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chriscook

Too easy to cheat!

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The dial thing doesn't worry me too much.  If they can pull off a slight of hand stunt like that, then like Corellian Corvette said, they could just nudge the actual dial to whatever they wanted on the pretext of 'aligning the command stack' or what not.  If someone has a WAAC mentality that goes as far as cheating, then they'll find an opportunity.  They've probably already worn out the plastic movement tool's 'clicks' anyway.

 

... that movement tool, while a cool idea on paper, is terribly uncomfortable to use when there are fighters and other ships cluttering the table, the tool very often forced people to remove their fighters for the sake of movement and then put them back where they were...

 

I never got how this was much of an issue.  Not because I didn't trust anyone, but because I was fairly certain when I first opened the box, that the 'deployment zone' bits were right angles for marking ship that had to be removed for the movement tool.  It turns out I was wrong, but they still work terrific for that purpose.  Then the starfighters... well, It seemed like common sense to make a simple marker chit (or 4).  As long as you can cutch a V notch in something other than your hand, then you can cut a triangle or square base with that V and the squadron base will fit into it.  Facing doesn't matter, and the space will be marked.

2uho8ck.jpg

 

Post Scriptum edit: Or you can do what Ninja Sensei Lyraeus said and buy a set like that.  I don't have the patience to wait for shipping, but yeah, that!

Rules say you just guess rather than move anything if manouvering a ship.

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Rules say you just guess rather than move anything if manouvering a ship.

 

 

-shrugs- alright, you're right, mate... in a way, kinda, and also wrong at the same time. This is actually kinda fun in a weird way.

 

Maneuver Tool (Rules Reference, P.7): If the maneuver tool cannot be placed on the play area because it would overlap a ship or squadron, the player should (I'll just note that unlike all the other wording, this one isn't defined by the words 'must' or 'may' which is strange but important) hold the maneuver tool above the play area and estimate the final position of the moving ship. (p.12 supports this again under squadron movement).

 

And the supportive statement (Tournament Rules, P.5) Margin of Error. Ships and squadrons are sometimes moved accidentally or placed inexactly, during the normal course of the game. This may occur if a ship or squadron is bumped or removed and then replaced when overlapped. A small margin of error is allowed in the position and orientation of ships and squadrons in these situations so the pace of the game is not unnecessarily affected. Players should not abuse this margin of error, and they must use the tools included with the game to be as accurate as possible. ....

 

But there's an exception in the Tournament Rules as well: (Tournament Rules, P.6) Movement. Players must follow all movement rules in the Star Wars: Armada Learn to Play and Rules Reference Booklets. ... It may be necessary to move a ship when the maneuver tool cannot be directly placed onto the play area due to the presence of other ships or squadrons. When this occurs, players may (see, this is why I noted the 'strange' thing in the first place) mark the position of the intervening models in a mutually agreeable way, move the activated ship, then replace the removed models. (It's written in red, emphasis theirs :P)

 

We can extrapolate a little more by using two other rules:

 

Engagement (Rules Reference, P.11): An engaged Squadron cannot move. (cannot being the operating word here, even if cannot is noted to be for cards).

 

And supplementary: Play Surface (Tournament Rules, P.3): competitive play in Star Wars: Armada depends on precise placement of ships and squadrons. (even in the Margin of Error rules, it's about maintaining accuracy).

 

TL;DR: It's a draw folks, no one's doing it wrong. But, it may make it arguably abusable on one hand or tiresomeon the other, depending on which method you chose.

Edited by Vykes

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Guest BladeWing24

Cheating or not if some is winning too much just stop playing them. I have to call bad sportsmanship on anyone running up score or knowing your opponent is having a bad run but still playing your A game builds. Give a guy a break you don't want him to give up playing because he has to play on brutal difficulty all the time. In video games it's literally a game killer force a player into a steep learning curve it's killed plenty of games. I literally am having to take time away from both Armada and X-wing to do this problem in my community. There is a point when the game stops being fun and just becomes that chore you do only to feel berated because you never field the build of the month and lose.

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****Story time, long and only semi-meaningful****

A year maybe 2 ago, I got into a rather heated discussion with someone on the X-Wing rules boards. In X-Wing ships move in PS order, lowest to highest. He had gotten into the habit of moving all his PS X ships at the same time. So if he had 4 PS1 Tie Fighters, he'd move all 4, then take actions for all 4. This is clearly against the rules, there's really not even a grey area that would could be interpreted to allow this. The rules state that you move a ship, take the ships action then move on to the next ship.

I was accused of being a WAAC rules lawyer when I pointed out he was breaking the rules. That while in a casual game someone might be ok with it some of the times. It was not allowed by the rules.

He tried to claim he only did it when it didn't matter, and since it didn't give him an advantage then he should be allowed to do it. I pointed out the rules are clear, and don't say 'if you don't get an advantage' you can do that.

Well eventually he started in with the name calling, accusing me of 'interpreting the rules in the strictest possible sense' Because apparently expecting people to play by the pain text of the rules is the strictest possible sense. He finally said that if anyone wouldn't let him play like that, he'd flip the table and start throwing punches. That was when he was banned I believe.

 

lol, I remeber that thread/discussion

 

God.  Me too.  I quit the game after that.  I wanted nothing to do with it anymore.

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Cheating or not if some is winning too much just stop playing them. I have to call bad sportsmanship on anyone running up score or knowing your opponent is having a bad run but still playing your A game builds. Give a guy a break you don't want him to give up playing because he has to play on brutal difficulty all the time. In video games it's literally a game killer force a player into a steep learning curve it's killed plenty of games. I literally am having to take time away from both Armada and X-wing to do this problem in my community. There is a point when the game stops being fun and just becomes that chore you do only to feel berated because you never field the build of the month and lose.

 

This is a good point.  I play a lot of tournaments, and I am always looking for additional practice.  But not everyone else around here is looking for tournament play.  I always ask first if they're OK with me playing a tournament list, and offer to play a more friendly list if possible in the event that they're looking for a more relaxed match.

That said, I was really shocked at GenCon how many people didn't know about rules they probably should have, such as what happens if you are forced back over the tool after a ram.  Players in a major competitive setting should make an effort to know the rules of the game as thoroughly as possible.

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Cheating or not if some is winning too much just stop playing them. I have to call bad sportsmanship on anyone running up score or knowing your opponent is having a bad run but still playing your A game builds. Give a guy a break you don't want him to give up playing because he has to play on brutal difficulty all the time. In video games it's literally a game killer force a player into a steep learning curve it's killed plenty of games. I literally am having to take time away from both Armada and X-wing to do this problem in my community. There is a point when the game stops being fun and just becomes that chore you do only to feel berated because you never field the build of the month and lose.

 

This is a good point.  I play a lot of tournaments, and I am always looking for additional practice.  But not everyone else around here is looking for tournament play.  I always ask first if they're OK with me playing a tournament list, and offer to play a more friendly list if possible in the event that they're looking for a more relaxed match.

That said, I was really shocked at GenCon how many people didn't know about rules they probably should have, such as what happens if you are forced back over the tool after a ram.  Players in a major competitive setting should make an effort to know the rules of the game as thoroughly as possible.

 

Wait. . . there are builds of the month? There is such thing as too much winning? I am so confused. .  .

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Ask Charlie Sheen if there is such a thing as too much winning

 

Also: you don't subscribe to build of the month club? Do you even PLAY Armada?

You mean the new build every week I play?

Be the trend setter not the follower.

It's not my fault I win. . . I am just playing new and fun builds.

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I had this big long post written, maybe in part due to just getting home from the bar, but I'll just summarize.

 

In casual play, I don't care if my opponent cheats. I feel like I've seen it every time, and in that moment, I've already won - the challenge changes from me trying to beat them to me trying to beat them with a handicap, and if you do, it's so very sweet. If you don't? They already felt that you were a superior enough player that they needed to cheat, so... again, you've already won.

Edited by What

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I had this big long post written, maybe in part due to just getting home from the bar, but I'll just summarize.

 

In casual play, I don't care if my opponent cheats. I feel like I've seen it every time, and in that moment, I've already won - the challenge changes from me trying to beat them to me trying to beat them with a handicap, and if you do, it's so very sweet. If you don't? They already felt that you were a superior enough player that they needed to cheat, so... again, you've already won.

That can happen, but some cheat right off the bat regardless of opponent strength/superiority.

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Cheating or not if some is winning too much just stop playing them. I have to call bad sportsmanship on anyone running up score or knowing your opponent is having a bad run but still playing your A game builds. Give a guy a break you don't want him to give up playing because he has to play on brutal difficulty all the time. In video games it's literally a game killer force a player into a steep learning curve it's killed plenty of games. I literally am having to take time away from both Armada and X-wing to do this problem in my community. There is a point when the game stops being fun and just becomes that chore you do only to feel berated because you never field the build of the month and lose.

 

This is a good point.  I play a lot of tournaments, and I am always looking for additional practice.  But not everyone else around here is looking for tournament play.  I always ask first if they're OK with me playing a tournament list, and offer to play a more friendly list if possible in the event that they're looking for a more relaxed match.

That said, I was really shocked at GenCon how many people didn't know about rules they probably should have, such as what happens if you are forced back over the tool after a ram.  Players in a major competitive setting should make an effort to know the rules of the game as thoroughly as possible.

Wait. . . there are builds of the month? There is such thing as too much winning? I am so confused. .  .

Yes I think there is such a thing as winning too much (with some at least)...

I haven't played since I think January, but somewhere after the wave 2 event my regular opponent became frustrated because "I can't beat you" and said he needed a break from the game. It can be frustrating if you're almost always on the loss side. Had I known he was getting frustrated before that, I would have been more casual with some of our matches. Some just want the gaming 'experience' and aren't as concerned with analyzing each move for optimum choice. These types of folks can be put off by those that optimize, optimize, optimize.

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I win a lot in my regular group, and I make a point to start taking increasingly less competetive lists after a couple in a row. I won't disrespect by opponents by throwing a match or flying at anything less then my (somewhat inebrieted) best, but I can start experimenting with stuff I'm pretty sure doesn't work. I also ply them with fine whiskey.

You can probably skip the first thing if you bring the whiskey.

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Ask Charlie Sheen if there is such a thing as too much winning

 

Also: you don't subscribe to build of the month club? Do you even PLAY Armada?

You mean the new build every week I play?

Be the trend setter not the follower.

It's not my fault I win. . . I am just playing new and fun builds.

 

Wow, you sure have a way of murdering the funny.

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As to the topic of cheating.

 

I was at a tourney recently where one of my opponents was very likely performing some "sleight of hand" shenanigans. I noticed out of the corner of my eye he would fidget with his dials when i wasn't looking and always seemed to have the right one, some collision damage from early turns where he bumped himself seemed to mysteriously disappear and I didn't notice until one of his ships took a little longer to kill than I had expected (by which time enough more damage cards had been dealt that I couldn't prove it) and worst of all after some bad rolls he insisted on using the dice app and would constantly roll while I wasn't looking at the screen and once when I looked up unexpectedly I would swear on my firstborns head I saw him doing his vader re-roll twice on a critical roll. 

 

He got defensive when I asked that he make sure I could see everything he was doing with the app from then on, but by that time it was too late anyway. I don't mind losing, I do it enough, believe me. What I do mind is feeling like your opponent was playing dirty. It's weird because 90% of the time in the Armada community (even in competitive play) you get accustomed to some pretty chill people who would rather cut off their own wangs than cheat, at most they will argue or quibble over millimeters and bumps but thats expected and part of the game but that ONE GUY who you think but cant prove is cheating sours the whole experience.

 

Yes it's possible to cheat in significant ways in the game and no there is no mechanical way to really stop it other than having an impartial third party watch the proceedings like a hawk. Coloring the dials won't work if you are playing with someone who is quite good at doing a blind quarter-turn of the disk while you are focused on something else.

 

I do find that with most of what goes on in a game maintaining a dialogue and framing proceedings can go a long way to generating a mutual understanding with your opponent and playing an honest game, especially when bumping ships and squadrons and inevitably miss-placement happens, but when your opponent has no interest in playing an honest game...

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I've had a few players (definitely in the minority however) who have seemly cheated. Either they were **** good at hiding it, or just so fidgety/nervous they inadvertently cheat.

 

I guess ether way, I'm not too hurt over it. It's ultimately a game, and I'm grateful to be able to travel every month or two for events. Even losing, it's still better than being stuck at work or playing against myself. If you need to cheat then so be it. Somebody will eventually call you out on it and you'll lead your own downfall. If you're nervous and making errors, same thing will happen. Either you'll fix your actions or get out of the game one way or another.

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Let's stick with the obvious, here:

 

If you cheat at Plastic Spaceship Game, you have already lost.

You will continue to lose, forever.

 

As far as playing people like that... don't. If their life is so destitute that they need to cheat for the ego boost of saying they've "won" at a game that means nothing, then leave them alone with their sadness and move on with your life.

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I occasionally accidentally knock over my command stack and feel terrible about it. At that point the only thing I can think of to do is offer my opponent the option of setting my dials as he likes or just trust me to put them back as I remember them. I have also accidentally put my most-recently set dial on the TOP instead of the bottom, or have picked up a dial in the stack and changed its setting instead of the dial I'm suppose to set. I feel like such a doofus doing it. Sometime the game just sucks your brain juices and you screw up. Doesn't happen often but when it does its upsetting. I won't even talk about knocking over 3 ships while trying to move a squad, hah. Stupid clusters!

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Ask Charlie Sheen if there is such a thing as too much winning

 

Also: you don't subscribe to build of the month club? Do you even PLAY Armada?

You mean the new build every week I play?

Be the trend setter not the follower.

It's not my fault I win. . . I am just playing new and fun builds.

 

Wow, you sure have a way of murdering the funny.

 

*shrugs* its a talent it seems. . . One I am trying to murder but it keeps stabbing me in the back!

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Ask Charlie Sheen if there is such a thing as too much winning

 

Also: you don't subscribe to build of the month club? Do you even PLAY Armada?

You mean the new build every week I play?

Be the trend setter not the follower.

It's not my fault I win. . . I am just playing new and fun builds.

Wow, you sure have a way of murdering the funny.

*shrugs* its a talent it seems. . . One I am trying to murder but it keeps stabbing me in the back!

Changing one upgrade at a time does not constitute a new build #whatisDTO?

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Ask Charlie Sheen if there is such a thing as too much winning

 

Also: you don't subscribe to build of the month club? Do you even PLAY Armada?

You mean the new build every week I play?

Be the trend setter not the follower.

It's not my fault I win. . . I am just playing new and fun builds.

Wow, you sure have a way of murdering the funny.
*shrugs* its a talent it seems. . . One I am trying to murder but it keeps stabbing me in the back!

Changing one upgrade at a time does not constitute a new build #whatisDTO?

Sure but then there is my Mothma's Angels, Imperial Oppression, Hypocrisy Initiated, and many nameless builds.

I actually don't play DtO that often. The reason is because I hate dominating a game that much. I want a hard fought game where it comes down to the last turn or two and the tides change. That is my dream game.

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