Intuitive Improvements and repairing

[Jereru 171]

Hi there,

 

Intuitive Improvements (p.103): "Force talent. When making a check to repair or craft an item, the character may add [Force Dice] no greater than FR to the check. The character may spend [Force Point] [Force Point] to permanently increase the number of hard points the item has by one, to a maximum of two additional hard points. An item may only be improved in this way once."

 

So I can either craft my gun from zero or repair it, but according to the rules the only way to repair it is when it has been sundered. Does that mean I need to wait until someone decides to sunder my armour, for example? What about a lightsaber (can't be sundered)? Do I need to craft everything I wish to use the talent on? Or wait till the GM decides something is broken or damaged enough for it to be repaired? What if I damage something on purpouse just to roll the repair check? 

 

****, too many questions, too much vagueness, and I didn't even ask about manteinance...

 

Any thoughts you've come up with?

 

Thank you in advance

[Ghostofman 8,319]

So I can either craft my gun from zero or repair it, but according to the rules the only way to repair it is when it has been sundered.

No, the only way to repair it is when it's been broken. Sundering is merely a way to do that. Another way includes this little thing:(Despair)

 

It's not a matter of vagueness, it's that the narrative system is left open to allow interpretation instead of restricting the GM and Player to specific outcomes. You gotta roll with it and make it work. Next time you're battling that inquisitor with your fathers lightsaber and roll a Despair, just say outright "My lightsaber is in pieces now, isn't it?" The GM will probably say "Yes."

 

 

And crafting a lightsaber is pretty easy, and very beneficial beyond just this talent.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ghostofman

[kaosoe 7,573]

I had heard mention of lightsaber crafting rules in the GMs kit (maybe I imagined that?). So until we see those rules, crafting a saber is as easy as getting a crystal, buying hilt (or spending the equivalent credits to get the parts to craft your own) and throwing some narrative mumbo jumbo and poof! you just crafted your own lightsaber. Now, different GMs may want some checks to go with that, but the RAW doesn't require it.

[Jereru 171]

Ahhmm... ok, I thought the Despair (big tanga, in our group) broke the weapon beyond any hope of mending... (in the case of a lightsabers, with 2 Despairs).

Anyway, apart from the deliberate vagueness and/or incoherence, my point is that it seems a bit dumb that I have the capacity of improving something but I need to wait until this something is broken; wanted to see what your thoughts about it were (I thank you for that) and if you had a different point of view.

And yes, making a lightsaber is pretty easy; finding the crystal is another story. But what if I want to modify my armour? Isn't it stupid to be after every encounter like "Is it broken? Please, please, is it broken? Pleeeeeease..."

[Ghostofman 8,319]

Ahhmm... ok, I thought the Despair (big tanga, in our group) broke the weapon beyond any hope of mending... (in the case of a lightsabers, with 2 Despairs).

NOPE! Read it again. Pg 149 Table 6-3. "The tool or weapon the active character is using becomes damaged." Doesn't say anything about beyond any hope of mending, it just gets damaged one step. And that can apply to whatever the GM wants, so lightsaber, blaster, armor... if you're using it, he can damage it.

 

 

But what if I want to modify my armour? Isn't it stupid to be after every encounter like "Is it broken? Please, please, is it broken? Pleeeeeease..."

Yes, it is. But this isn't about you begging, it's about the back and forth between player and the GM. If you have this talent, the GM should be cognizant of that and give you the opportunity to use it when the situation presents itself and the campaign progression makes it appropriate.

 

If you aren't telling the GM what you want to do with your character, that's on you.

[kaosoe 7,573]

I'm AFB, but I believe the mods stay with the crystal (hilt attachments are a different story I suppose), so rebuilding your own lightsaber shouldn't be a big deal. Buy a new hilt, bust up your old one, thrown in your old crystal, and roll your force dice. Sounds feasible enough to me.

Edited June 24, 2015 by kaosoe

[Jereru 171]

 

Ahhmm... ok, I thought the Despair (big tanga, in our group) broke the weapon beyond any hope of mending... (in the case of a lightsabers, with 2 Despairs).

NOPE! Read it again. Pg 149 Table 6-3. "The tool or weapon the active character is using becomes damaged." Doesn't say anything about beyond any hope of mending, it just gets damaged one step. And that can apply to whatever the GM wants, so lightsaber, blaster, armor... if you're using it, he can damage it.

You're right, I got confused with the double Despair.

 

I'm AFB, but I believe the mods stay with the crystal (hilt attachments are a different story I suppose), so rebuilding your own lightsaber shouldn't be a big deal. Buy a new hilt, bust up your old one, thrown in your old crystal, and roll your force dice. Sounds feasible enough to me.

Yes, I know I can do that, but it seems tricky to me. Because the talent says "craft or repair", but the effect is a boost to the weapon/armour's characteristics (in this case, HP) and if I want to apply it to an existing one, I need to wait until it gets broken. If I want, let's say, a better, tuned new exhaust pipe for my car, I don't need to wait until the old one gets broken; that just doesn't make sense.

[Ahrimon 1,211]

This is one of those area's where common sense should prevail.  Any GM that wouldn't let someone apply this to an existing item without it being first broken should take a step back.  What does being broken have to do with anything.  I can disassemble something and it's basically broken now.

[kaosoe 7,573]

If you allow the player to use the talent outside of the bounds of its intended use, you'll need to consider how you'll want to restrict the talent. Based on the description in the OP, the talent can be used over and over again on different pieces of equipment; as opposed to the Tinkerer talent which can only be used on one piece of gear. The talent is not restricted to just your own gear, but can be used on other party members (or faceless NPCs) gear as well. It's also important to note, that there's no timing on it, so without the original restriction, the user can logically roll their force die until they get the desired results.

 

If I took this talent knowing my GM doesn't break equipment, you can bet I'll be talking to my GM so we can work on a way to make this talent work for the game, or come up with an alternative. I expect the same from my own players.

[Ahrimon 1,211]

If you allow the player to use the talent outside of the bounds of its intended use, you'll need to consider how you'll want to restrict the talent. Based on the description in the OP, the talent can be used over and over again on different pieces of equipment; as opposed to the Tinkerer talent which can only be used on one piece of gear. The talent is not restricted to just your own gear, but can be used on other party members (or faceless NPCs) gear as well. It's also important to note, that there's no timing on it, so without the original restriction, the user can logically roll their force die until they get the desired results.

 

If I took this talent knowing my GM doesn't break equipment, you can bet I'll be talking to my GM so we can work on a way to make this talent work for the game, or come up with an alternative. I expect the same from my own players.

Very true, you can use it anything, but that's a problem with the way it's designed in that aspect and not with the "broken" limitation.  Saying something has to be "broken" before it can be worked on is one of those artificial restrictions that make no narrative sense.  When I have to hit my blaster with a hammer until it doesn't work any more in order to improve it is silly.  The true limitation should be that you have to "add the force dice to the check", not roll the force dice and then decide if you want to work on something.  Combined with the wording "An item may only be improved in this way once."  would say to me that you can attempt this once per item.  You get one shot to add the HP and that's it.

 

Plus it's a 25pt talent.  It's right up there with permanently increasing your attributes.

[kaosoe 7,573]

Very true, you can use it anything, but that's a problem with the way it's designed in that aspect and not with the "broken" limitation.  Saying something has to be "broken" before it can be worked on is one of those artificial restrictions that make no narrative sense.  When I have to hit my blaster with a hammer until it doesn't work any more in order to improve it is silly.  The true limitation should be that you have to "add the force dice to the check", not roll the force dice and then decide if you want to work on something.  Combined with the wording "An item may only be improved in this way once."  would say to me that you can attempt this once per item.  You get one shot to add the HP and that's it.

 

Plus it's a 25pt talent.  It's right up there with permanently increasing your attributes.

 

I think it would be fair if a GM allows the talent to be used outside of "repairing or crafting" the item with the caveat that you only get one chance to improve each item. But I am still worried the ability to use the talent on every piece of gear still makes the talent too good with the house rule. Especially if you have a 2+ in Force Rating.

 

What about one item per Force rating?

[Ghostofman 8,319]

 

Very true, you can use it anything, but that's a problem with the way it's designed in that aspect and not with the "broken" limitation.  Saying something has to be "broken" before it can be worked on is one of those artificial restrictions that make no narrative sense.  When I have to hit my blaster with a hammer until it doesn't work any more in order to improve it is silly.

 

You think it's silly for the narrative to have your character take a broken item and in the course of fixing it find a way to improve it?

 

Intuitive improvements is a really good talent. Totally worth the XP to get it, if you understand what it does in the big picture. The problem here is perspective, so lets compare:

 

The non-forcee solution is:

Tinkerer

-Choose 1 piece of equipment, increase it's HP by 1.

-Only once per item.

-Only 1 item per rank of Tinkerer.

-Until that item/s is "lost" you can't add HP to any more items then you have ranks in TInkerer.

 

Forcee's get:

Intuitive improvements:

-When making a check to to repair or craft an item may add Force Dice = FR and spend 2 Pips to permanently increase it's HP by 1 to a max of 2.

-May only be done once per item.

 

 

 

So let's review.

-If I want to improve my armor with Tinkerer, I can just do it, add a single HP, but it'll only work that once, for that armor, and I can't do it to any other item at all until I ditch that armor or get another rank in Tinkerer.

 

-If I want to improve my armor with Intuitive Improvements, I have to wait to repair it, or craft it myself. But, I can get a max of 2 additional HP. AND I can do it on my armor, my blaster, my lightsaber, my friends blaster, my friends lightsaber, my friends armor, the armor of that merc we helped that one time...ect.

 

That's a pretty big frelling difference. And considering how unrestricted the talent is compared to other options, having you wait till something is broken is a pretty reasonable balance.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ghostofman

[Ahrimon 1,211]

 

 

Very true, you can use it anything, but that's a problem with the way it's designed in that aspect and not with the "broken" limitation.  Saying something has to be "broken" before it can be worked on is one of those artificial restrictions that make no narrative sense.  When I have to hit my blaster with a hammer until it doesn't work any more in order to improve it is silly.

 

You think it's silly for the narrative to have your character take a broken item and in the course of fixing it find a way to improve it?

 

<snip>

 

No, that much I get.  I think it's silly that it has to be broken first.  I can't disassemble it and attempt to improve it.  It has to be created from scratch or broken.  Let me use a blaster as an example.  If I have a blaster sitting in front of me and a box of parts for that same blaster I can either build a brand new one from the parts and use intuitive improvements or I can smash the working blaster with a hammer and then fix it using intuitive improvements.  What I can't do is take the working blaster and attempt to upgrade it using intuitive improvements without first breaking it.  That's the part that I find silly.  Or more accurately I should say it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

 

I guess if you consider disassembling something and putting it back together to be the same as building it from scratch then that fixes my perceived gaping hole in the logic.  Building something from parts shouldn't matter that those parts came from that same something a little bit ago I guess.  I think I'm going to run with this interpretation.

[Ghostofman 8,319]

So your problem isn't with the mechanics, you just don't like the rule. So take Outlaw Tech as a secondary spec and use the Tinkerer talent. There's 2 ranks right there at the top. Done. No only that but the tree has lots of other talents that will allow you to do things like pull stun grenades out of your thermal exhaust port.

 

It sounds like you may like Outlaw Tech more TBH....

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ghostofman

[Jereru 171]

No, Ghostofman, sorry but I think either you don't understand or I am not making myself clear.

I'm asking for a rule that matches common sense. Balance with Outlaw Tech or Tinkerer or whatever is another matter (though of course I want it to be balanced).

If the devs think improving an item's HP is too strong, then remove the "when repairing" part, make me craft it myself and it'll make sense to me. If they think it should be limited, then set a limit (FR or whatever, I don't mind).

I don't want more than I deserve, but what I get I want it to make sense. You don't unweave a uniform nor you do wait until is torn down to rags to sew a patch on it.

In any case, I thank you all for your thoughts. I'll make sure my GM has a look at the thread and I'll let him use common sense, which fortunately he usually does.

[Crimson_red 46]

The only part of "making a check to craft or repair an item," that I find restrictive is the fact that it calls for a check. Regardless if I'm building from scratch or disassembling my blaster and putting in new or premium parts, I'm crafting the blaster. If the blaster has taken damage, regardless of the source, I'm repairing it.

 

In the absence of crafting rules, if I wanted to swap parts out with premium parts (as opposed to repairing wear and tear), I would still model it after the maintenance rules, requiring the PC to purchase the parts at 1/4, 1/2, or full cost of the blaster and have them make their mechanics roll. Any potential benefits of the parts would be determined by the cost and quality of the parts, the difficulty of the roll made, all combined with GM arbitration and narration. Regardless I don't see this as bypassing restrictions, you are working with your GM to tell a story, and whether crafting or repairing, the process takes time and deliberation on the part of the Character. 

 

Taking the Artisan Spec tells me what kind of character the player is making and helps to inform me of his role in the group and the types of stories he wishes participate in. If I did have a player taking the Artisan spec and I thought it was just to slap a couple of HP onto his lightsaber I would probably ask him if that was true. If so I'd suggest around the time he can start to take advantage of the extra HP I could do a story/quest line to find an artisan that can assist him and thus allowing him to focus more on the type of character he really wants to play.

 

(Idea off the cuff: Awranwarr, 800 year old wookie artisan, hidden on the forest floor of Kashyyk since Order 66; difficult to find and flighty, especially after an inquisitor on the trail of the PCs stumbles upon his home, creating a continuing, and hopefully dynamic, narrative if the PCs want to reuse his services in the future)

[kaosoe 7,573]

Another idea for a house rule would be to allow the check to be made when applying an attachment to an item as well as crafting and repairing. This may make the talent too good depending on the item since there are a lot of attachments available for certain items.

[Lathrop 838]

I don't want more than I deserve, but what I get I want it to make sense. You don't unweave a uniform nor you do wait until is torn down to rags to sew a patch on it.

 

Well, since the talent is meant to be used when you're building it from scratch/going into it to repair it and trying to fix its core components, I would say that yes, to an extent, you would need to "unweave a uniform", since you're adding HP by basically making everything about the item more efficient and allowing for more physical space for attachments.

 

I'd say if you're not repairing something or crafting it, then if you just want to get into the item and do Intuitive Improvements, 1 Difficulty check. It's the same as repairing a slightly damaged item. You can argue it should potentially be lower since the item isn't damaged, but I'd say it balances since you don't have to bother spending credits on spare parts, and it really isn't going to be a challenge for an Artisan that dropped 95+ XP on talents anyways.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Of course, bear in mind a lot of this could very well change, since we're still waiting on the actual core rulebook to hit shelves, in contrast to the Beta that we currently have...

[Ahrimon 1,211]

I'm good with charging credits to work on an undamaged item. Tinkering takes parts and materials.

How I interpret the talent gives it limitation enough to not be abused IMO. You decide to use the talent. If you are building from scratch you pay credits for or use enough parts on hand as determined by the GM. If you are repairing or upgrading you spend the appropriate credits or parts for the repair. Then you roll your mechanic dice and force dice at the same time and if you get enough force point ts to add at least one HP you add it and you can't use this talent on that item again. If you don't get enough force point ts for at least one HP you can try again. Either way you've spent the credits or parts.