Treebeard hero + Song of mocking

[Jban 59]

Hi all,

 

I've read some threads on this discussion but it was not clear to me, so therefore this new topic with some more related questions.

 

Made a new deck lately in which I pull of the Song of Mocking alongside with Treebeard hero. Main motivations for doing this is keeping Treebeard alive and some heroes for benefiting on some damage (Gloin, Gimli).

 

Question 1, If you use Treebeard his action while Song of Mocking is active on him, does he still get the Willpower and Attack boost?

 

Answer 1, Since Treebeard never got any damage dealt, he cannot receive the boost.

 

 

Question 2, Because the Action starts, with  "deal 1 damage to Treebeard", I was wondering if I could actually trigger this action. Since it is impossible to deal any damage to Treebeard (because of the song), can I actually trigger this action to transfer the damage to Gloin?

 

Answer 2, No Clue

 

Question 3, Suppose the answer to Question 2 is "Yes", The Action clearly says "Deal 1 damage to Treebeard to give him [boost]". Since you are not giving him the boost, does this damage dealt still count toward the "limit 5 times per phase" ?

 

Answer 3, I guess so.

 

It's not entirely clear, because by playing the action you immediately deal the damage, but by song of mocking the damage is assigned to another hero. Also sending this to the developers, answers soon I hope.

 

 

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I'd say

 

1) he does not get the willpower boost, for the reason you cited above,

 

2) you can trigger it, because 'dealing damage' might be made up of two steps, 'assigning' and then 'dealing' damage (putting on damage tokens).  In the case of Archery, you assign each point of Archery damage (and cannot assign damage past a character's remaining hit points), then deal all points of damage simultaneously (so you can assign damage to multiple Silvan Refugees).  If we are able to use the same reasoning here, you can assign damage to Treebeard when you trigger the action, although you never actually deal it, since Song of Mocking whisks it away.

 

3) I think limits apply to triggering the action, not to their effect.  So you are limited to triggering the action 5 times per phase (not limited to getting +5 willpower per phase).  So triggering the effect, even if it does not damage Treebeard, will still contribute to the 5x limit.

[PocketWraith 553]

I agree. Even though Treebeard doesn't get his boost, that's a pretty neat combination, allowing you to trigger Gloin for up to 5 resources at will rather than needing to take undefended attacks and similar to get the damage.

[JanB 85]

2) I don't think you can trigger his action if you do not deal any damage to Treebard. The cost is dealing .. not assigning.

[DukeWellington 312]

I think GrandSpleen is correct in all details. I do think you can trigger his action (in disagreement with JanB). Triggering an action is when you pay the cost. Resolving the action is when you apply the effect. You trigger the action and pay the cost, which is dealing damage. Then a second condition (song of mocking) interrupts the process at that point and prevents the resolution (so Treebeard does not get his Stat boost). Song of mocking does not prevent you from triggering the ability in the first place; that wouldn't even make sense.

[JanB 85]

mm, ok.. so after a shadowcard is revealed you can deal Erkenbrand one damage ... use Song of Mocking to deal the damage for example to Gloin instead ... and not cancel the shadowcardeffect? 

Edited June 17, 2015 by JanB

[PocketWraith 553]

Yes, I'm pretty sure that would work.

Edited June 17, 2015 by PocketWraith

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Seems legit.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

An encounter card might say "Players cannot lower discard cards," or something.  Then you couldn't trigger an effect that like Eowyn... but Song of Mocking isn't a "cannot" effect.  The damage in these cases still happens... but then something happens to it.  So it's not a good parallel.

 

We'll have to see what the official answer is!

[Jban 59]

Reply from Caleb,

 

You can use Song of Mocking to trigger Treebeard’s effect and assign the damage to another hero, but the limit 5 times per phase does still apply.

Cheers,

Caleb

 

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Ohhhh, NOW I get it.  There is a "Jban" and a "JanB" and BOTH use Bilbo-flippin'-Baggins avatars.

 

Man that has been confusing me!

[Mndela 422]

^^

 

Jban - nabJ

Edited June 18, 2015 by Mndela

[Jban 59]

I’m writing back to correct my previous answer to your rules question regarding Treebeard and Song of Mocking. I’m afraid I didn’t read Song of Mocking closely enough the first time. Song of Mocking is a replacement effect because it uses the word “instead.” Instead of putting damage on Treebeard, you put damage on the hero with Song of Mocking attached. As a result, you never actually damage Treebeard, which means you never paid the cost for his effect. As a result, you cannot use Song of Mocking to redirect the damage for Treebeard’s effect.

I’m sorry I answered that incorrectly the first time.

Cheers,

Caleb

[Teamjimby 630]

So you can't use the ability at all?  Even if you just want to damage Gloin with no benefit to Treebeard?

[Seastan 1,324]

So you can't use the ability at all?  Even if you just want to damage Gloin with no benefit to Treebeard?

 

Instead of putting damage on Treebeard, you put damage on the hero with Song of Mocking attached. 

 

Still a method for getting damage on Gloin or Gimli at will, but not nearly as good. I find the ruling makes sense to me, but Caleb's focus on the word "instead" doesn't. Even if Song of Mocking said "After damage has been dealt to another hero, cancel that damage and deal an equal amount of damage to a hero with the Song attached" it still wouldn't work because the damage got cancelled, as we see with the Erkenbrand/Wing helm ruling. They are basically saying with all these "Deal X damage to" effects that if you don't visibly see damage counters on the card after you're done, it doesn't work. It's a fair ruling, but I think ruling the opposite way would have also been fair and at the same time opened up more card combination possibilities. I love it when new cards make old, unused cards suddenly useful, but I guess today is not the day.

[DukeWellington 312]

I’m writing back to correct my previous answer to your rules question regarding Treebeard and Song of Mocking. I’m afraid I didn’t read Song of Mocking closely enough the first time. Song of Mocking is a replacement effect because it uses the word “instead.” Instead of putting damage on Treebeard, you put damage on the hero with Song of Mocking attached. As a result, you never actually damage Treebeard, which means you never paid the cost for his effect. As a result, you cannot use Song of Mocking to redirect the damage for Treebeard’s effect.

I’m sorry I answered that incorrectly the first time.

Cheers,

Caleb

With all due respect, that answer makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that answer adds to the conversation is confusion.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Yeah I don't understand the last sentence -- "cannot use Song of Mocking to redirect the damage for Treebeard's effect."  I feel like the basic question hasn't been answered.  Does that sentence mean you can't trigger the effect at all (as Teamjimby asked) or that you can redirect the damage, but can't benefit from it (which was my original thought in my first reply to this thread)?

Edited July 10, 2015 by GrandSpleen

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

deleted, bleh sorry for confusion

Edited July 10, 2015 by GrandSpleen

[Jban 59]

I guess this confirms my first thoughts on the topic, but this wasn't a clarifying reply to me.

 

- No boosts.

- Able to deal damage.

- Limit 5.

[Seastan 1,324]

Song of Mocking is a replacement effect because it uses the word “instead.” 

 

Am I blind, or does Song of Mocking not actually use this word?

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Exhaust Song of Mocking to choose another hero.  Until the end of the phase, attached hero takes all damage assigned to the chosen hero.

 

"Instead."  It's right there.  Dunno how you could miss that, clear as day.

[JTG81 21]

He was probably reading off the errata'd song of mocking

[Jban 59]

I contacted Caleb once more to get this clear.

 

Question 1, If you use Treebeard his action while Song of Mocking is active on him, does he still get the Willpower and Attack boost?

 

Question 2, Because the Action starts, with  "deal 1 damage to Treebeard", I was wondering if I could actually trigger this action. Since it is impossible to deal any damage to Treebeard (because of Song of Mocking), can I actually trigger this action to transfer the damage to Gloin?

 

I’m sorry for the confusion. You are correct that Song of Mocking does not use the word “instead” - I can’t explain why I thought that it did.

Let me answer your questions (without making up new game text for old cards this time):

Question #1 - Treebeard does not get his willpower or attack bonus from his Action effect unless damage is actually placed on him.

Question #2 - You can trigger the action (up to 5 times) and redirect the damage to Gloin with Song of Mocking.

The way this works is that you trigger Treebeard’s Action, but when you place the damage Song of Mocking redirects it to Gloin. Which means it is never placed on Treebeard, and his effect does not resolve. In essence, you trigger Treebeard’s effect and then cancel it by placing 1 damage on Gloin instead.

Cheers,

Caleb

 

 

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

yay for resolution

[Mndela 422]

Good job jban.