father dagon and tear gas

[Lexx 0]

Can father dagon disrupt tear gas which would destroy him even though his card power says "event" not 'attachment"?

[Muzar 0]

In a word, 'no'.

In more words, you'll need more than just Tear Gas to destroy Father Dagon.  You need to get his 5 skill down to 0, and I would rule that any events that are used to lower his skill for this purpose are contributing to an effect that would destroy him.

Ergo, he could use his Disrupt ability to pay 1 and sacrifice a Deep One to negate, for example, Like a Moth if he had Tear Gas already attached (since, under those circumstances, Like a Moth is an event that would destroy him).

However, if you played Like a Moth at a time when it wouldn't destroy Father Dagon then his Disrupt would not trigger.  If you subsequently attach Tear Gas to him then he couldn't do a thing, because he can't trigger his effect against a non-event card.  It's all in the timing and order of card play.

Tricky, huh?

[PRODIGEE 0]

 

I wouldn't have to rule such a thing, but I'd say "No" if the skill of Dagon is at least up to 1

Tear Gas does say explicitly that you destroy a character if the skill reach 0. That's ok.

But if the event/attachment doesn't yet reach the O skill limit, it is not consider as a "destroy effect"

 

In my opinion (tkae it just for what it is ) I won't rule the thing like Muzar_Nulus did :

Ergo, he could use his Disrupt ability to pay 1 and sacrifice a Deep One to negate, for example, Like a Moth if he had Tear Gas already attached (since, under those circumstances, Like a Moth is an event that would destroy him).

It's not Like a Moth which owns a "destroy effect", it's the Tear Gas, so You should just destroy the tear gas with the text of Dagon ... Like a moth doesn't owns a specific "destroy effect". That is no this effect which bring destruction over Dagon ....

I would say that, in this case, Dagon's disrupt would work other the Gas (which has a lasting effect being an anttachment)

[Muzar 0]

OK, I was putting myself forward a bit too much with the word 'rule' - I was thinking as a tournament-running Servitor which is something I haven't been for quite a while, making a local ruling.

Dagon can't do anything about the Tear Gas, since he can only deal with Events and not Support cards.

Also, his text doesn't say that the event must have 'destroy a character' or similar in its text, he can:

Pay 1 and sacrifice a Deep One character to cancel the effects of an event card that would destroy Dagon.

So, if an the effects of an event card would destroy Dagon, he can trigger that effect to cancel its effects.  Under the circumstances, the effect of Like a Moth would destroy Dagon, so he should be able to cancel the effects of that event card.

IMHO. 

[PRODIGEE 0]

Well, considering the FAQ, I remember this :

You said : Dagon can only deal with Event. You're totally right.

But Tear Gas has a text that stated that it gains the Attachment subtypes. It's not changed !!! So it's still an Event, IMHO. And it is the only thing that cause Dagon to possibly get destroy, as if you ever play "Like a Moth against Dagon and don't have Tear Gas on the table, that wouldn't cause any possible destruction to Dagon.

I keep saying that Like a Moth doesn't do anything except lowering skill, but I don't know to explain it properly, may the FAQ would do better than me ^^ :

 

FAQ LCG V.1

ATTACHED CARD

When a card is attached to another card du to card effects, that card is now considered a Support card (regardless of it normal type), with the attachment subtype

 

 

Read the whole thing, and you'll know what I want to say (copy/paste is impossible today, this forum really suxxx, it's the worst ever!!)

[Muzar 0]

You quoted the relevant passage from the FAQ yourself (from page 6):

When a card becomes attached to
another card due to card effects, that
card is now considered a support card
(regardless of its normal type) with the
Attachment subtype. The card loses all
of its characteristics (such as skill value,
icons, and type) except for any text that
applies to its attached state. The card
retains its faction identity and printed cost.

Therefore, once Tear Gas is played and its Action is resolved it has ceased to be an Event and has become a Support card.  Unless the Action of playing the Tear Gas would destroy Dagon (i.e. he was down to 1 skill or lower) his Disrupt is useless at that stage against the Tear Gas - and even in that situation the question becomes when exactly does Tear Gas transition from being an Event to being a Support card.  I had thought that it would occur prior to its text having any effect, since as an Event it doesn't do anything except attach itself and, as of that instant, it becomes a Support card with the relevant game text.

Ergo, my opinion is that Dagon can't do anything about Tear Gas, since by the time it has any effect on him it is no longer an Event.  It is a Syndicate 1-cost Support card (having lost its previous type) with the Attachment subtype and with text, "Attached character gets -1 skill, and is destroyed if its skill is 0".

[PRODIGEE 0]

Muzar_Nulus said:

Therefore, once Tear Gas is played and its Action is resolved it has ceased to be an Event and has become a Support card. 

My english is really low-leveled, but I do'nt know where it is stated that the card is too be considered as a support and no more as an event. IMO, the wording "regardless of its normal type" is to be considered as the precision that a card that has a type and changes type has now two types.

The wording isn't "change the type of the card" or anything that means that it lost its Effect status. I don't feel like the card transform itself, but just add a type to her original type. This is why I consider Dagon to be relevant to play its effect.

Why do I say so ?

Cause this card "Tear Gas" work like MU Science building : It GAINS a subtype. This text isn't like " It BECOMES" .....

I'd love to hear Marius or Hastur on this purpose ...

[PRODIGEE 0]

Muzar_Nulus said:

You quoted the relevant passage from the FAQ yourself (from page 6):

When a card becomes attached to
another card due to card effects, that
card is now considered a support card
(regardless of its normal type) with the
Attachment subtype. The card loses all
of its characteristics (such as skill value,
icons, and type) except for any text that
applies to its attached state. The card
retains its faction identity and printed cost.

Therefore, once Tear Gas is played and its Action is resolved it has ceased to be an Event and has become a Support card.  Unless the Action of playing the Tear Gas would destroy Dagon (i.e. he was down to 1 skill or lower) his Disrupt is useless at that stage against the Tear Gas - and even in that situation the question becomes when exactly does Tear Gas transition from being an Event to being a Support card.  I had thought that it would occur prior to its text having any effect, since as an Event it doesn't do anything except attach itself and, as of that instant, it becomes a Support card with the relevant game text.

Ergo, my opinion is that Dagon can't do anything about Tear Gas, since by the time it has any effect on him it is no longer an Event.  It is a Syndicate 1-cost Support card (having lost its previous type) with the Attachment subtype and with text, "Attached character gets -1 skill, and is destroyed if its skill is 0".

Muzar_Nulus said:

Therefore, once Tear Gas is played and its Action is resolved it has ceased to be an Event and has become a Support card. 

My english is really low-leveled, but I do'nt know where it is stated that the card is too be considered as a support and no more as an event. IMO, the wording "regardless of its normal type" is to be considered as the precision that a card that has a type and changes type has now two types.

The wording isn't "change the type of the card" or anything that means that it lost its Effect status. I don't feel like the card transform itself, but just add a type to her original type. This is why I consider Dagon to be relevant to play its effect.

Why do I say so ?

Cause this card "Tear Gas" work like MU Science building : It GAINS a subtype. This text isn't like " It BECOMES" .....

I'd love to hear Marius or Hastur on this purpose ...

[Muzar 0]

They seem to be staying well clear... 

Anyway, the FAQ states that "The card loses all of its characteristics (such as skill value, icons, and type) ..." and, since 'Event', 'Support', 'Conspiracy' and 'Character' are a card's 'type' it seem clear to me that Tear Gas loses its 'Event' type and gains a 'Support' type, becoming a Support card rather than a combination Event/Support card.  IMHO.

Marius?  chicklewis?  Anybody?

[PRODIGEE 0]

Well I had a discussion with an older player, and he told me that I have to consider that the fact to attach the card is to be linked to the "blanking of type", even if the card stated something a little different.

The card don't change her type. She loose one, she gains another.

That's maybe why I could'nt handle this one, as I was looking for something that transform the type.

 

So, I was wrong .... My bad !

[Muzar 0]

Yeah, it can be a complicated game and I've been wrong on many a previous occasion... 

Now, is Lexx satisfied with this well-argued answer?

[Lexx 0]

Thanks all. Very useful info.