Difference between "participates in an attack" and "attacks"?

[Agesilaos 0]

Hi,

Is there a difference between "participates in an attack" and "attacks"?

 

For example:

1) Legolas' text says:

"Response: After Legolas participates in an attack that destroys an enemy, place 2 progress tokens on the current quest."

Do I only get to place a progress token on the current quest if Legolas attacks with at least one other character, or can I also place a progress token on the current quest if he attacks alone?

 

2) Similarly, the Blade of Gondolin says:

"After attached hero attacks and destroys an enemy, place 1 progress token on the current quest."

Do I only get to place a progress token on the current quest if the hero attacks alone, or also if the hero attacks with at least one other character?

 

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

Regards,

 

Agesilaos

[Teamjimby 630]

It's the same.  You get to place progress either way.

[ppsantos 20]

If they mean the same, then why were these two worded differently?  Both Legolas and Blade of Gondolin belong to the Core Set, so apparently, the designer of the game are aware of this difference.   If participating in an attack is the same as "attacks and destroy an enemy", they would have been worded the same way.

 

I'm curious if Legolas ability only triggers when he participates using his ranged attack (ie legolas attacks enemy engaged with a different player).

[DukeWellington 312]

A character can initiate an attack and a character can participate in an attack that is initiated by another character. Either way, the character is participating. The reason they didn't just say "attack" is because they wanted it to be very clear that the ability also worked if they were joining another character's attack. Also, let's say they just said "kill an enemy". If they said that than attack with 3 participants might be confusing because people might ask which of the 3 actually killed the enemy. By phrasing it the way they did they avoided that confusion. That is all.

[jnicol 48]

No one has explained why Blade of Gondolin doesn't also use the phrase "participates in an attack". It seems incconsistent to use precise phrasing on Legolas and imprecise phrasing on Blade of Gondgolin. I guess it was just an oversight on the part of the card designer.

[Teamjimby 630]

It is inconsistent and both wordings are used on several cards.  I've never seen anyone play the wordings differently, but it's possible that we are all wrong (it's happened before).  If you want more clarification, you should send an email to Caleb and post his response here.

[Agesilaos 0]

Hi all,

thanks for the reply and the discussion. I agree with Teamjinmby and Jnicol that there appears to be an inconsistency/oversight. How do you contact Caleb?

[Teamjimby 630]

I'm not sure if I should post his email or not, but you can get to him via this link.

 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

[PsychoRocka 1,189]

It is inconsistent and both wordings are used on several cards.  I've never seen anyone play the wordings differently, but it's possible that we are all wrong (it's happened before).  If you want more clarification, you should send an email to Caleb and post his response here.

Surely they are the same but you are right it has happened before that we are all wrong. I might send off a question myself. 

[PsychoRocka 1,189]

Hi Gello,
The Response effect on both Legolas and Blade of Gondolin work the same way. It is not necessary for a character equipped with a Blade of Gondolin to attack alone in order to trigger its effect.
Cheers,
Caleb

[TwiceBorn 298]

I would have been very annoyed if Caleb's response had been other than it was. Thanks for the confirmation, Psycho.

[bubblepopmei 1,155]

My inexperienced perspective is that the Legolas ability triggers whether he is the initial attacker or not. The Blade of Gondolin ability requires the attached hero to be the initial attacker.

[Teamjimby 630]

My inexperienced perspective is that the Legolas ability triggers whether he is the initial attacker or not. The Blade of Gondolin ability requires the attached hero to be the initial attacker.

There's no differentiation between the characters participating in the attack.  Caleb (the designer) already provided an answer above confirming that Legolas and Blade of Gondolin function in the same way.

[JanB 85]

Mmmm .. is "participating" an attack the same as "declaring" an attack?

[cmabr002 292]

Mmmm .. is "participating" an attack the same as "declaring" an attack?

 

If you declare an attack, all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you declare an attack via Ranged (on your turn to declare attacks), all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you participate in an attack via Ranged that another player declared, your characters are participating in that attack, but have not declared it.

[sappidus 531]

If you declare an attack, all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you declare an attack via Ranged (on your turn to declare attacks), all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you participate in an attack via Ranged that another player declared, your characters are participating in that attack, but have not declared it.

 

 

There may be a distinction to be made between "declaring an attack" and "declaring an attacker", i.e., if you participate in an attack via Ranged that another player declared, you did not declare the attack, but you ARE declaring Ranged attacker(s). I think this is part of the issue currently being discussed in the Keywords of Balrog thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/126466-keywords-of-balrog/

 

I suspect we'll need a Caleb ruling to be sure.

[cmabr002 292]

 

If you declare an attack, all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you declare an attack via Ranged (on your turn to declare attacks), all characters that you declared are participating in the attack.

 

If you participate in an attack via Ranged that another player declared, your characters are participating in that attack, but have not declared it.

 

 

There may be a distinction to be made between "declaring an attack" and "declaring an attacker", i.e., if you participate in an attack via Ranged that another player declared, you did not declare the attack, but you ARE declaring Ranged attacker(s). I think this is part of the issue currently being discussed in the Keywords of Balrog thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/126466-keywords-of-balrog/

 

I suspect we'll need a Caleb ruling to be sure.

 

 

I see.  There certainly may be a distinction between declaring an attack and declaring an attacker (I think there probably is).  I tried seeing if the rules are explicit about this, but I cannot find anything concrete.

[CJMatos 54]

Mmmm .. is "participating" an attack the same as "declaring" an attack?

 

Declaring an attack is saying "i'm going to attack enemy X"

 

Participating in an attack is the characters that are "commited" to an attack, either against an engaged enemy, either through ranged or either against an enemy in staging area.

 

 

That is my view of it

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Yeah I agree with CJ.  There's the whole business of having a character attack the same enemy multiple times, after all.  You can have a character declared as an attack multiple times as long as the attack itself can be declared legally (with a limit of 1 attack per enemy per player per round).  So we do have a rules passage that refers to declaring an attacker and declaring an attack as distinct occurrences with different limitations.

 

(From FAQ)

"Characters are not limited as to how many times they can participate in attacks against the same enemy, provided each attack can be legally declared, and the character is ready and eligible to be declared as an attacker."

[Flrbb 75]

Wait, what?

Does this mean that if I do have two heroes, both with a readying effect, each one is able to declare an attack against the very same (eligible) enemy and the other hero can participate??

So, for instance: there is a enemy with 4 shields and 4 hit points. My heroes do have a combined attack power of 6. The first attack would bring the enemy down to two hit points and the second combined attack would kill the enemy?

[NathanH 350]

The limits on number of attacks declared against a creature is by-player not by-hero. Standard combat framework limits each player to one attack per enemy. As many characters as you like can declare this attack.

 

Characters themselves can declare as many attacks per enemy per turn as you like, as long as they have the right to do so by framework or card effect.

 

Probably the rules would be clearer if it was always the case that "delcare an attack" is something that a player does, and "participate in an attack" is something that a character does, but that ship appears to have sailed long ago.