Star Wars Rebels - Season 2 (Spoilers)

[RogueCorona 1,043]

 

Why not? We're talking about a galaxy wide rebellion and you have a problem with them managing to assemble a starfighter factory.

 

Yes. The Rebellion was an insurgency. Their strength was mobility and distributed organization. They had to be constantly on the move from one base of operations to the next and divided into cells to avoid Imperial capture. A factory is nothing but a great big target that they can't protect. Having a vital logistical resource that can't be moved would be a huge handicap that they couldn't afford. That's why rebellions, insurgencies, resistance movements and terrorists always use scrounged together, out dated, surplus supplies. They don't have the infrastructure to make their own equipment, they have to steal it.

 

 

 

Trust me there have been rebellions throughout history that could manufacture equipment and hiding a starfighter factory in a setting like Star Wars would be much, much easier then hiding any kind of factory or shipyard on Earth.

 

Edit: It is also possible theoretically for the rebellion to create mobile factories for fighters and smaller equipment by installing the manufacturing hardware in a large freighter. I don't know that they did that but they might have.

Edited June 22, 2015 by RogueCorona

[Vigil 687]

Clearly the Rebels have access to the Star Forge. 

 

 

I never bought the story that the Rebels actually had the manufacturing capability to turn out X-wings on their own, even if the entire design team had defected. More than likely they aquired the fighters from surplus or local forces joining them. WEG seems to have wanted to make the X seem very special, when it was just a cool looking average fighter.

I get the real feeling that in Star Wars the difficulty is in prototype, research, and design. Actual manufacturing seems to be _incredibly_ easy. Look at the droid factory in (movie) Episode 2. It's able to churn out battle droids in a matter of minutes, and can continue doing so for as long as it has the raw materials.

The first Death Star took about 20 years to build- most of that was spent designing and prototyping. The second Death Star took roughly 3 years- they were able to take the existing plans and start building.

I'd say the reason the Rebellion has more difficulty with getting raw materials and pilots than it does actually finding space to manufacture their fighters.

 

Unless, of course, they started building the second Death Star not long after they began building the first - or perhaps the first Death Star was begun by the CIS and the second by the Empire or possibly even the Republic. 

[RogueCorona 1,043]

 

 

Why not? We're talking about a galaxy wide rebellion and you have a problem with them managing to assemble a starfighter factory.

 

Yes. The Rebellion was an insurgency. Their strength was mobility and distributed organization. They had to be constantly on the move from one base of operations to the next and divided into cells to avoid Imperial capture. A factory is nothing but a great big target that they can't protect. Having a vital logistical resource that can't be moved would be a huge handicap that they couldn't afford. That's why rebellions, insurgencies, resistance movements and terrorists always use scrounged together, out dated, surplus supplies. They don't have the infrastructure to make their own equipment, they have to steal it.

 

 

 

Trust me there have been rebellions throughout history that could manufacture equipment and hiding a starfighter factory in a setting like Star Wars would be much, much easier then hiding any kind of factory or shipyard on Earth.

 

Edit: It is also possible theoretically for the rebellion to create mobile factories for fighters and smaller equipment by installing the manufacturing hardware in a large freighter. I don't know that they did that but they might have.

 

 

 

They don't have anything on the scale of the Star Forge.

 

The problem is a matter of scale. Rebels hiding a fighter factory when both the rebels and the government are constrained to one planet would have a very hard time doing so. Hiding a fighter factory or shipyard when they have access to an entire solar system to choose from would be much easier. Hiding such an installation when you have much of a galaxy to choose from would be a piece of cake in comparison to either of the first two scenarios, especially in a setting whose FTL drive functions like the ones in Star Wars. The bigger the area the rebels have to hide their factories the easier it is for them to establish and hide such facilities. .

[Vigil 687]

The Star Forge thing was a joke. 

None-the-less, while it is perfectly plausible for the rebels to possess some rudimentary manufacturing capabilities, any fixed installation will be a problem. Sure, they can hide them in the deepest, darkest corners of the galaxy that the Empire would never imagine to look... but they're going to need raw materials or at the very least finished components. And that means freighters hauling materials or goods to the factory or final assembly facility. The more freighters involved, the easier it will be for the Empire to find a pattern, nail down the general vicinity of the manufactory, pin down the exact location through further scouting or subterfuge, and then destroy the facility. At which point the rebellion's warfighting ability will take a very, very significant hit. 

A mobile factory would be rather expensive and fairly vulnerable if discovered, but its mobility would reduce its likelihood of being discovered in the first place - and if it is discovered, it can run for hyperspace. The transports simply need to have a few pre-set locations for dropping off materials and components for the factory to pick up at a later time. 

The best (and by far the most expensive) option would be a vertically-integrated, automated facility that combines mining raw materials, manufacturing components and sub-components, and assembling the final product. It eliminates the possibility that the Empire can discover its location by tracking the movements of transports large enough to carry materiél and limits the exposure to smaller ships carrying pilots and astromechs (and maybe some food stuffs - with Tibanna gas, munitions, and perhaps some parts like cannons not being mounted or loaded until the ships reach their final destination). The easiest way to do that would be to repurpose a CIS droid factory - but the Empire probably knows where they are all located (there might be a couple completely unaccounted for in the chaos of the end of the Clone Wars). 

The best-best, absolutely most expensive option would be a mobile automated, vertically-integrated factory. But that would be basically a World Devastator. Maybe the CIS built some and maybe some of them went missing. I don't know. 

Manufacturing new starfighters from scratch is going to be difficult for the rebels to do, one way or the other. 

The simplest solution would be to covertly have ships built in ostensibly civilian starship factories and then militarize them later - most rebel ships in the old canon were repurposed civilian ships and surplus or captured military ships. X-Wings might be constructed in factories that normally produce Z-95s, for instance, and then are later equipped with military-grade weapons and shields and equipped with more powerful engines (likely alongside Z-95s and Y-Wings). In all likelihood, a good portion of the production line would be designated for civilian sales. Enough to give the factories plausible deniability, at least. 

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

If it were so easy for them to hide a factory, how come they couldn't hide a headquarters which requires less traffic in and out?

[jimmyrut 217]

So who feels Vader will have some epic duel with Ashoka at some stage?  Or perhaps she'll just vanish?  Maybe turn?  Just get shot out of the skies?

[RogueCorona 1,043]

The Star Forge thing was a joke. 

None-the-less, while it is perfectly plausible for the rebels to possess some rudimentary manufacturing capabilities, any fixed installation will be a problem. Sure, they can hide them in the deepest, darkest corners of the galaxy that the Empire would never imagine to look... but they're going to need raw materials or at the very least finished components. And that means freighters hauling materials or goods to the factory or final assembly facility. The more freighters involved, the easier it will be for the Empire to find a pattern, nail down the general vicinity of the manufactory, pin down the exact location through further scouting or subterfuge, and then destroy the facility. At which point the rebellion's warfighting ability will take a very, very significant hit. 

A mobile factory would be rather expensive and fairly vulnerable if discovered, but its mobility would reduce its likelihood of being discovered in the first place - and if it is discovered, it can run for hyperspace. The transports simply need to have a few pre-set locations for dropping off materials and components for the factory to pick up at a later time. 

The best (and by far the most expensive) option would be a vertically-integrated, automated facility that combines mining raw materials, manufacturing components and sub-components, and assembling the final product. It eliminates the possibility that the Empire can discover its location by tracking the movements of transports large enough to carry materiél and limits the exposure to smaller ships carrying pilots and astromechs (and maybe some food stuffs - with Tibanna gas, munitions, and perhaps some parts like cannons not being mounted or loaded until the ships reach their final destination). The easiest way to do that would be to repurpose a CIS droid factory - but the Empire probably knows where they are all located (there might be a couple completely unaccounted for in the chaos of the end of the Clone Wars). 

The best-best, absolutely most expensive option would be a mobile automated, vertically-integrated factory. But that would be basically a World Devastator. Maybe the CIS built some and maybe some of them went missing. I don't know. 

Manufacturing new starfighters from scratch is going to be difficult for the rebels to do, one way or the other. 

The simplest solution would be to covertly have ships built in ostensibly civilian starship factories and then militarize them later - most rebel ships in the old canon were repurposed civilian ships and surplus or captured military ships. X-Wings might be constructed in factories that normally produce Z-95s, for instance, and then are later equipped with military-grade weapons and shields and equipped with more powerful engines (likely alongside Z-95s and Y-Wings). In all likelihood, a good portion of the production line would be designated for civilian sales. Enough to give the factories plausible deniability, at least. 

 

 

The Old WEG Rebel Alliance sourcebook talks a little about Alliance fighter manufacture. one of the things it talks about is how they prefer to build the factories in locations where they can get the materials and parts manufactured either on site or at least nearby to minimize traffic that might draw Imperial attention, along with a warning that worlds that serve as manufacturing centers and are discovered by the Empire are likely to be carpet bombed.

 

The old CIS center idea is possible as well. The Essential Guide to Warfare talks about how the Intergalactic Banking Clan had a number of stations built outside the galaxy (Places like the Rebel rendezvous in ESB) and that a number of these were converted into shipyards for the CIS. If the rebels could locate one of these they would have a shipbuilding center which the Empire could pretty much only find by intercepting ships going to and from it, which wouldn't be easy. Tracking a few bulk freighters (Lets say two a week) isn't easy in a galaxy the size of Star Wars, especially if they follow even the most basic of evasive maneuvers to shake off pursuit.

[treybert 893]

So who feels Vader will have some epic duel with Ashoka at some stage?  Or perhaps she'll just vanish?  Maybe turn?  Just get shot out of the skies?

 

I'm fairly certain she recognized his presence so she will undoubtedly try to 'save' Vader. Whether or not she gets captured in the process, well that's another matter. I'm still hoping that Ashoka will be reborn as Starkiller, Vader's secret apprentice. 

[patox 2,020]

I am really torn about Season 2.

 

The preview episodes certainly up the intensity and are much more compelling to the hard core fan. I did enjoy it.

 

But it's definitely not as kid friendly. It's lost it's swashbuckling fun. Villages are burned down. Defecting people looking for sanctuary are killed. Rebel ships and their pilots destroyed. Not a whole lot of comic relief with anakin skywalker around.

[Sithborg 11,644]

Yeah, those burning skeletons of family members really killed the fun of Star Wars...

 

You just have to look at the preview for the third episode, with the Clones, to see that the fun is NOT gone from the series. And there was plenty of comic relief in these episodes. The key is balance. Which the premiere did wonderfully. 

[RogueCorona 1,043]

I am really torn about Season 2.

 

The preview episodes certainly up the intensity and are much more compelling to the hard core fan. I did enjoy it.

 

But it's definitely not as kid friendly. It's lost it's swashbuckling fun. Villages are burned down. Defecting people looking for sanctuary are killed. Rebel ships and their pilots destroyed. Not a whole lot of comic relief with anakin skywalker around.

 

 

By that logic no Star Wars movie has been kid friendly because they all show good side ships or vehicles being destroyed, good side soldiers killed, and often civilians and civilian settlements being targeted for destruction.

Edited June 24, 2015 by RogueCorona

[knott06 17]

Apparently, the A-wing we know and love from ROTJ is a redesigned version of the ship in this episode. At least according to the updated databank at sw.com:

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

 

I guess making the A-wing and B-wing older than the X-wing is one way to justify having the latter still flying so many years after ROTJ instead of what used to be thought of as the newer ships (i.e. the A and B) before the canon reset.

[Vigil 687]

 

So who feels Vader will have some epic duel with Ashoka at some stage?  Or perhaps she'll just vanish?  Maybe turn?  Just get shot out of the skies?

 

I'm fairly certain she recognized his presence so she will undoubtedly try to 'save' Vader. Whether or not she gets captured in the process, well that's another matter. I'm still hoping that Ashoka will be reborn as Starkiller, Vader's secret apprentice. 

 

 

"Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Although, to be fair, I don't think that Ahsoka had much of a choice on Mortis. 

 

Apparently, the A-wing we know and love from ROTJ is a redesigned version of the ship in this episode. At least according to the updated databank at sw.com:

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

 

I guess making the A-wing and B-wing older than the X-wing is one way to justify having the latter still flying so many years after ROTJ instead of what used to be thought of as the newer ships (i.e. the A and B) before the canon reset.

 

The X-Wing might be a Clone Wars-era prototype intended to supplement or supplant the ARC-170 that was binned during development due to the end of the Clone Wars and the different mission of the Imperial Navy. Simply dusted off and upgraded with more modern weapons, avionics, defensive systems, &c. Perhaps originally intended as a "Z-95B Super Headhunter". A bit like the B-1A Lancer and the B-1B (the latter designed to fly fast and low while the former was designed to fly fast and high - and shifting priorities led to the cancellation of the B-1A... and then priorities shifted again and the B-1B was born from dusting off the B-1A and repurposing it due to the shifting military capabilities of the Soviet Union). 

[RogueCorona 1,043]

Apparently, the A-wing we know and love from ROTJ is a redesigned version of the ship in this episode. At least according to the updated databank at sw.com:

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

 

I guess making the A-wing and B-wing older than the X-wing is one way to justify having the latter still flying so many years after ROTJ instead of what used to be thought of as the newer ships (i.e. the A and B) before the canon reset.

 

 

Well originally the A-Wing and B-Wing were pre-Alliance craft with both appearing in the Droids cartoon which was set 15 BBY. But when WEG got the RPG license they decided that both craft were first created by the Alliance so eventually the EU added older lookalike designs to explain the inconsistencies by making the Droids ships older designs that just looked like A-Wings and B-Wings and having the A-Wing lookalike be nicknamed A-Wing by rebel pilots who flew it.

 

The thing I have problems with is the idea some people have that the Empire never angered any starship designers or starship manufacturing companies enough for them to work for the Alliance. That and that idea that a fighter story or shipyard would be impossible to hide from the Empire.

 

Edit: Also the new databank is weird. For some reason there is no entry for the Nebulon-B despite them appearing in both the OT and the new canon novels and I believe the comics. I searched for it under everything from its class name to general terms like escort frigate, medical frigate, and even just frigate but nothing came up about it.

Edited June 24, 2015 by RogueCorona

[knott06 17]

 

Apparently, the A-wing we know and love from ROTJ is a redesigned version of the ship in this episode. At least according to the updated databank at sw.com:

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

 

I guess making the A-wing and B-wing older than the X-wing is one way to justify having the latter still flying so many years after ROTJ instead of what used to be thought of as the newer ships (i.e. the A and B) before the canon reset.

 

 

Well originally the A-Wing and B-Wing were pre-Alliance craft with both appearing in the Droids cartoon which was set 15 BBY. But when WEG got the RPG license they decided that both craft were first created by the Alliance so eventually the EU added older lookalike designs to explain the inconsistencies by making the Droids ships older designs that just looked like A-Wings and B-Wings and having the A-Wing lookalike be nicknamed A-Wing by rebel pilots who flew it.

 

The thing I have problems with is the idea some people have that the Empire never angered any starship designers or starship manufacturing companies enough for them to work for the Alliance. That and that idea that a fighter story or shipyard would be impossible to hide from the Empire.

 

Edit: Also the new databank is weird. For some reason there is no entry for the Nebulon-B despite them appearing in both the OT and the new canon novels and I believe the comics. I searched for it under everything from its class name to general terms like escort frigate, medical frigate, and even just frigate but nothing came up about it.

 

 

Amazing how much influence WEG had on so much background information. As for the Droids cartoons, I always attributed the Awing/Bwing being in it to the generally low quality/lack of concern for continuity seen in the 1980s Star Wars spinoff Ewok movies & Ewoks/Droids cartoons. I also assumed that even before the "reset" the Droid cartoons were made not canon because they conflict with what we see in the prequels about the droids.

 

Never fear, the Neb-B is in the new Ultimate Star Wars guide by DK! This guide conforms to the new continuity/canon. Interestingly, this guide chose to remain silent about the issue of whether A&B wings came before or after Xwings. The databank entry I linked above was only recently changed to conform to the new continuity. Before the latest Rebels episode came out, the databank too was silent on the issue.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

Legends are legends. The adventures depicted in Droids could have happened it may have been during a differnt time period and possibly different characters. 3Po and R2 were there so we could identify with the series. The old comics, novels and such could be treated the same too.

Anyway, WEG did have it of influence, although not intentionally. The source books just made for very handy reference material when authors and game designers didn't have the time or creativity to flesh out an entire galaxy for one story or game. That said, I think much of the material from WEG was good quality, especially the names of the alien species.

[RogueCorona 1,043]

Yeah don't get me wrong I love the WEG Star Wars RPG. It was literally the first table top RPG I ever played, has my favorite officially published campaign, and went into a lot of detail on stuff no other sources ever bothered covering like Alliance military training. (Fighter pilot training is covered i some of the PC games and a couple of novel but AFAIK only the WEG books go into any detail on Alliance Army and Naval officer training.)

[mikodz 6]

 

 

I never bought the story that the Rebels actually had the manufacturing capability to turn out X-wings on their own

 

And your are correct Sir BUT look below

 

Fighter/Warship production is easy, u give plans to some Company alongside a FAT JUICY pile'o'GOLD and they will churn out your fighters from their automated factories in no time, delivering to more or less unspecified location... All is legal, all is good, Empire officials take some Bribes and we are all a BIG HAPPY FAMILY !! 

 

The moral of this story - Greed is such a wonderful thing, SING WITH ME !!!!  ALLLLLL YOUUU NEEEED IS GOLLLDDDD LALALALALA......

Edited July 3, 2015 by mikodz

[zathras23 936]

"The apprentice lives..."

 

That line. 

 

*shivers*

 

 

Also Chopper slamming the doors shut on the stormtroopers was great. Chopper is the best. 

 

Kanan's response to not wanting to get involved in a war was interesting too.

Can't really blame Kanan for not wanting to get involved in another war after surviving the Clone Wars and seeing what had happened 15 years ago in Order 66. What I'm waiting to see is his reaction when he meets with the three former Clone Troopers Rex, Wolffe and Gregor. It was Clone Troopers who turned on and killed his mentor, Jedi Master Depa Billaba, and tried to hunt him down as well. I don't see the initial meeting going very well but their relationship does improve judging by what we've seen in the trailer for season 2.

Edited July 4, 2015 by zathras23

[Black Knight Leader 424]

Clearly the Rebels have access to the Star Forge. 

 

 

I never bought the story that the Rebels actually had the manufacturing capability to turn out X-wings on their own, even if the entire design team had defected. More than likely they aquired the fighters from surplus or local forces joining them. WEG seems to have wanted to make the X seem very special, when it was just a cool looking average fighter.

I get the real feeling that in Star Wars the difficulty is in prototype, research, and design. Actual manufacturing seems to be _incredibly_ easy. Look at the droid factory in (movie) Episode 2. It's able to churn out battle droids in a matter of minutes, and can continue doing so for as long as it has the raw materials.

The first Death Star took about 20 years to build- most of that was spent designing and prototyping. The second Death Star took roughly 3 years- they were able to take the existing plans and start building.

I'd say the reason the Rebellion has more difficulty with getting raw materials and pilots than it does actually finding space to manufacture their fighters.

 

Unless, of course, they started building the second Death Star not long after they began building the first - or perhaps the first Death Star was begun by the CIS and the second by the Empire or possibly even the Republic. 

 

its made pretty clear in the source books DS Mk. II construction starts after ANH.

[GrimmyV 7,421]

The 'death star' we see in Episode Three was the Seperatist 'ultimate weapon' that was never completed. The first actual Death Star we see in ANH is implied by Rebels that materials from Lothal and other worlds in the outer rim are being used to construct it on a scale of 5 or 6 years. The ROTJ DS II wasn't finished after 4 years, and it was roughly twice the volume of the original. Or so I can gather from sources over the decades.

[Vigil 687]

 

"The apprentice lives..."

 

That line. 

 

*shivers*

 

 

Also Chopper slamming the doors shut on the stormtroopers was great. Chopper is the best. 

 

Kanan's response to not wanting to get involved in a war was interesting too.

Can't really blame Kanan for not wanting to get involved in another war after surviving the Clone Wars and seeing what had happened 15 years ago in Order 66. What I'm waiting to see is his reaction when he meets with the three former Clone Troopers Rex, Wolffe and Gregor. It was Clone Troopers who turned on and killed his mentor, Jedi Master Depa Billaba, and tried to hunt him down as well. I don't see the initial meeting going very well but their relationship does improve judging by what we've seen in the trailer for season 2.

 

 

Wait, Gregor is still alive?

I want to jam out to "Vode An" now. 

 

 

Clearly the Rebels have access to the Star Forge. 

 

 

I never bought the story that the Rebels actually had the manufacturing capability to turn out X-wings on their own, even if the entire design team had defected. More than likely they aquired the fighters from surplus or local forces joining them. WEG seems to have wanted to make the X seem very special, when it was just a cool looking average fighter.

I get the real feeling that in Star Wars the difficulty is in prototype, research, and design. Actual manufacturing seems to be _incredibly_ easy. Look at the droid factory in (movie) Episode 2. It's able to churn out battle droids in a matter of minutes, and can continue doing so for as long as it has the raw materials.

The first Death Star took about 20 years to build- most of that was spent designing and prototyping. The second Death Star took roughly 3 years- they were able to take the existing plans and start building.

I'd say the reason the Rebellion has more difficulty with getting raw materials and pilots than it does actually finding space to manufacture their fighters.

 

Unless, of course, they started building the second Death Star not long after they began building the first - or perhaps the first Death Star was begun by the CIS and the second by the Empire or possibly even the Republic. 

 

its made pretty clear in the source books DS Mk. II construction starts after ANH.

 

Non-canon sourcebooks. 

[Sithborg 11,644]

Don't engage with him on canon arguements. Or even any arguements. 

[Vigil 687]

Don't engage with him on canon arguements. Or even any arguements. 

 

One of these days he'll post his sources. 

Or he'll shut up about it. 

...

Hey, I can hope, right? 

[Black Knight Leader 424]

 

 

"The apprentice lives..."

 

That line. 

 

*shivers*

 

 

Also Chopper slamming the doors shut on the stormtroopers was great. Chopper is the best. 

 

Kanan's response to not wanting to get involved in a war was interesting too.

Can't really blame Kanan for not wanting to get involved in another war after surviving the Clone Wars and seeing what had happened 15 years ago in Order 66. What I'm waiting to see is his reaction when he meets with the three former Clone Troopers Rex, Wolffe and Gregor. It was Clone Troopers who turned on and killed his mentor, Jedi Master Depa Billaba, and tried to hunt him down as well. I don't see the initial meeting going very well but their relationship does improve judging by what we've seen in the trailer for season 2.

 

 

Wait, Gregor is still alive?

I want to jam out to "Vode An" now. 

 

 

Clearly the Rebels have access to the Star Forge. 

 

 

I never bought the story that the Rebels actually had the manufacturing capability to turn out X-wings on their own, even if the entire design team had defected. More than likely they aquired the fighters from surplus or local forces joining them. WEG seems to have wanted to make the X seem very special, when it was just a cool looking average fighter.

I get the real feeling that in Star Wars the difficulty is in prototype, research, and design. Actual manufacturing seems to be _incredibly_ easy. Look at the droid factory in (movie) Episode 2. It's able to churn out battle droids in a matter of minutes, and can continue doing so for as long as it has the raw materials.

The first Death Star took about 20 years to build- most of that was spent designing and prototyping. The second Death Star took roughly 3 years- they were able to take the existing plans and start building.

I'd say the reason the Rebellion has more difficulty with getting raw materials and pilots than it does actually finding space to manufacture their fighters.

 

Unless, of course, they started building the second Death Star not long after they began building the first - or perhaps the first Death Star was begun by the CIS and the second by the Empire or possibly even the Republic. 

 

its made pretty clear in the source books DS Mk. II construction starts after ANH.

 

Non-canon sourcebooks. 

 

 

All my sourcebooks are canon. 

 

 

Don't engage with him on canon arguements. Or even any arguements. 

 

One of these days he'll post his sources. 

Or he'll shut up about it. 

...

Hey, I can hope, right? 

 

 

Just look up what I told you too look up.   All your answeres are there.  I am not going to shut up about information thats canonical fact.