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KineticOperator

Worlds X-Wing Registration, NOT OK, not at all

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Not to mention that limiting the tournament would actually cut down the number of people and therefore the number of rounds, thus making it MORE likely that luck would play a role in the outcome.

 

This - basic game theory / probability: the more rounds you have, the less of an effect luck has on the outcome. It's one of the reasons that I favor more rounds (with extended byes) vs less rounds and a smaller cut like FFG has decided on.

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And . . . I'm sorry, Worlds doesn't have a "proving yourself aspect?" If you can make the cut, that means you're one of the best 32 (or 16?) X-Wing players IN THE WORLD, 

No need to apologize to show a differing opinion, but to clarify: This game does have variance and there can be lots of unmeasurable things that can effect a single event.  Winning several events shows consistency.  While unlikely, as stated previously, some weird results can happen if your standing is limited to a single event.  I don't know about other competitive board gaming communities, but most events that claim "World Champion determined here!" usually have some sort of qualifier attached to it.  Right?  

 

Though, the bigger issue is that it will raise the stakes at the smaller events, which may negatively affect the competitive side of X-Wing.  

 

But, at least FFG doesn't have to say "sorry, you arbitrarily can't attend" they can say "you didn't qualify."  

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Yes, X-wing is cheap, but it's also an exploitive distribution model that forces people into buying $15 models to get a $0.03 card. 

 

I honestly hate this argument. You are under no compulsion to purchase anything to play the game other than the Core Set. Anything outside of that is a choice you make the play the game the way you want to play it. Nobody compels you to play the game competitively - that is a choice as well. 

 

This argument may theoretically be true, but it also doesn't apply only to X-wing.  Nothing stops anyone from playing 40K with nothing but a 2-player starter box and skirmishes, or proxying models with empty bases and yellow stickies.  And it has almost as much longevity as the 1 X-wing vs. 2 TIE Fighter repetitiveness that you get with nothing but the X-wing core set.

 

If you're going to make a statement about X-wing being cheaper than another game (which is what I was responding to) you don't get to cut corners with one but not the other.  Play it as it's fully intended, with no proxying or replacements allowed, and the actual game cost becomes highly variable.  A 4B list with Advanced Sensors costs $120, or $180 during the Wave 3 era.  I'd be willing to bet the average cost for C-3PO runs around $60 for the one card, considering the amount of epic play I actually see vs. the number of Fat Falcons I see.  Even small-count lists like twin IG-88s are $60 worth of ship and another $100 worth of cards.

 

Yes, X-wing CAN be played cheaper, just like any game CAN be played cheaper.  Nobody forces you to buy any piece of any game.  If you're going to compare them, do it on a level playing field.  For that, X-wing is indeed cheaper than something like full-blown 40K or most Warmachine armies.  But there are a number of cheaper miniatures games out there, and it's not a CHEAP game by any definition.

 

The other way to look at it, of course, is that being able to circumvent the distribution model does not make it any less exploitive.

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Yeah, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.  I didn't miss any of your post, but to me, "horrible" is a pretty strong word goes hand in hand with "unacceptable under any circumstances" and then made an assumption about your meaning.  To me, if something has a horrible aspect, it gets dropped/abandoned and I can no longer to afford spending time at it.   

Then that's you.  I manage to enjoy the enjoyable parts of the game despite the horrible parts.  Since your original question was why I stuck around, I'm what there is for us to disagree about.  Your opinion on what you consider unacceptable under any circumstances is utterly irrelevant to why I keep playing that game.

 

Regarding the exploitive X-wing model...I disagree about the value of the cards, even if that's the only thing you want out of the pack.  The card would be worth $0.03 if it were blank or had some non-descript design on it, but considering it has art as well as rules/content that required people and time to develop, I'd say they are worth a lot more than $0.03. 

 

We actually have some decent benchmarks for this.

 

FFG releases packs for their LCGs on a monthly cycle, typically with 20 unique cards for $15.  If we completely ignore printing, packaging, and shipping, that puts production costs around $0.75 per card.  For games with a massively larger card pool, which means more intensity of development and testing.  Art also doesn't really hold water - the vast majority of images for FFG's Star Wars games have seen 4-5 uses, between the RPG, LCG, IA, Armada, and other minor products.  Something like the LOTR LCG or Netrunner doesn't get that luxury, although Call of Cthulhu comes close.

 

And on top of it all, the LCG packs are intentionally designed to be single purchase, which means the per-unit development cost is higher than something where you expect a customer to buy multiples.

 

So even if we're pretty generous, card cost (including development) is a very small portion of the overall cost.

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FFG releases packs for their LCGs on a monthly cycle, typically with 20 unique cards for $15.  If we completely ignore printing, packaging, and shipping, that puts production costs around $0.75 per card.  For games with a massively larger card pool, which means more intensity of development and testing.  Art also doesn't really hold water - the vast majority of images for FFG's Star Wars games have seen 4-5 uses, between the RPG, LCG, IA, Armada, and other minor products.  Something like the LOTR LCG or Netrunner doesn't get that luxury, although Call of Cthulhu comes close.

 

And on top of it all, the LCG packs are intentionally designed to be single purchase, which means the per-unit development cost is higher than something where you expect a customer to buy multiples.

 

So even if we're pretty generous, card cost (including development) is a very small portion of the overall cost.

 

 

So would LCG's be "exploitative" too if let's say you need another copy of a certain card from a pack and you have to buy the entire 20 card pack for $15 and throw away the other 19 cards?  Should FFG be selling their LCG cards separately too?

 

If your answer is "yes" to the above (FFG is also exploitative with LCG games), then sure, at least you're consistent in your complaint.  But I think the reason why many people disagree with you is the fact that FFG came around with the LCG format instead of the CCG format where a card can cost hundreds of dollars because of the "random packs".  It's different levels of exploitation, it's just we draw the line a little more generously than you. :)

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I heard the worlds weekend was capped at 250 for all events COMBINED...

that doesn't soundright to me...a total of 250 people are going to worlds weekend when there are games that could easily hold 128+ each (x-wing, Netrunner, etc)

please tell me this is wrong.

 

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So would LCG's be "exploitative" too if let's say you need another copy of a certain card from a pack and you have to buy the entire 20 card pack for $15 and throw away the other 19 cards?  Should FFG be selling their LCG cards separately too?

 

If your answer is "yes" to the above (FFG is also exploitative with LCG games), then sure, at least you're consistent in your complaint.  But I think the reason why many people disagree with you is the fact that FFG came around with the LCG format instead of the CCG format where a card can cost hundreds of dollars because of the "random packs".  It's different levels of exploitation, it's just we draw the line a little more generously than you. :)

 

Actually yes, I think they are.  The baseline for expansions aren't too bad as long as you only ever want to put one deck together, or don't want any overlap in the decks you do.  But if you do, even for a single card, you're going to end up paying $15 for that one card.  It can be worse with cards in the core sets or large expansions.  Most of the core sets force you to buy three to get a play set from them, and include plenty of trash along with it.  This is also why every one of the LCGs include as many factions as they can cram in - being able to buy just for the faction you want goes against the model.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not as bad as the insanity that is collectible games, but it's mostly a matter of degree.  FFG manages to accomplish much the same purpose, and they've gotten very good at forcing you to buy a bunch of stuff you don't want to get what you do, which is really exactly what the CCG model does.  There's an upper limit that keeps the "rares" from getting crazy expensive, but try and find a spare three copies for Steward of Gondor sometime.

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Perhaps the put X wing on Wednesday BECAUSE it's the flagship game they have going for them? That way, it would entice crowds to play more than one game at worlds for a paltry $10 per entry thus committing more players to more games to make FFG more $$. It could be a good plan, had they anticipated the sheer demand X wing would have on the Wirkd tournament as a whole and made room for a bigger tournament.

I went to Worlds for the first time last year and I remember thinking "this game and others are just getting bigger, there is no way they'll fit all of this into the game canter next year." Looks like I was right?

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Actually yes, I think they are.  The baseline for expansions aren't too bad as long as you only ever want to put one deck together, or don't want any overlap in the decks you do.  But if you do, even for a single card, you're going to end up paying $15 for that one card.  It can be worse with cards in the core sets or large expansions.  Most of the core sets force you to buy three to get a play set from them, and include plenty of trash along with it.  This is also why every one of the LCGs include as many factions as they can cram in - being able to buy just for the faction you want goes against the model.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not as bad as the insanity that is collectible games, but it's mostly a matter of degree.  FFG manages to accomplish much the same purpose, and they've gotten very good at forcing you to buy a bunch of stuff you don't want to get what you do, which is really exactly what the CCG model does.  There's an upper limit that keeps the "rares" from getting crazy expensive, but try and find a spare three copies for Steward of Gondor sometime.

 

 

Cool, then I think we have a good understanding. It's just a difference of opinion with respect to the matter of degree. :)

 

The reason I don't feel that way is because:

1. I come from 40K - enough said :P

2. I actually don't buy ships for the cards.  Yes, I never needed more than 2 engine upgrades (I have 1 falcon), I have 2 predators (and rarely use more than 1) because I love defenders, and I have 4 autothrusters because I like flying 2 PS1 Vipers in casual lists.  I have WAY too many Advanced Sensors because I love the shuttle and E-Wing.  :P

3. Any of the cards I *need*, I can borrow from all the friends I play with.  People here don't even blink an eye if you borrow a card for the big tournaments (Store Champs and above).  for local tournaments, sometimes we don't even pull our cards out completely or just proxy them.

 

So ultimately, unless one is trying to build some crazier lists, the only card that you're "forced" to spend a lot to get are the things from the epic ships (C3PO, R2D2, new TIE Advanced title/fix, etc.... In that case, yes, it does kind of suck that you need to buy those models to get the cards, but *most* people do like the ships (and the ships are costed reasonably for their size and the stuff that comes with it) and will buy them anyways.  I plan to get a Raider anyways, so the TIE Advanced stuff comes "free".  I didn't get any Rebel epic ships (those scum!) because I don't like the looks, but was lucky to buy the cards from friends who had 2 of each ship.  But yes, you have a point on those types of cards. :)

Edited by kryzak

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Well guys, I am a bit devastated.

 

I have received what seems to be like an official answer in my mailbox saying that there is not going to be more flights or seats availability for X-Wing. The reason is basically cause there are too many other events to change the schedule at this point.

This, and the fact that this answer took two days to get in to my mailbox leads me to think that they really have thought about taking actions, but they have finally rejected that idea.

 

As I said, is a bit devastating, I was really trusting FFG to make the World's a real World's and not just "A big Championship in our HQ".

I keep having a seat for SW LCG and Imperial Assault (my colleagues from Spain are in the same situation), but I do not enjoy those games as X-Wing (and why not, let's say it, I am pretty much a better player ;-P)

 

So with all these, I really have to think about asking for a refund in the plane tickets and the FFG tickets, it is a huge expenditure for me (and all my group) to do not enjoy it at 100%, what involves X-Wing. On the other hand, I really want to have the chance to meet most of you there, to share the experience and exchange laser shots and show you how do we play in Spain  :rolleyes:

 

Thanks to all of you who have empathized and back us. I will let you know what the group decides and if we are finally attending and cannot get into X-Wing, it would be lovely to have some time to at least play some games outter the "official".

 

Cheers

Edited by PuZzLeCiTo

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Sorry to hear about the negative reply PuZzLeCiTo.  I hope you will still make it but completely understand the expense to travel all the way to the US for games you don't love.  If you do come, I look forward to playing some games against you!

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So ultimately, unless one is trying to build some crazier lists, the only card that you're "forced" to spend a lot to get are the things from the epic ships (C3PO, R2D2, new TIE Advanced title/fix, etc.... In that case, yes, it does kind of suck that you need to buy those models to get the cards, but *most* people do like the ships (and the ships are costed reasonably for their size and the stuff that comes with it) and will buy them anyways.  I plan to get a Raider anyways, so the TIE Advanced stuff comes "free".  I didn't get any Rebel epic ships (those scum!) because I don't like the looks, but was lucky to buy the cards from friends who had 2 of each ship.  But yes, you have a point on those types of cards. :)

If you're fine with it, then that's perfectly OK.  I've got a ton of everything myself, although until the E-wing hit I just swore off more than two Advanced Sensors.

 

But here's an interesting question to consider... is it realistic to think you could collect only a single faction in X-wing?  This about the number of cards that only appear in one ship, that are totally unavailable anywhere else.  Engine Upgrade on a Decimator?  Buy a Falcon.  Autothrusters on Fel?  Time to pick up Scum.  Stealth Device for Tycho?  Yep, you guessed it - and only from big ships at that.

 

This is one of the more core tricks of the LCG model - it's effectively impossible to segment your purchases based on something like a faction split.  Even 40K doesn't make you buy a bunch of Orks if you want to play Tau.  Well, unless you're talking about FFG's presentation of it.

 

It's also not limited to miniatures or the LCGs.  They even do it with their RPGs.  Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny have something around 75% repeated information, probably more.  But they're separate games, so you get to buy those same rules 3 times at $60 a pop.  Yes, sure, easier for the player, contained experience, yadda yadda...  Pure BS.

 

<shrug>  FFG makes some pretty good games, but there's very little about them as a company that's actually admirable.

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Yea they only make the cheapest, highest-quality, fastest-growing and most balanced miniature war game in the world. Get it together, FFG!

I'm sure the consequences of doing World's this way weren't fully processed. They may not change it this year but they won't do it again. A separate World's for Star Wars games would be the obvious solution.

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Surely if its a proper 'world championship' of anything you need to really host the event at a different nation every so often.

 

I mean *realistically* very few people are going to spend £800 on flights and more on accommodation to play a wargames tournament.

 

I used to run GWs tourneys and campaigns for years so I know some do but for example at a warhammer GT 10 per cent of the players at the most would be from outside the UK.

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Surely if its a proper 'world championship' of anything you need to really host the event at a different nation every so often.

 

I mean *realistically* very few people are going to spend £800 on flights and more on accommodation to play a wargames tournament.

 

I used to run GWs tourneys and campaigns for years so I know some do but for example at a warhammer GT 10 per cent of the players at the most would be from outside the UK.

 

It's their game, I don't see a problem with hosting it at (or near) their HQ. It is already expensive enough to pack up their entire staff to go to Gen Con. Plus you have to now pay for shipping to bring product to sell through customs. Big hassle.

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No but thats not the point. What im saying is that in reality its the 'us championship' isnt it?

 

To be a 'world' champion ship in any meaningful way you'd have to have national champions from around 'the world' and then have the winning two or three from those events compete at a site that any participating nation could use to host it.

 

Like the olympics or world cup in football you know?

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No but thats not the point. What im saying is that in reality its the 'us championship' isnt it?

 

To be a 'world' champion ship in any meaningful way you'd have to have national champions from around 'the world' and then have the winning two or three from those events compete at a site that any participating nation could use to host it.

 

Like the olympics or world cup in football you know?

 

Though I see your point in general, I disagree that it is necessary to move locations to be a world championship as long as the site location has some special reason to be the year on year choice.  It can go to a special host location, as long as people from around the world (especially champions) are brought to play.  In this case, FFG headquarters is significant enough that it makes sense for it to be held there.

 

On the other hand, the way this was handled from an event planning standpoint turns the entire thing into a US championship.  As our Spanish contingent has noted, being unable to adequately plan ahead due to limited space makes it expensive and difficult for international players to attend.  A pre-registration process that allows players to guarantee a spot by reserving before final venue plans are made would eliminate this problem.  A properly planned event would have pre-registration to get a reasonably good idea of overall event needs, followed by a period of time (give it a month) to arrange an appropriate venue.  Pre-registration would allow you to guarantee a spot, and after arranging the venue you then have early registration for the remaining "open" spots (determined by the choice of venue).  People who waited for early registration may or may not have a spot, depending on how accurately the organizers estimated overall interest.  Finally, you could have walk-in or open registration during the event, where unused slots and no show slots could be filled by people on a first-come first-serve basis.

 

This isn't rocket science.  A certain highly placed individual's obsession with shortening the X-Wing event rather than understanding his customers and expanding the event is a large part of the problem.  The enormous incompetence of the OP program (which I suspect strongly has more to do with the OP guys having insufficient autonomy to do their jobs rather than actual incompetence on their part) contributes to the problem.  Does anyone know of another large event with a key "prime time" feature that pushes that feature to the smallest time frame at the BEGINNING?  There is a reason smaller bands open for the named bands, and the main event is the last one on the fight card.  There is also a reason X-Wing OP kits have deck-boxes as if they were a LCG.

 

As alluded to earlier, direct marketing of this magnitude is nearly priceless.  Just generating the contact list for paid marketing would cost a fortune.  In this case, FFG not only doesn't need to spend any money those customers are paying for the privilege of concentrating themselves in a single location where they can be marketed through displays of upcoming product, conversations with the development team, meeting other players (especially the well known ones), and generally having their excitement and anticipation stoked while they are a captive audience.  Moreover, this is an opportunity to have an event of such scale that it could generate secondary coverage through media reports.  An on-the-ball communications department would have as big an event as possible, push it's international nature, and contact local media in a bid to get news coverage.

 

Instead of all this extraordinarily valuable exposure being generated for free (or even better, at a profit), we have an organization who misunderstands their product so dramatically they are pushing it to the shortest possible time frame, in the worst time slot, at a size woefully inadequate to address the demand.  In the process, they are instead generating negative buzz, and diminishing the effect of their earlier marketing efforts (Store and Regional Championships) by turning their momentum into disappointment.

 

As for space, the FFG center has plenty of space especially over a 5 day period.  If more space was needed, the annex could easily host a second flight, the warehouse could be used, or any of the nearby hotels could be tapped.  I love FFG in general, but their ability to adapt to success has been terrible from day one, and it hasn't improved.  It has been reactive, successively underestimating and misunderstanding their own customers/product.  At some point, demographic analysis and data analysis to get ahead of the wave needs to take the place of running around putting out fires.

 

PPPPPP.   Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Edited by KineticOperator

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If you're fine with it, then that's perfectly OK.  I've got a ton of everything myself, although until the E-wing hit I just swore off more than two Advanced Sensors.

 

But here's an interesting question to consider... is it realistic to think you could collect only a single faction in X-wing?  This about the number of cards that only appear in one ship, that are totally unavailable anywhere else.  Engine Upgrade on a Decimator?  Buy a Falcon.  Autothrusters on Fel?  Time to pick up Scum.  Stealth Device for Tycho?  Yep, you guessed it - and only from big ships at that.

 

This is one of the more core tricks of the LCG model - it's effectively impossible to segment your purchases based on something like a faction split.  Even 40K doesn't make you buy a bunch of Orks if you want to play Tau.  Well, unless you're talking about FFG's presentation of it.

 

It's also not limited to miniatures or the LCGs.  They even do it with their RPGs.  Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny have something around 75% repeated information, probably more.  But they're separate games, so you get to buy those same rules 3 times at $60 a pop.  Yes, sure, easier for the player, contained experience, yadda yadda...  Pure BS.

 

<shrug>  FFG makes some pretty good games, but there's very little about them as a company that's actually admirable.

 

 

Again, around our area, that's not a problem at all.  Quite a few new players these days who don't have Autothrusters because they don't own any scum, but they just use it in their lists or I lend them mine (for Regionals).  It really is not an issue at all around here.  But yes, if you're the type that refuses to use proxies or borrow other people's cards, you do need to buy cross faction.  It's just not an issue for me or the multiple leagues/stores I play at. 

 

As for 40K, yes, you don't ever have to buy another model from another army, but let's not even get started with GW.  My entire X-Wing collection (with at least 2 of every small ship and 1 of every ship except for Epic) cost less than my ONE 40K army, bought USED.  So in an objective "total cost" way, I'm totally fine with buying all three factions or buying 1 of every ship that comes out.  Why?  Because I like playing different factions and learning how to fly all the ships.  It's something  cannot do financially with 40K or Warmachine and other miniatures games.  FFG's pricing and low cost allows me to do that, and I thank them for it.

 

Besides some stupid mistakes on FFG's organized play part, the company has been a good example of what successful miniatures game companies should be.  They care about the customers, they sell things at a good price and provide good value, and their designers put thought into the game (yes, one can complain about the current meta, but again, most other miniatures games have terrible terrible power imbalances - see Attack Wing or 40K).  So like others before, we have to agree to disagree, and I hope that whatever is fun about X-Wing that keeps you playing, despite your dislike of FFG's business practices, keeps you playing the game. :)

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To be a 'world' champion ship in any meaningful way you'd have to have national champions from around 'the world' and then have the winning two or three from those events compete at a site that any participating nation could use to host it.

 

 

 

I thought FFG flew in the national champs?   

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I know that FFG has back peddled before, but for Worlds I don't think this is going to happen. Last year the Division 1 Regionals in the Pacific Northwest was terrible in terms of locations, and I think they had the lowest turnout because of it. With schedule already posted and with all the other games jockeying for space I don't think we are going to see any change. This pisses me off, but I've done what I can to change things. I can hope that they add slots but I'm not going to hold my breath on that. What I can do is voice my displeasure and hope that they think a little bit about how they want to do Worlds for next year.  As KO has pointed out there is SO MANY things that they could have done better.

 

For those of you who do go I think it would be nice for you to be the voices of your friends who couldn't make it because of this crap registration process. Getting emails from us is a start, hearing it directly from the players I think will hit home the point.

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I hope to see something from FFG acknowledging that they bungled this event and layout a plan for how things will be better moving forward.  I don't expect there to be a change this year but who knows.

 

I wish FFG would acknowledge Xwing for what it is, their premier product and treat it as such.  Rather they are trying to leverage the games popularity into a marketing ploy for their other products.  It started last year with their limited coverage of the Xwing tournament to showcase lesser games on their livestream and continues into this year with the scheduling and slotting of what should be the showcase of Worlds, the Xwing tournament.  I really don't like the thinly veiled manipulation of their customer base.  They are playing with fire and need to start doing things right.

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