Rebel Captive Shenannigans

[StephenEsven 632]

The one thing a player at a tournament venue can not be familiar with is his opponents list. While it is visible on the table he probably does not recall every single upgrade the enemy brought. Or he might not be familiar with the cards effect. The owning player does know. He brought the card to affect the state of the game. And even though every player might strive to do everything perfect, it might slip. This goes for both players. If possible you could correct the state of the game if discovered in time. I think everyone would accept that as long as the state change has not had an effect yet. But at some point we must accept that it is too late to correct the mistake.

[VanorDM 11,599]

As an unofficial rule of thumb for myself... The person most responsible for making sure an effect takes place is the one who gains an advantage from it.

So if I'm attacking with Wedge, I should remind the other person to roll one less die. If I'm attacking a ship with Rebel Captive on it it, the other guy needs to make sure I take the stress.

Again that's not in the rules, just how I play it. Which isn't to say I think I have no responsibility in keeping track of things, both players do.

Edited July 1, 2015 by VanorDM

[DR4CO 6,234]

The one thing a player at a tournament venue can not be familiar with is his opponents list.

 

Yes, he **** well can! The information is open, public, and any player worth his salt will peruse his opponent's list before the game starts, especially at a tournament. There is no excuse to forget a mandatory card effect, whichever side of the table it is on.

Edited July 1, 2015 by DR4CO

[VanorDM 11,599]

There is no excuse to forget a mandatory card effect, whichever side of the table it is on.

I think everyone would agree to that. But we also all have to agree that mistakes will happen, and both players will forget things. The only question is, what to do when that happens.

[Rinehart 684]

 

The one thing a player at a tournament venue can not be familiar with is his opponents list.

 

Yes, he **** well can! The information is open, public, and any player worth his salt will peruse his opponent's list before the game starts, especially at a tournament. There is no excuse to forget a mandatory card effect, whichever side of the table it is on.

 

 

That's all well and good, but people aren't perfect, and effects are forgotten.  If you demand that both players are perfect in their execution of the rules, you will be regularly frustrated and disappointed.  This discussion should be about how to handle a forgotten about mandatory effect, not about heavy handed enforcement of those mandatory effects.  Reality is that they will be missed and when they are missed, how are they treated.  Treating them as a missed opportunity seems to be the only rational way, you can't possible roll the game back and retroactively enforce something, that would be breaking the rules a second time.

 

It is a shame that Rebel Captive can't be FAQ'd to change it to a may effect.  It can't simply because in some cases it's beneficial to the player shooting at the Rebel Captive (Farlander and Ibitsam).  If it's a may, the owner of the Rebel Captive will refuse to put the stress on his opponent if it benefits his opponent.  That may make the situation worse.  It would be nice if FFG would FAQ Rebel Captive to be a missed opportunity if the stress is not immediately applied.

Here is a good example, we had an event, Fel shot at Whisper who had Rebel Captive.  Fel rolled all focus results, Whisper with 2 hull left rolled all blanks.  This was a simultaneous firing situation, so Fel died and Whisper lived.  It was a giant swing in the game.  A few attacks later, the Fel player realized that he didn't take the stress from Whisper's Rebel Captive.  Had he taken the stress, he would have received a focus to use on his attack and would have killed Whisper.  At that point can the Fel player demand that Whisper be removed from the game?  Of course not, Fel missed his opportunity to get his focus from the stress, that was never added.  In that situation the Rebel Captive was beneficial to Fel.  While it was both players responsibility to make sure Fel took the stress, in the real world Fel is the player that needs to make sure it happens.  Fel died, Whisper survived and the game went on.  Everyone at the event agreed that was the correct way to handle the situation.

[Buhallin 4,563]

The problem here is that a lot of people are saying "It's not my card, so I don't have to remember it."  Except that's not the case at all.  Rebel Captive is MANDATORY.  If I see it and don't say anything about it while my opponent forgets, I'm cheating.  The effect comes from an opponent's card, but it's affecting me, and it's just as much my responsibility to catch that as if it were a neutral game effect.

 

I don't like Vanor's "who benefits?" formulation, because it means you're responsible for policing every negative effect your opponent has.  Every red maneuver, every obstacle collision, every use of Greedo.  Which is, incidentally, another place the "Your card, your responsibility" breaks down.  If you don't remember to take Greedo's first attack face up, is it now my responsibility to remind you?  But it's your card, so not my place, right?  Or do you only remember to remind me when it's bad for me, and intentionally not remind me when it's bad for you?

 

I think how to fix something like this when it does happen is a separate issue.  My standard here is "Fix as much as you can without altering the game state or decisions."  That's a very fuzzy line, but it's honestly a fuzzy situation.  If you've only got one ship to attack and it should have been stressed, and we realize it during the next attack, fine.  If we realize it at the end, fine.  If it should have been Jan who got stressed and we missed it and you used her ability, well, dice really can't be rewound.

 

But a mandatory negative effect is not an "opportunity".

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I'm on the side of Buhallin et al. here, I think.

 

(1) It's a mandatory effect, and it's both players' job to police mandatory effects. There are other apportionments of responsibility that look attractive at first glance, but I think they're all open to substantial abuse.

 

(2) Given that both players missed the effect, and that retroactively applying it (as the Imperial player tried to do in the original anecdote) would have substantial consequences, play has to proceed without it. It clearly falls under the "Missed Opportunities" rule at that point.

[Rekkon 541]

I am with Vorpal, Buhallin, et al. for the most part, and I actually had this question, if not exact scenario, come up in my last tournament.  As for how to resolve it, my opinion is to back up and let the Z-95 owner choose a different maneuver.  This is only possible if no enemy ships have already moved or might be otherwise impractical if the owner also has a bunch of Prototype Pilots or something.  The other compromise that came to mind was allowing the K-turn and assigning the forgotten stress to the ship afterward.  I suppose you can make a case for "give me your dial," but that is not a resolution I would pursue.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I don't like Vanor's "who benefits?" formulation, because it means you're responsible for policing every negative effect your opponent has.

I don't think I was that clear then.

It's up to both sides to keep track of effects in the game, positive or negative, and I'd agree that if I noticed a mandatory effect and didn't say anything it would be effectively cheating.

But yes it in a way up to you to police the other guy, if they pull a red maneuver or fly over debris and forget to put a stress on it's in your best interest normally to mention it. Ideally you should be equally willing to point out any positive mandatory effects they may of missed.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I had another thought on the "I can't be expected to keep track of my opponent's stuff!" line of thinking...

 

Does anyone actually play this way?  Or at the very least, does anyone expect that you can play at all well?  Even if we only limit it to opponent's effects that change your stuff directly, does anyone think you won't simply be demolished if your approach to the game is "I can't be bothered to remember what Carnor Jax/Dark Curse/Rebel Captive does!"

 

Because it seems like this only ever comes up in these situations where something mandatory gets missed.

[GML 124]

I think this falls perfectly under the rule of Missed Opportunities, but people need to not focus on the name of the tournament rule and actually on the wording of the rule itself.

 

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.

 

Nothing there says that it only applies if the rule is optional.  It flat out says that if you forget to use an effect at the specified time, you can not retroactively use it without permission.  To me, that implies that, while it is up to both players to remember the card is in play, it is ultimately up the card's owner to be responsible and ensure the effects are applied appropriately.  If both players forgot the stress, he can not demand that his opponent takes the negative effect of doing a red manoeuvre when he wasn't aware that he was stressed.

 

Shame on both for not remembering, but mistakes happen.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

This happened at Regionals - a Premier Rules Tournament.  At NO stage should the situation ever be diced-off to decide who is correct.  The judge should take responsibility and make a decision, even if it is the wrong decision.  That way the same ruling can be applied, all day, without letting the dice gods decide.

 

Can someone please show me where, in the Tournament Rules, it is printed that we must rewind the game state, if a missed card effect has been discovered?  No?  Well, then we don't rewind the game state, unless both players affirm consent.

 

No-one has shown me where the Tournament Rules state that I must be responsible for my opponent's card effects.  The obvious conclusion is that if it's not printed in the Tournament Rules, then I am not responsible for my opponent's card effects.  My opponent is expected to play optimally and remember his card effects.  By default, I will always forget my opponent's card effects.  It's up to him to apply them when they should occur.  He chose his squadron, he knows what he is flying and he knows when his card effects should apply.

 

FFG have printed, in the Tournament Rules, a catch-all situation for when things are forgotten and a player is playing sub-optimally: the Missed Opportunity Rule.

 

The OP has described a missed opportunity.  The FFG Tournament Rules have clear printed instructions to cover this situation.  It's a case of "doing what the Tournament Rules say to do" - apply the missed opportunity rule and move along, nothing to see here.

 

Rebuttals quoting the Tournament Rules would be appreciated.

[Amraam01 154]

I think this falls perfectly under the rule of Missed Opportunities, but people need to not focus on the name of the tournament rule and actually on the wording of the rule itself.

 

 

 

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.

 

Nothing there says that it only applies if the rule is optional.  It flat out says that if you forget to use an effect at the specified time, you can not retroactively use it without permission.  To me, that implies that, while it is up to both players to remember the card is in play, it is ultimately up the card's owner to be responsible and ensure the effects are applied appropriately.  If both players forgot the stress, he can not demand that his opponent takes the negative effect of doing a red manoeuvre when he wasn't aware that he was stressed.

 

Shame on both for not remembering, but mistakes happen.

Yup I would agree that basically covers the issue in official text.

[Amraam01 154]

The problem here is that a lot of people are saying "It's not my card, so I don't have to remember it."  Except that's not the case at all.  Rebel Captive is MANDATORY.  If I see it and don't say anything about it while my opponent forgets, I'm cheating.  The effect comes from an opponent's card, but it's affecting me, and it's just as much my responsibility to catch that as if it were a neutral game effect.

....

I dont believe a single person said that here.  The argument is that you are less likely to remember every opponents upgrades and effect (It is hard enough to remember your own cards- look at all the threads about sportsmanship and reminding the opponent   ); and the bigger burden is on the owner to remember they are enforced- see Wedge example.  

[GML 124]

As much as sportsmanship is vaunted trait to have, there is no incentive with the current tournament set up (as far as I can see).  The tournaments only appear to award the overall battle results, nothing more.  So, if people are aware that you forgot an ability, there is absolutely nothing to prevent them from saying they forgot as well.  Sure, be a good sportsman, but it could cost you the win.  For many, I am sure that is why they will "conveniently" forgot abilities that their opponents have and hope that they fail to trigger it, then not allow them to go back and put the effect into play.

 

Part of the reason why I am partial to most Warhammer tournaments, they are tournaments for the hobby as a whole, not just the game.  So you could have won every game, had a professionally painted army, but if you are a complete ****, you aren't going to win.

[Amraam01 154]

As much as sportsmanship is vaunted trait to have, there is no incentive with the current tournament set up (as far as I can see).  The tournaments only appear to award the overall battle results, nothing more.  So, if people are aware that you forgot an ability, there is absolutely nothing to prevent them from saying they forgot as well.  Sure, be a good sportsman, but it could cost you the win.  For many, I am sure that is why they will "conveniently" forgot abilities that their opponents have and hope that they fail to trigger it, then not allow them to go back and put the effect into play.

 

Part of the reason why I am partial to most Warhammer tournaments, they are tournaments for the hobby as a whole, not just the game.  So you could have won every game, had a professionally painted army, but if you are a complete ****, you aren't going to win.

 

Well, like someone said if you are purposefully letting it be 'forgotten' so you gain an advantage you are cheating.  End of story.  I dont think anyone is discussing how to cheat or intent to cheat but rather how to best resolve the issue assuming everyone is playing fair.  I think everyone seems in agreement that if there is minimal disruption, both players will agree to add on the stress- i.e. end of the round.

 

I suppose in my rounds I really have not run into anyone that must win at all costs as you imply.  

Edited July 3, 2015 by Amraam01

[Parravon 5,217]

I've had the misfortune of playing 'win at all costs' players, and they really tend to suck the fun out of the game. The main reason I play is to have fun. I lose more than I win, but if it was a fun game then victory doesn't matter.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

"Unsportsmanlike Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to

play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling

a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite

combo, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy

or respect, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly

forbidden. The TO, at his sole discretion, may remove players from the

tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct."

Allowing mandatory effects to be forgotten is certainly not playing within the rules. Making absolutely no effort to ensure that you are playing within the rules is absolutely attempting to abuse the rules. That is exactly why you are responsible for ensuring all rules are followed. Just as your opponent is.

In the situation given the stress token should not be retroactively placed on the board as you are too far removed from the effect to do so. Both players should be given a warning for failure to ensure the rules were being upheld. And if a player has already been given a warning for that then thee TO may opt for a game loss.

That isn't rocket science, you are expected to ensure the game is played by the rules

[GML 124]

But how can you prove that someone is wilfully ignoring rules to give them an advantage.  Let's stick with the Rebel Captive discussion for an example.

 

At a tournament, it is near the end of the day and winning the game is very important.  I take a shot at my opponent's ship that has Rebel Captive, and he doesn't mention the card's effect.  I know that the ship has the card, but because he doesn't say anything, I keep quiet.  This happens again the next turn, and again, neither of us mention it.  In the third turn after the activation phase, he points out that we forgot Rebel Captive the past two times.  I claim to have forgotten that the ship had the upgrade because not having the stress has put me in a good position to win the game.

 

As my opponent, prove that I was cheating or playing in an unsportsmanlike way.

 

As much as we all like to think that play like this doesn't happen, it is a sad truth that it does.

[Amraam01 154]

But how can you prove that someone is wilfully ignoring rules to give them an advantage.  Let's stick with the Rebel Captive discussion for an example.

 

At a tournament, it is near the end of the day and winning the game is very important.  I take a shot at my opponent's ship that has Rebel Captive, and he doesn't mention the card's effect.  I know that the ship has the card, but because he doesn't say anything, I keep quiet.  This happens again the next turn, and again, neither of us mention it.  In the third turn after the activation phase, he points out that we forgot Rebel Captive the past two times.  I claim to have forgotten that the ship had the upgrade because not having the stress has put me in a good position to win the game.

 

As my opponent, prove that I was cheating or playing in an unsportsmanlike way.

 

As much as we all like to think that play like this doesn't happen, it is a sad truth that it does.

Yes, but you know you were cheating, you would know your win was tainted.  People who need to cheat usually have self esteem issues and there are a million other ways you can do it during the game anyways with some convenient bumps etc. but ultimately the game, as with most things throughout life, you assume the best out of people.  

Edited July 4, 2015 by Amraam01

[Stronghammer 195]

I find it funny coming from a 40k background that if there was ever an issue with a rule etc you'd always check the rule book.

In x-wing this seems to happen a lot less. I think I've taken the x-wing rule book out once in about a year.

For instance, let's look at the missed opportunity section, Page 6;

missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action.

• If a player forgets to place a maneuver dial next to a ship, but tells his opponent he is ready to begin the round, once play has proceeded to

the first ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), he may no longer place a dial. Instead, when that ship activates, the player’s opponent chooses the maneuver that ship will perform. No actions may be taken before this maneuver, but play proceeds normally after the maneuver has been executed.

• If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time.

I think the first line kind of answers the question.

Though being the nice people we are, if it was noticed and mentioned before dials are set so that the player would have the chance to change to a green move if required, I think most would be okay with it.

[Quarrel 631]

No-one has shown me where the Tournament Rules state that I must be responsible for my opponent's card effects.

...

Rebuttals quoting the Tournament Rules would be appreciated.

This:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them.

"Playing within the rules" means obeying all rules, and it implies knowing them.

Take this instance: Your opponent makes a Range 1 shot at you with an Academy TIE and rolls 2 dice.

You know the shot is Range 1. You know it's with a primary weapon. You know players are not allowed to voluntarily roll fewer attack or defense dice than they're supposed to.

There are three ways this could go:

1. You inform your opponent that he gets another red die and prevent him from making an illegal roll.

2. You let him play wrong under the philosophy that it's purely his responsibility to catch incorrect plays that hurt him.

3. You honestly don't know what a TIE Fighter's Firepower is (and you don't bother to check your opponent's cards or ship base).

#1 is "mature and considerate". #2 isn't. #3 is just silly.

NOTE: I am NOT talking about your opponent forgetting an optional activation. As far as I can tell, those are a matter of personal sportsmanship.

Here's the big "But...": Rebel Captive isn't optional. It's mandatory. If you shoot a ship that's carrying one and you know it's there, the "mature and considerate" clause prohibits you from leaving it up to your opponent to catch.

Two important caveats:

1. I'll grant that an unscrupulous player can indeed feign ignorance in this particular situation and get away with cheating by claiming to have overlooked the Captive when he really didn't. That doesn't mean it isn't cheating. It only means this is a corner case that's hard to police.

2. The Missed Opportunities rule doesn't say anything about governing only optional effects. It sure looks like it applies to missed Rebel Captive stress. If both players honestly don't catch the error, it's too late to go back and give the stress token as soon as the next attack happens.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

But how can you prove that someone is wilfully ignoring rules to give them an advantage.  Let's stick with the Rebel Captive discussion for an example.

 

At a tournament, it is near the end of the day and winning the game is very important.  I take a shot at my opponent's ship that has Rebel Captive, and he doesn't mention the card's effect.  I know that the ship has the card, but because he doesn't say anything, I keep quiet.  This happens again the next turn, and again, neither of us mention it.  In the third turn after the activation phase, he points out that we forgot Rebel Captive the past two times.  I claim to have forgotten that the ship had the upgrade because not having the stress has put me in a good position to win the game.

 

As my opponent, prove that I was cheating or playing in an unsportsmanlike way.

 

As much as we all like to think that play like this doesn't happen, it is a sad truth that it does.

Yes, but you know you were cheating, you would know your win was tainted.  People who need to cheat usually have self esteem issues and there are a million other ways you can do it during the game anyways with some convenient bumps etc. but ultimately the game, as with most things throughout life, you assume the best out of people.

Human nature sadly does not work like that to survive our ancestors had to do anything necessary to survive and that behaviour has not left us that's why so many over eat nature is telling them to take every opportunity to store fat for winter even though we have central heating.

Society says cheating is wrong but nature tells you it's the smart move and survival of the fittest kicks in, they may feel bad later but in the moment you have two competing urges fighting it out and the right one does not always win.

I have friends who are great people but when playing games you have to watch them like a hawk.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Your friends great people status is highly questionable then given there apparent propensity for dishonesty in games.

[GML 124]

 

But how can you prove that someone is wilfully ignoring rules to give them an advantage.  Let's stick with the Rebel Captive discussion for an example.

 

At a tournament, it is near the end of the day and winning the game is very important.  I take a shot at my opponent's ship that has Rebel Captive, and he doesn't mention the card's effect.  I know that the ship has the card, but because he doesn't say anything, I keep quiet.  This happens again the next turn, and again, neither of us mention it.  In the third turn after the activation phase, he points out that we forgot Rebel Captive the past two times.  I claim to have forgotten that the ship had the upgrade because not having the stress has put me in a good position to win the game.

 

As my opponent, prove that I was cheating or playing in an unsportsmanlike way.

 

As much as we all like to think that play like this doesn't happen, it is a sad truth that it does.

Yes, but you know you were cheating, you would know your win was tainted.  People who need to cheat usually have self esteem issues and there are a million other ways you can do it during the game anyways with some convenient bumps etc. but ultimately the game, as with most things throughout life, you assume the best out of people.  

 

My point is, in a system that does not reward sportsmanship, there is no need to consider it and people will play more ruthlessly.  If there is no penalty for playing like a ****, then people are going to do what ever it takes to win as long as you can't prove they are cheating.