Triangulation

[Gibbobobo 44]

Personally I think the rules aren't clear. With the rules reference we are clearly told it's ok to premeasure but the the tournament rules come along and sudden make everything a bit murky.

I'm presuming they were added to stop intensional slow play and abuse but they haven't very clearly defined what is and isn't allowed.

We know we can't use multiple rulers or tools at the same time, weather you can use a one of each at the same time I think is still a bit of a grey area depending on how you choose to interpret the rule.

I guess as long as both players agree what they are happy with each other pre measuring at the start then everything is fine.

As a TO my problem is what might be ok to one player might not be with another and I need clear precise rules to be able to back up any decisions I make.

[Gibbobobo 44]

Sent an email to FFG and asked to clarify exactly what is and isn't allowed. I'll post the reply here when it comes back.

[Green Knight 9,746]

Sent an email to FFG and asked to clarify exactly what is and isn't allowed. I'll post the reply here when it comes back.

 

Good man.

[OpticFusion 53]

The rule is clear, it's intent is clear. Don't try and game the system. In X-Wing there is fly casual. The same can be applied here. Lets have fun and win by playing a good game not trying to "technically not cheating".

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Yeah that is not a tenable way to run a game

[Madaghmire 7,276]

I'm of two minds on this. I've played with people who take a day and a half to measure, and people who can do a couple quick measurements and keep the game moving. At least in casual games, I don't mind some quick measurments from a player trying to avoid an obviously stupid navigational error. In tournaments however, we should have a clear rule on what is and isn't kosher, and just like legislation that rule should be written without room for wrigglers. Because on every tournament scene there are those players who will try to squeeze every last drop out of what the the rules technically allow. I look forward to hearing FFG's reply, although I think its relatively clear already that they don't want you using any method of marking off measurement.

[Spellbound 27]

The tournament rules don't just mention triangulation.  They also say you can't measure beyond the range of a single measuring tool.  So if you put the range ruler down, put your finger there (or memorize its position), then put the same "ONE single ruler!" down at that spot to measure further, you are now measuring beyond the distance of a single range ruler - regardless of how many rulers you are using, method of marking on the board, what have you.

 

 

Now, technically, you can put the ruler on your ship to see how far something is - then put the ruler on THEIR ship, and see how far out it goes.  But then you're triangulating, I suppose, so I think that's also against the spirit of the rules (but not the letter, as you're measuring two completely different things).

[Gibbobobo 44]

But as I said the rules say you can't use multiple rulers to do various things, it doesn't say you can't do it with a single ruler.

While that might not of been the intent with the rule it just isn't clear which is my main issue.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

I think it becomes a problem when you use more than one tool to measure distances.

Putting a finger down? That is enabling you to precisely use a second tool to measure from the first. This isn't significantly different enough, imo, to say that it is not triangulation.

Using your memory? In my experience, that's pretty imprecise. Some people will be better than others, but you are not using tools to bridge the gap between two rulers, so I think that makes the distinction enough.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Am I the only that sees the rule as "you can't premeasure beyond a single tool or ruler worth of distance"?

[Green Knight 9,746]

Am I the only that sees the rule as "you can't premeasure beyond a single tool or ruler worth of distance"?

You're not alone.

I think the wording is clear, as is the intent behind the rule.

[Darth Lupine 1,556]

Am I the only that sees the rule as "you can't premeasure beyond a single tool or ruler worth of distance"?

^^^this.

[Smuggler 556]

Am I the only that sees the rule as "you can't premeasure beyond a single tool or ruler worth of distance"?

I agread, how ever the next question is then distance from what? Can you measure from any ship/squadron/obstacle/token in the playarea at any time? If so then I think you will be hard pressed to find any part of the playarea you can not measure to at any point in time. It's just that you have to remeber (without any form of marking) previous measurements as you move the tool to measure from an other point.

[DarthBadger 53]

What's the difference between using my finger and visually memorizing where my finger would be?

 

It's like comparing doing maths in your head vs. doing maths by counting your fingers.... end result is the same and you did math anyway.  So I cannot OBVIOUSLY triangulate by using my fingers but I can triangulate mentally....

Card counting in a Vegas casino...

Using your mod 1.0 brain as opposed to any physical device can still get you waking up in an alley with fewer teeth/kneecaps (allegedly!)

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Am I the only that sees the rule as "you can't premeasure beyond a single tool or ruler worth of distance"?

I agread, how ever the next question is then distance from what? Can you measure from any ship/squadron/obstacle/token in the playarea at any time? If so then I think you will be hard pressed to find any part of the playarea you can not measure to at any point in time. It's just that you have to remeber (without any form of marking) previous measurements as you move the tool to measure from an other point.

Well you can't stall so you are at best going to get a quick measure on both sides. You can't measure from my ship to your ship then measure the intervening distance. The best way for this is to make sure players only measure with the 1 and close sides not the opposite ends.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

So if for some reason (3x6 foot game area) that ships are more than the 2 rollers away, you can't figure out the intervening distance. This means you can't play turns out more than 2 to 3 at a time.

I do all this in my head though after my quick measure. It takes time to learn

[Gibbobobo 44]

Sent an email to FFG and asked to clarify exactly what is and isn't allowed. I'll post the reply here when it comes back.

 

Anyone know how long they normally take to respond? This is the first time I've sent a rules question in. It's been about a week now.

[Green Knight 9,746]

 

Sent an email to FFG and asked to clarify exactly what is and isn't allowed. I'll post the reply here when it comes back.

 

Anyone know how long they normally take to respond? This is the first time I've sent a rules question in. It's been about a week now.

 

 

I've sent in questions (Armada and other games), and usually gotten an answer within a week or so.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Sent an email to FFG and asked to clarify exactly what is and isn't allowed. I'll post the reply here when it comes back.

 

Anyone know how long they normally take to respond? This is the first time I've sent a rules question in. It's been about a week now.

I've gotten answers the same day, I've waited a couple months and had to send the question a second time before they responded to the first. It varies. Usually they are fairly prompt though.

Be sure to check your spam folder though.

[DarthBadger 53]

Just found a batrep on Youtube.

Classic example of triangulation.

Star Wars Armada 300pt. Tournament.

By

L2 Wargame.

Published 26th June

Numerous examples of a range ruler being laid against a ship and then the movement tool used to plan a move.

Take a look.

Apart from the unintentional cheating it's an interesting match...

VSD, GSD (guess which one!), Rhymer and squads

vs

AF2, Neb and 2xCR90 - no squadrons.

[Gibbobobo 44]

Got an email back...

 

Hello, Mark,

 

In response to your question:

 Rules Question:
Hello, I asked this question about a week ago, apologies if you're still looking into the answer, but thought I'd ask again in case it got lost in the internet void. When playing Star Wars Armada under tournament rules the following additional rules applies. "A player cannot use multiple rulers or maneuver tools to measure additional range, distance, or movement beyond the length of a single tool or to triangulate measurements."

My questions are:

1) Can a play use a range ruler and the maneuver tool at the same time?

2) If a player wanted to move their squadron to engage an enemy squadron, but also wanted to be in a position that it wasn't engaged with another close by enemy squadron, are they allowed to measure from the enemy squadrons to work out the position they want to be in and mark that spot on the play surface either with their finger or a token of some kind so that they can move the squadron to that exact spot? All of this is done using one range ruler.

3) In a similar situation is a player allowed to move his squadron to engage an enemy squadron, measure to make sure his is/isn't engaged and adjust the final position of the squadron to make sure it is engaged/not engaged with the enemy squadrons the players wants. (Providing the squadron doesn't move beyond it's movement range of course)

Thanks very much.

 

We’re adding clarifications into the next version of the Tournament Rules that address these issues. Essentially: 

 

1. A player cannot use more than one tool at the same time, so he can’t use the ruler and maneuver tool together.
2. Yes, as long as they don’t use more tools than the ruler followed by a fingertip, token, or an equivalent, they can premeasure in that way.
3. If you clearly communicate your intent to your opponent and can quickly get your squadron in its intended position, this is reasonable. Your opponent is free to call the judge/TO over if the process seems to be taking too long (slow play) or if it seems like your intended position wasn’t clear. 

 

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com

 

 

 

 

So using your finger to mark a position on the play surface is fine as long as you're still only using one ruler.

[Green Knight 9,746]

Very good reply. Should clear away any ambiguity.

[wtfboar 47]

I am surprised by that response as well. If they are going to allow you to mark the table then they might as well let you triangulate. It's going to be the same thing. How many markers can you have on a table at once?

[Gibbobobo 44]

You shouldn't ever need more than one, measure from target squadron to where you want to be, place token, move your squadron to token. 

 

Anything more than something simple like that and I think your getting into slow play territory.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Gibbobobo

[Perakkir 108]

Just a note.  I was present at the tourney which L2 videoed and the two players in that game are both good friends of mine.  They had not read about triangulation being off limits at the time that game had been played and most of the players were brand new.  Those two guys would never cheat in a game and are both long time gamers.  They would have no way of knowing that was off limits because who would think to make that off limits in a full pre-measure game.  I was surprised when i read it.  I assume FFG thinks it makes a game take longer, so if that is why I guess I can see it.  But it really makes no big difference that I can tell after a few dozen games.  

 

In any case, I let them know that FAQ was out there and also let the TO know.