Rebel Captive Shenannigans

[Dopey 3]

Interesting situation at a Regional tournament this weekend.

 

I was playing against a Chiraneau/Fel list.  Chirpy had Rebel Captive on him.  One of my Z-95's shoots at Chirpy and neither one of us remembers the Rebel Captive.  Next turn I program a K-Turn and when I reveal it, my opponent says that my ship is stressed for Rebel Captive and that I must give him my dial and let him set my maneuver.  I argue that he forgot to mention the Rebel Captive when it happened and it is now too late.  My opponent argues that Rebel Captive is not a card that must be "remembered" in order to activate.  He argues that it just happens and it is my responsibility to keep track of the fact that my ship is now stressed.  We call over the TO (he was not very well versed in the rules) and he decides that we should just roll for it.  Luckily, the roll went my direction and I was allowed to keep my K-Turn.

 

What do you guys think of this?  Does the player with Rebel Captive have to "remember" and point out that a ship is stressed?  Whose responsibility is it to track stress?

[VanorDM 11,599]

Whose responsibility is it to track stress?

It's up to both players to keep track of things like that. Especially if it's an effect from one players ships that affect another player.

The problem with the argument being made by the other player, is if you had gotten the stress like you were supposed to, you would of most likely not done the K-Turn.

There's only two fair ways to deal with this kind of situation, since both sides forgot. Either you somehow backup the game to the planing phase and reset everything to account for the stress that wasn't there before. Or you treat the stress as an missed opportunity and continue the game without it.

But in neither case should the other guy get the dial. While true, Rebel Captive isn't a optional effect, both sides are responsible to make sure things like that are accounted for.

Edited June 30, 2015 by VanorDM

[StevenO 2,996]

I guess you're not following the "should you remind your opponent of things?" thread.  To me this is a great example of why both sides should pay attention to effects and speak up when triggers happen.

 

Rebel Captive is NOT an optional effect.  In a way that makes you liable for shooting at it because your opponent should not need to remind of you of that despite it being on his ship.  Of course if he noticed right away but was a **** about it and waited until it mattered to bring it up then he is the one at fault here.

 

My thought is that you are BOTH responsible for tracking triggers, especially ones like this that are not optional.  In this case I believe you still should have taken the Stress if it was remembered/noted later in the round.  Waiting until activations are happening in the next round is too late to act on that ability although you are both guilty of sloppy play.

[Buhallin 4,563]

It's the responsibility of both players to catch mandatory effects.

 

If both players miss something like that, then IMHO you correct the game state as best you can.  If the miss has impacted something that can't reasonably be rewound, then it's past and you chalk it up to a mistake.

 

Trying to drop a stress on you mid-activation after you've already picked your maneuver isn't appropriate, IMHO.

[Chioxin 37]

For me, if your cards have an effect, then YOU are the one who is responsible for acting on those cards... In other words, the opponent should have said immediately after attacking, that "Oh ya, and you get a stress token for firing at me." It's on them if it's forgotten because it's their cards and their build. They should know it better than you do.

 

I think if that had happened to me, even if I were your opponent, I'd be "Oh, ****, forgot that you should have a stress on there. Oh well. Will remember that next time you fire at him." That's honestly the only fair way to handle that situation.

[StephenEsven 632]

For me, if your cards have an effect, then YOU are the one who is responsible for acting on those cards... In other words, the opponent should have said immediately after attacking, that "Oh ya, and you get a stress token for firing at me." It's on them if it's forgotten because it's their cards and their build. They should know it better than you do.

 

I think if that had happened to me, even if I were your opponent, I'd be "Oh, ****, forgot that you should have a stress on there. Oh well. Will remember that next time you fire at him." That's honestly the only fair way to handle that situation.

I agree.

This is clearly a case of missed opportunity. The opponent missed the opportunity to deal the stress. Had he remembered as the next ships attacked then perhaps you could still correct the game state. But as soon as a new round started it is too late.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

For me, if your cards have an effect, then YOU are the one who is responsible for acting on those cards... In other words, the opponent should have said immediately after attacking, that "Oh ya, and you get a stress token for firing at me." It's on them if it's forgotten because it's their cards and their build. They should know it better than you do.

 

I think if that had happened to me, even if I were your opponent, I'd be "Oh, ****, forgot that you should have a stress on there. Oh well. Will remember that next time you fire at him." That's honestly the only fair way to handle that situation.

I agree.

This is clearly a case of missed opportunity. The opponent missed the opportunity to deal the stress. Had he remembered as the next ships attacked then perhaps you could still correct the game state. But as soon as a new round started it is too late.

I disagree. 

Whenever there is a choice involved (here the choice is to remember that the effect exists), the person with the choice has more power than when they do not.

 

If it is advantageous to the attacker to receive that stress (With, say, Farlander or Fel, who would then have a free Focus effect to use on the attack.), if the defender "Forgets" to enforce the card, they receive less damage.

 

 

Remember: some people are utter bastards, and are more okay with abusing the rules than cheating with dice.

....This is advice from the Pro-Fortressing advocate who discovered the "Nope" button.

I know there are people worse than me

[Hobojebus 11,341]

It's a mandatory effect missed opportunity does not apply the card does not say you may take a stress.

You forgot the token but your still stressed regardless so he gets to set your dial.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Sometimes I can barely remember to use my own abilities and effects for my cards/upgrades and titles. It's not my job to manage both squads in the fight. As noted by a few folks above, if it can be applied without having to undo any actions/events/damage fine, go for it. But if my opponent expects me to know exactly what every single card of his/hers does for the whole fight... nuh-uh. 

[Arschbombe 1,001]

It's a mandatory effect missed opportunity does not apply the card does not say you may take a stress.

You forgot the token but your still stressed regardless so he gets to set your dial.

 

That seems unduly harsh.   Why should the rebel captive player get an extra benefit from his own mistake?  It's his upgrade card in his list.  "I f'ed up so now I get to screw you really hard" doesn't strike me as the right answer here.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Sometimes I can barely remember to use my own abilities and effects for my cards/upgrades and titles. It's not my job to manage both squads in the fight. As noted by a few folks above, if it can be applied without having to undo any actions/events/damage fine, go for it. But if my opponent expects me to know exactly what every single card of his/hers does for the whole fight... nuh-uh. 

So are you required to remember when your opponent should roll an extra die because of range?  What about remembering when you should take normal stress?  What about Carnor Jax?  If you take a focus while too close to your opponent and he doesn't call you on it, is that his responsibility too?

 

There is no distinction in the rules about who owns a mandatory effect, and there's no distinction that makes card abilities somehow less mandatory than standard rules.  Forgetting a stress from Rebel Captive is absolutely no different than forgetting a stress from a red maneuver or hitting debris.

[StevenO 2,996]

So are you required to remember when your opponent should roll an extra die because of range?  What about remembering when you should take normal stress?  What about Carnor Jax?  If you take a focus while too close to your opponent and he doesn't call you on it, is that his responsibility too?

 

There is no distinction in the rules about who owns a mandatory effect, and there's no distinction that makes card abilities somehow less mandatory than standard rules.  Forgetting a stress from Rebel Captive is absolutely no different than forgetting a stress from a red maneuver or hitting debris.

 

 

Makes me think of Han firing at "that TIE Fighter there" and then rerolling again because it wasn't a good roll then follow up that reroll with the Focus token.  Whose job is it to point out that "that TIE Fighter" is Dark Curse and all of those things couldn't be done?

[TezzasGames 1,014]

Your opponent forgot to mention his Rebel Captive effect when he was being attacked, in a Premier Rules Tournament. 

 

It's a clear case of "missed opportunity" by your opponent - he forgot to use his card effect when indicated.

 

Move on and keep playing.

[Rinehart 684]

The state of the game is represented by what's on the board.  That includes the tokens on the board.  For a ship to be stressed it must have a stress token next to it.  If there is no stress token next to it, then it cannot be considered stressed for the purposes of planning and decision making.  Both players should have taken note of the Rebel Captive and made sure the ship got stressed.  But that didn't happen.  Decisions, by BOTH players, were made during the planning stage with the information that the ship did NOT have stress.  Once decisions have been made and movements performed, it's too late to alter the state of the game by adding the stress.  

 

More to the point, if you allow someone with Rebel Captive to add the stress later, you are creating a giant opportunity for abuse.  If the precedent is set that a ship that was supposed to take stress from Reb Cap, but didn't, can then have it applied later after a red maneuver has been set on it's dial, it will be constantly abused.  Players who own the Reb Cap will have little incentive to remind their opponent that they should take the stress when declaring their attack, but instead will wait until after the next activation step, or some other opportune time, to completely disrupt their opponents activation.  This is a terrible outcome, far far worse than the ship not taking the stress.

 

It's better that the game effect is missed entirely than it is that a legal vector is created to allow a player to control his opponents activation through retroactively enforcing the stress game effect.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Rinehart

[Parravon 5,217]

^ This, I agree with. If the opponent thinks the ship is stressed after he forgot to mention it from the turn before, he's dreaming. Mandatory effects still need to be mentioned by the player owning the card in question. if the effect was forgotten and no stress token was applied, it's too late to add it when the dial is being revealed.

[Amraam01 154]

It's a mandatory effect missed opportunity does not apply the card does not say you may take a stress.

You forgot the token but your still stressed regardless so he gets to set your dial.

If it is not on the board it didnt happen; it is a missed opportunity, you share a bigger burden to enforce what is on your squad,  You cant expect the opponent to always remember what is on your ship.  And it seems most feel this is a correct interpretation of the rules, if it is not feasible to go back (Example- placing a stress at the end of a round because both players forgot vs. adding the stress 1/2 way into revealing dials in the next round.)  

 

Now I would say this contrasts greatly in another example, I forgot to add a stress after going through debris, 1/2 way into revealing dials it was noticed.   Since I did a red and should have had a stress, my opponent set my dial.  In this case, it was not forgetting what was on the opponents ship, but forgetting a game mechanic.  Ultimately it was my responsibility to ensure I had a stress.  

Edited July 1, 2015 by Amraam01

[DR4CO 6,234]

Discussions like this really make we wish that FFG would adopt Wizard's MtG rule that maintaining a correct game state is both player's responsibilities. The location of the Rebel Captive is open information that will take exactly two seconds to confirm; there really is no excuse to not know what you're shooting at.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I'm honestly curious why people think it's "Owner of the Rebel Captive is responsible for declaring it"?

 

Rebel Captive creates a game effect which affects a particular ship.  That ship is the attacker.  Honestly, if anything it seems like it should be the attacker's responsibility to remember the effect, since their ship is the one affected by it.  A lot of people seem to think that it's your card, so it's your responsibility - but how is it any different from (as several people have brought out as an example) going through a debris field?  Your ship become subject to a mandatory effect.  The rules make no distinction for the source of that effect - at no point in the rules do you have less responsibility for carrying out a mandatory effect from an opponent's ability vs. a mandatory effect when you interact with a neutral game element.

 

So what makes the owner bear more responsibility than the affected ship?  And what is the actual rules basis for that, or are we just playing Magic X-wing again?

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Waving away mandatory effects as missed opportunity does not seem right to me at all, it's not an opportunity it's a penalty.

If I do a hard one with a defender but get distracted and forget to place a stress token do I then get to take actions next turn? I'd say no even though it would benefit me.

Only tycho gets to ignore stress.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

Where, in the Tournament Rules, is it printed that you must remind your opponent about their card effects?

[Parravon 5,217]

Good point. I rarely examine my opponents build before a game. But once the opportunity presents itself for an effect to come into play, then sure, both players should make an honest effort to keep track of it.

But if my opponent forgets to mention or use an effect for the first time, mandatory or not, it's not in play yet. Simple as that.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Parravon

[Stronghammer 195]

Funny that he remembered when you revealed your dial, makes me think that he is trying to abuse the rules there.

Granted sometimes you do forget the mandatory effects. If it was pointed out at the end of the combat phase for instance sure. But not after dials have been set as others have mentioned. It does say immediately, so it should happen right away. To reiterate what others have said, if the token is not on there, then you take it that it's not in effect " oh yes my phantom cloaked after shooting and I'm de loaning now, I just didn't put the token down"

Worst case, send an email to Alex or frank and see what they think.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

It's on both players. If you forget/miss that an opponent's ship has an effect that effects you, they should pick up on it.

 

You shot at his ship that he knew had Rebel Captive, and you didn't put a stress on for firing at it. he then should of said "hey, don't forget you get a stress for firing at him".

 

He either forgot too, in which case you either agree to step back to the dial setting stage and put the stress on, or you agree to class it as missed opportunity. Or the 3rd option is get a TO to rule it.

 

Or he knew you missed it and deliberately waited till it was crap for you to bring it up (so he could argue his case for setting your dial for you)

 

Know what's in your build, make sure you opponent knows/is reminded of what's in your build, and vice versa.

Edited July 1, 2015 by InterceptorMad

[Rinehart 684]

Rebel Captive is one of the most awkward cards in the game. It's a mandatory effect, but I'd bet the stress mechanic is the most often forgotten about effect. I forget about it when I have it, and I see others forget about it constantly.

I don't think the question at hand is whether or not the stress is a mandatory thing, the question is how do you handle the situation when it is forgotten about until later. It will be forgotten and a consistent method to deal with the oversight should be determined.

In my opinion, the only rational way is to treat it as a missed opportunity. If you allow the stress to be added at some later point you open it up to abuse. If it's not a missed opportunity, how much time can pass before the stress can be added? Can someone remember 3 turns later? This falls under the 2 wrongs don't make a right. It is technically breaking the game rules to not immediately add the stress, but it's also breaking the rules to add it at any time other than immediately. Breaking the rules a second time is not better than breaking them once.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Waving away mandatory effects as missed opportunity does not seem right to me at all

It's no where nearly that simple.

There comes a time where an effect can no longer be fairly applied to the game if it was missed when it should of gone into effect.

For example for 3 rounds I don't notice the other guy is rolling all his dice when I attack his ships with Wedge. Should we somehow go back and retroactively apply damage to those ships? That's a mandatory effect after all.

It's the same thing here, if you can't rewind the game state then you have to continue with the game in it's current state, not the state it was supposed to be in. The other option is to roll a die, which I'd expect would be the official answer, that is listed as the process to use when two people can't agree on the rules or the correct game state.

Edited July 1, 2015 by VanorDM