are two sides to this debate and no middle ground.

[Stoneface 3,750]

If I have an ability that affects my opponent's attack I'm going to try and remember to use it and worry less if he remembers to roll an additional green for an obstructed attack. At what point do you stop worrying whether your opponent knows what he's flying and play the game, by the rules?

If there are mandatory effects on the board and you're ignoring them, then you're not playing by the rules.  That's true whether you're intentionally "forgetting" the effect, or whether you just can't be bothered to know what's affecting the game.

 

X-wing's does not have a "your card, your responsibility" rule.  Nobody has cited one - Tezzas invented one and declared it the default, but does so without any actual support, as is his usual style.

 

I think it's simpler - if there's something in the game which affects your ship, it's your responsibility to remember it, and if there are mandatory effects it's the responsibility of both players to ensure they're carried out..  I've pointed out repeatedly that there's nothing to distinguish Rebel Captive's stress from a debris field.  Has anyone provided rules that say otherwise?  Rebel Captive does not actually affect the owner - it affects the opponent.  There is no declaration, no activation, it just happens.  It's no more an "opportunity" than flying over an obstacle.

Regarding debris fields and rebel captive. You can see a debris field.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

So we all agree that the OP described a "missed opportunity" and that the game should continue.

Awesome.

Taking everything the OP said at face value and in THAT particular circumstance I do believe that most of us will go with it as a "missed opportunity" however we are further discussing why it is and why it is should NOT have happened in the first place.

Awesome.  So we all agree that it was a "missed opportunity" and play continues.

Stating that it "should NOT have happened in the first place" is unrealistic.

 

Players FORGET things during tournaments.  It happens.  FFG have printed the procedure to follow when players forget things.  Apply the missed opportunity ruling and move along.

I'm done with this thread, it was solved on Page 1.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

Regarding debris fields and rebel captive. You can see a debris field.

 

 

You should also be able to see the Rebel Captive although it may not occupy such a prominent spot on the board.

 

This may be getting into how a player sets out their cards because an opponent should be able to see all of a player's cards.  Putting them into nice stacks, even if offset, may mean they take up less space but they can confuse players by "hiding" important information.  This may be unrelated to the discussion but how many times have you seen someone shoot at a ship with a Rebel Captive aboard then complain because the upgrade card isn't being displayed clearly enough?

[GML 124]

 

 

Regarding debris fields and rebel captive. You can see a debris field.

 

 

You should also be able to see the Rebel Captive although it may not occupy such a prominent spot on the board.

 

This may be getting into how a player sets out their cards because an opponent should be able to see all of a player's cards.  Putting them into nice stacks, even if offset, may mean they take up less space but they can confuse players by "hiding" important information.  This may be unrelated to the discussion but how many times have you seen someone shoot at a ship with a Rebel Captive aboard then complain because the upgrade card isn't being displayed clearly enough?

 

How well can you read cards that are 4' away and upside down to your perspective?

[StevenO 2,996]

It used to be well enough that I could cheat off of stuff sitting on the teachers desk when taking spelling tests.

[GML 124]

uh... huh...

[Parravon 5,217]

I'm more amused by the line of reasoning that you have to know what's in your opponent's squad or that it's open information because it's on the table. I have enough trouble remembering my own squad sometimes, and my eyesight isn't that great that I can read what's on the other side of the table! I've played this game for a couple of years now, and a lot of the time when my opponent says I'm going to use the X card, I often have to ask "what does that do again?" And it doesn't just apply to upgrades, I'm just as forgetful with the pilot abilities too. There's nearly 100 unique pilots and over 150 upgrade cards. Can I remember them all? - hell no!

 

Not all of us are instilled with a photographic memory, and by stating the effect of a card is 'mandatory', still doesn't change the fact the if my opponent fails to mention it the first time it triggers, how the blazes am I expected to remember he's got it? I don't go into a game and ask where the Rebel Captive is, just in case there is one.

[Buhallin 4,563]

And if it is a newer player that doesn't know that Rebel Captive exists?  You expect them to constantly remind their opponent to apply their effects?  That is why people are for having the "your card, your responsibility" attitude.  You don't know the experience level of your opponent, and they may not be familiar with your cards.  So to make sure that everyone is aware of what is going on, it really is the responsibility of the player with the card to ensure the rules for their cards are followed.

I believe I've stated, repeatedly, that it's the responsibility of both players to ensure that mandatory game effects are carried out.  I have to make sure that extra green die gets rolled at Range 3 whether I'm the attacker or defender.  I help ensure the damage check is rolled when someone hits an obstacle whether it's me or my opponent, and I expect the same.

 

How does this not apply to anything in the game?  I've played people in tournaments who've had exactly 10 minutes of instruction.  They really can't be expected to remember range modifiers, or stress for red maneuvers, or, well, anything, right?  How is that any different?  What happens with debris fields?  They only came around in Wave 5, and the rules for them are only in the FAQ and Wave 5 ships.  How is some poor, helpless player possibly going to remember what they do??

 

And what happens if we turn it around?  What if the new player barely knows their own cards?  If they're forgetting Greedo (a mandatory effect) when you attack them, do you remind them of that?  Do you remind them of the mandatory Rebel Captive when you attack their ship, or only when they attack yours?

 

Because if "your card, your responsibility" applies, then if your opponent forgets to apply Greedo's effect when you attack him, it's not up to you to remind him, right?  Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that you wouldn't point it out to your opponent there?  I don't know a player that wouldn't point that one out.

 

In your response to me at 3:42 AM you mention mandatory effects and "forgetting" or not being bothered to know what affects the game. You didn't mention the 3rd possibility; people just plain forgetting.

I actually have mentioned that - repeatedly.  But let's do it one more time, because for those who object to having to take the time to see what your opponent has at the start of the game, going back to page 1 of a thread is absolute murder.

 

Yes, things will be forgotten during the game.  If they're optional effects which a player had the choice to activate but forgot to do so, then it's a missed opportunity, and entirely up to the opponent whether to allow it or not.  If it's a mandatory effect, it's not an "opportunity", and both players are equally at fault.  You fix it at best you can at that point, without disrupting the game state.  That will depend heavily on what was missed, and the current game state.  If you realize halfway through combat that you forgot Rebel Captive, drop the stress.  If you realize it halfway through the next turn's activation (as in the OP's case) then it's too late, because it would corrupt the game state.

 

I really don't see why that's so hard, or so unfair.  I'm not trying to screw the new guy here.  I think the primary responsibility lies with the player whose ship is affected, but as I've said repeatedly both players have a responsibility to ensure mandatory effects are carried out, and that holds regardless of who owns the card in question or who would benefit from the ability.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 

 

Regarding debris fields and rebel captive. You can see a debris field.

 

 

You should also be able to see the Rebel Captive although it may not occupy such a prominent spot on the board.

 

This may be getting into how a player sets out their cards because an opponent should be able to see all of a player's cards.  Putting them into nice stacks, even if offset, may mean they take up less space but they can confuse players by "hiding" important information.  This may be unrelated to the discussion but how many times have you seen someone shoot at a ship with a Rebel Captive aboard then complain because the upgrade card isn't being displayed clearly enough?

 

How well can you read cards that are 4' away and upside down to your perspective?

 

Seriously, do you not take a minute at the beginning of a game, especially in a tournament, especially if your opponent is running things you might not have seen before, to ask your opponent for his cards and read them?

[DR4CO 6,234]

I'm more amused by the line of reasoning that you have to know what's in your opponent's squad or that it's open information because it's on the table. I have enough trouble remembering my own squad sometimes, and my eyesight isn't that great that I can read what's on the other side of the table! I've played this game for a couple of years now, and a lot of the time when my opponent says I'm going to use the X card, I often have to ask "what does that do again?" And it doesn't just apply to upgrades, I'm just as forgetful with the pilot abilities too. There's nearly 100 unique pilots and over 150 upgrade cards. Can I remember them all? - hell no!

 

Not all of us are instilled with a photographic memory, and by stating the effect of a card is 'mandatory', still doesn't change the fact the if my opponent fails to mention it the first time it triggers, how the blazes am I expected to remember he's got it?

 

So ask the other guy! I promise you, he (or she) will not mind having to hand over the card or read it out for you as many times as need be.

 

I mean, really, people. Yes, mistakes are going to happen, but you could at least make an effort to avoid them. The amount of you who seem to want nothing more than to wash your hands of any responsibility for the game is appalling.

Edited July 7, 2015 by DR4CO

[Pogie 113]

I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if this point has been brought up. The affect of RC is not to "become stressed" but to receive a stress token. With no stress token the ship is not stressed so revealing a red maneuver is not a problem. The ship must have a stress token to be considered stressed. If that is missed, oh well.

[Bilisknir 443]

I forget things all the time. In competitive games I forget the opponent has Hot-Shot Blasters on a Z-95, or that a given Y-wing has the title so can't use the turret. Mistakes happen. People forget things. Assuming perfection is a road to an early death. As such there are procedures to follow if something that should have been done and wasn't. These are the missed opportunities rules.

 

I am generally quite happy to relax said rules a bit. Forget to drop stress from Rebel Captive till the end of the combat phase? Ok, it happens, dump it on. Forget to drop stress after PtL, but remember during combat phase? I'll drop it on myself. Forget to cloak after attacking with ACD, it depends, have I fired at you at you on the next attack - then sure cloak away, beginning of the next activation phase - no way man.

 

I will also normally remind my opponent of any effects he has available to him. At least the first few times. If I remind him about effects that are a choice (say cloaking with ACD) a couple of times and he still forgets them, then I'll stop asking. I'm not there to play the game for him. 

[ScottieATF 2,867]

So we all agree that the OP described a "missed opportunity" and that the game should continue.

Awesome.

Taking everything the OP said at face value and in THAT particular circumstance I do believe that most of us will go with it as a "missed opportunity" however we are further discussing why it is and why it is should NOT have happened in the first place.

Awesome. So we all agree that it was a "missed opportunity" and play continues.

Stating that it "should NOT have happened in the first place" is unrealistic.

Players FORGET things during tournaments. It happens. FFG have printed the procedure to follow when players forget things. Apply the missed opportunity ruling and move along.

I'm done with this thread, it was solved on Page 1.

And by just applying the missed opportunity rule and moving along you are cultivating an atmosphere in which there are absolutely no ramifications for playing outside the rules or allowing rules to be misplayed or forgotten.

I completely agree that once you moved past the point in which you can rectify the game state with out causing undue influence to the game, you have to simply play it as it lies. But regardless or if you can or can not rectify the gamestate you need to issue a real warning to the players that allowed the game rules to be broken. Additionally you have to follow up those warnings with real consequences if players do not adjust thier play to ensure the rules are being followed.

We are talking about a very abuseable situation here. It is very easy for someone to purposefully misplay a rule only to claim it was a mistake if caught. And while you don't want to operate under the assumption that every mistake is someone attempting to cheat, you absolutely do need to provide ramifications for repeatedly violating or allowing rules to be violated. If a player establishes a pattern of not following the rules, whether it purposeful cheating or just plain inattentiveness, they there need to be penalties to correct that behavior.

Edited July 7, 2015 by ScottieATF

[GML 124]

 

 

 

 

Regarding debris fields and rebel captive. You can see a debris field.

 

 

You should also be able to see the Rebel Captive although it may not occupy such a prominent spot on the board.

 

This may be getting into how a player sets out their cards because an opponent should be able to see all of a player's cards.  Putting them into nice stacks, even if offset, may mean they take up less space but they can confuse players by "hiding" important information.  This may be unrelated to the discussion but how many times have you seen someone shoot at a ship with a Rebel Captive aboard then complain because the upgrade card isn't being displayed clearly enough?

 

How well can you read cards that are 4' away and upside down to your perspective?

 

Seriously, do you not take a minute at the beginning of a game, especially in a tournament, especially if your opponent is running things you might not have seen before, to ask your opponent for his cards and read them?

 

You really aren't getting it, are you?  Let me see if I can make this as clear as I can...  PEOPLE!!!  FORGET!!!

 

People will forget **** two minutes after you tell them, because until they see the effect in play multiple times, they do not fully understand.  My point about reading cards across a table is that after you read them initially, if you are new to the game and not familiar with what the cards do, you will forget them before they come into effect.  Here, maybe some graphic representation will make this point more clear to you.

 

This is what a new player sees when they come around the table to look at the cards:

As you can see, everything is clear and the wording would be quite legible.  Before the game starts, the new player says they understand.

 

Now, it is three turns into the game, and the new player takes his first shot at Jendon, which his opponent has forgotten has Rebel Captive.  Neither player remembers to put the stress on the attacker, for the new player it is understandable because he is playing against the card for the first time, and his opponents cards now look like this:

Every card is different, the titles are barely legible, and he has no idea what any of them do.

 

This is the exact reason I am arguing that it is not the responsibility of your opponent to remember every effect that you ships have.  You don't know the level of experience they have, they are more likely to actually forget what you have because they only looked at the cards for 20 seconds.  Where as you have had these cards in your collection for who knows how long, you have been carefully considering how to build a list for a tournament, and weighing every option to make the optimal list.  There is little excuse for you to not be responsible.  But you know what, people are still going to forget, it happens.

 

Hell, I have been playing 40k for 16 years, 12 of which have been with the Dark Angels.  I still forget to do stuff at times, including things I have based my entire army around.  Why?  Because I am human, that's why.

 

 

(edit:  Just to add this in here, I played a game tonight where I had Rebel Captive on "Echo" and I forgot about it for the entire game)

 

 

I'm more amused by the line of reasoning that you have to know what's in your opponent's squad or that it's open information because it's on the table. I have enough trouble remembering my own squad sometimes, and my eyesight isn't that great that I can read what's on the other side of the table! I've played this game for a couple of years now, and a lot of the time when my opponent says I'm going to use the X card, I often have to ask "what does that do again?" And it doesn't just apply to upgrades, I'm just as forgetful with the pilot abilities too. There's nearly 100 unique pilots and over 150 upgrade cards. Can I remember them all? - hell no!

 

Not all of us are instilled with a photographic memory, and by stating the effect of a card is 'mandatory', still doesn't change the fact the if my opponent fails to mention it the first time it triggers, how the blazes am I expected to remember he's got it?

 

So ask the other guy! I promise you, he (or she) will not mind having to hand over the card or read it out for you as many times as need be.

 

I mean, really, people. Yes, mistakes are going to happen, but you could at least make an effort to avoid them. The amount of you who seem to want nothing more than to wash your hands of any responsibility for the game is appalling.

 

Do you realize how foolish it sounds to tell people to ask the other guy to see the effects of a card that you forgot he had at the time the effect was missed?  

 

No one is saying that the effort isn't being made to avoid them.  What they are saying is that mistakes are going to happen, and demanding that both players being required to be 100% aware of what their opponent has isn't a realistic expectation.  This game has been out for long enough that there are going to be huge gaps in levels of experience.

Edited July 8, 2015 by GML

[VanorDM 11,599]

What they are saying is that mistakes are going to happen, and demanding that both players being required to be 100% aware of what their opponent has isn't a realistic expectation.

Sorry but that's a bit of a strawman. No one is demanding any such thing. We're all saying however that everyone should make a good faith effort to make sure all the rules are followed, including ones from mandatory effects, wither you own them or not.

Yes people will make mistakes, yes they will forget things. No one is saying that someone should be removed from a tournament over a single mistake.

However that mistake could also be subtle form of cheating, because the person "forgot" a mandatory effect. So it is completely fair that people be given warnings if such a thing becomes an issue with them. Again, this isn't an issue of 1 mistake and you're out, but rather a pattern of behavior, in which a player constantly "forgets" negative effects that should be applied to his ships.

So... If it happens, you address it the best you can without drastically changing the gamestate. If you can't fairly rewind the game you 'play it where it lies'. But if it keeps happening with the same player, then a warning is likely in order.

[Pandademic 425]

You really aren't getting it, are you?  Let me see if I can make this as clear as I can...  PEOPLE!!!  FORGET!!!

 

People will forget **** two minutes after you tell them, because until they see the effect in play multiple times, they do not fully understand.  My point about reading cards across a table is that after you read them initially, if you are new to the game and not familiar with what the cards do, you will forget them before they come into effect.

 

Actually, I think Buhallin does get that:

 

Yes, things will be forgotten during the game.

 

So yes, people will forget things, because they're people. Is taking a stress from Rebel Captive easier to forget than taking a stress from running over a debris token? Yep. But that doesn't make it any less mandatory according to the rules. And when a mandatory effect does get skipped, both players should be thinking, "I need to remember that next time." I think there's a real problem if one player is encouraged to think, "She needs to remember to vocally remind me of what her cards are forcing me to do next time."

 

If you don't want to make an effort to remember that your opponent's Defender is Rexler Brath with Predator and HLC, and factor that information into your approach, then that's your prerogative. But if there's a Rebel Captive on the other side of the table (or Mara Jade, or Dark Curse, or Biggs, or whatever), then that isn't an option for your opponent to declare, that's part of the game state. I'm all for cutting new players some slack with remembering all the rules and card effects. And it's true that a new player can't be relied on to remember what their opponent's cards do. But having consideration for new players and their unfamiliarity with the game shouldn't mean changing the rules. And the philosophy of "your cards, your responsibility" essentially changes the rules so that mandatory effects are the same as optional ones.

 

And to repeat Buhallin, that approach gets less newbie-friendly when the new player is the one bringing the mandatory effects to the table. If they equip Greedo to a ship and keep forgetting to tell me to apply his effect, well, that's not my concern. In fact, it would be quite generous of me to remind them of their card, even if it's just half the time (whenever their ship is defending, coincidentally). Similarly, if I only remind my forgetful opponent of their Rebel Captive when my Keyan has a shot, I can't be faulted for anything, right?

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

No one is saying that the effort isn't being made to avoid them.  What they are saying is that mistakes are going to happen, and demanding that both players being required to be 100% aware of what their opponent has isn't a realistic expectation.  This game has been out for long enough that there are going to be huge gaps in levels of experience.

 

I feel like you've started to take this as some sort of insult against new players, a kind of "If you can't remember anything, go home noob and L2P!"  While I do think you should have some basic capability before entering a tournament, that's mostly as a courtesy to keep from disrupting the experience of others.

 

You seem really hung up on this "Expected perfect play" thing, and go on and on about how I expect nobody will forget anything - but I have a (relatively long) post just above the one you quote about how I handle situations where things are forgotten.

 

So yes, things will be forgotten, and we have (even if you ignore it) covered how that should be handled.  And I do completely understand the overload a new player can feel - I'm getting back into Warmachine after like 6 years, you should try the pre-game "I don't know what your army does" on THAT one.

 

But that doesn't actually change the burden of responsibility from a rules perspective.  I really, truly do understand everything you're saying.  I just don't think it becomes a Get Out of Jail Free card (because Rebel Captive, get it? )  Yes, new players may often forget Rebel Captive is there.  But there is no rule that puts the responsibility for that solely on the owner.  You might wish there were, that you'd only ever have to worry about your own cards...  but there's not.

 

And that goes to the other side of what I think you're saying, which is that newer players deserve some sort of special dispensation because they're new... that sure, it might be both players' responsibility to ensure mandatory effects are used, but you're new and I've got a Rebel Captive so now it's entirely my responsibility, and my "opportunity" if it gets missed.  I can sympathize with that view, but you're basically arguing a rules handicap to be granted to a new player.  X-wing has a great community, and I've rarely met people who rejoice in smashing a new player... but that's not in the rules, and it should be left to the players in question as generosity, not changing the rules for what is actually expected.

 

Finally, several of us have repeatedly pointed out, you're looking at this only from the side facing Rebel Captive.  If you're a new player using it, then I have to apply that effect whether you remember to or not.  This actually PROTECTS new players in these situations - if some WAAC jerk wants to beat you down, he can't let you forget your Rebel Captive the entire game, because it's a mandatory effect.  He might let you forget every action, forget to spend every token, but when he shoots at your Rebel Captive, he's required to take the stress.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

...demanding that both players being required to be 100% aware of what their opponent has isn't a realistic expectation.

I feel like you're arguing against nearly the opposite of the point Buhallin, Pandademic, and others are making.

Because you're right: requiring my opponent to be "100% aware" of my cards isn't reasonable. Requiring my opponent to remember, with every attack, that he or she is supposed to take a stress from my Rebel Captive is prone to failure. Always requiring me to remember which of my cards affect my opponent is also somewhat unreliable, although you'd expect the person running the list to get it right more often than the person seeing it the first time.

But that's exactly why it's the responsibility of both players to keep track of mandatory effects like Rebel Captive. If Player A is required to keep track of every effect in a particular set, then regardless of what rule you use to determine the contents of that set, you're setting that player up for accidental failure and possibly intentional abuse.

If both players are responsible for remembering there's a Rebel Captive on the table, though, then it's not as big a deal if one of them forgets. Typically one player will be more familiar with an effect, and typically one player will be affected more often (or even exclusively), but if you work together to make sure the game is run according to the rules, there's a much better chance the rules will be followed.

[IndyPendant 434]

Incoming Straw Man argument!

 

Rolling defense dice is not optional.  My opponent fires at range three, at my fully loaded Corran.  I roll three defense dice, get two evades.  One damage gets through, enough to kill my badly-damaged Corran.  New round!  I set the dial for my single remaining shieldless B-WIng, he moves in for the kill.

 

But wait!  I should have rolled one more defense die earlier!  It's not an option, I can't choose not to, and it's HIS responsibility as much as my own to remind me of the rules!  So I get to retroactively roll that additional die, and I get an evade.  Corran lives.  I put him back in the fight, select a green maneuver that just happens to put him out of the arc of the opponent's revealed move, now with one hull and a regenerated shield (because R2-D2, of course).  I double-tap his ship at Range 1, oddly enough not forgetting my additional die this time.

 

Win for me!

 

I *like* this idea!  (But only if I'm on the beneficial side of it, please. ; )

[Stronghammer 195]

^{Incoming Straw Man argument!}

 

^{Rolling defense dice is not optional.  My opponent fires at range three, at my fully loaded Corran.  I roll three defense dice, get two evades.  One damage gets through, enough to kill my badly-damaged Corran.  New round!  I set the dial for my single remaining shieldless B-WIng, he moves in for the kill.}

 

^{But wait!  I should have rolled one more defense die earlier!  It's not an option, I can't choose not to, and it's HIS responsibility as much as my own to remind me of the rules!  So I get to retroactively roll that additional die, and I get an evade.  Corran lives.  I put him back in the fight, select a green maneuver that just happens to put him out of the arc of the opponent's revealed move, now with one hull and a regenerated shield (because R2-D2, of course).  I double-tap his ship at Range 1, oddly enough not forgetting my additional die this time.}

 

^{Win for me!}

 

^{I *like* this idea!  (But only if I'm on the beneficial side of it, please. ; )}

 

^{would you be happy to play that in reverse?}

 

^{opponent only rolled 3 attack dice and didn't kill you, rolls another which is a hit and would kill you. are you prepared to remove your ship now?}

 

 

^{I think this has been debated to pieces now, and I hope we can leave it sleeping with the fishes, where it belongs.}

[StevenO 2,996]

 

^{Incoming Straw Man argument!}

 

^{Rolling defense dice is not optional.  My opponent fires at range three, at my fully loaded Corran.  I roll three defense dice, get two evades.  One damage gets through, enough to kill my badly-damaged Corran.  New round!  I set the dial for my single remaining shieldless B-WIng, he moves in for the kill.}

 

^{But wait!  I should have rolled one more defense die earlier!  It's not an option, I can't choose not to, and it's HIS responsibility as much as my own to remind me of the rules!  So I get to retroactively roll that additional die, and I get an evade.  Corran lives.  I put him back in the fight, select a green maneuver that just happens to put him out of the arc of the opponent's revealed move, now with one hull and a regenerated shield (because R2-D2, of course).  I double-tap his ship at Range 1, oddly enough not forgetting my additional die this time.}

 

^{would you be happy to play that in reverse?}

 

^{opponent only rolled 3 attack dice and didn't kill you, rolls another which is a hit and would kill you. are you prepared to remove your ship now?}

 

^{I think this has been debated to pieces now, and I hope we can leave it sleeping with the fishes, where it belongs.}

 

 

I sure want to believe there was a good dose of sarcasm IndyPendants post.  Although why kick a hornets nest that has been quiet for a week especially when it is touching on several things brought up even more recently?

[IndyPendant 434]

Yeah, my apologies on the timing: I hadn't noticed the last post was almost a week ago.  I've been absent for a while due to absurdly busy work.  There was a lot of sarcasm fully intended in my post; I'm hoping it's clear which side of the line I land on.

 

The irony is even stronger in that the only other recent post I have made...poked fun at someone else for necroing another thread.  *sigh*  At least that thread had been dormant much longer...

 

I'll just sit over here until my mild bout of embarrassment subsides...; )