Triangulation

[kinnison 850]

Page 6 of the tournament rules second paragraph

 

 

A player cannot use multiple rulers or maneuver tools to
measure additional range, distance, or movement beyond the
length of a single tool or to triangulate measurements.

 

For me this is a big thing, and makes the skill of being able to estimate distances with the just the eyeball all the more important.  I also think it makes gameplay a LOT quicker

 

How important is this rule and how important is it going to be to enforce this?

Edited June 13, 2015 by kinnison

[Green Knight 9,746]

Important. And easy to enfOrce.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I don't see why a clearly written rule wouldn't be enforced. Using multiple measuring tools at the same time is, frankly speaking, cheating.

[kinnison 850]

Here are some examples I don't know if they fall under "Triangulation"

 

1. Player activates squadron.  He measures range from Opposing ship, and places finger down to mark it.  He then places distance ruler down for activated Squadron, and moves squadron short of marked spot.  Follow up... at which point should it be obvious triangulation is being used and what penalty is enforced for the violation of the rule?

 

2. Can rulers only be used for the activation?  I.e Range for firing, and Distance for Squadron movement or special abilities? 

 

3. Can I measure range before or after moving?

4. Can you measure range from Opposing ships?

[Green Knight 9,746]

You can measure with the ruler (any side) AT ANY TIME, as long as you don't:

 

- triangulate 

- stall for time

 

In both cases I'd call a judge over if in doubt.

 

The man tool can only be used during movement.

[clontroper5 4,233]

Here are some examples I don't know if they fall under "Triangulation"

 

1. Player activates squadron.  He measures range from Opposing ship, and places finger down to mark it.  He then places distance ruler down for activated Squadron, and moves squadron short of marked spot.  Follow up... at which point should it be obvious triangulation is being used and what penalty is enforced for the violation of the rule?

 

 

this is not actually against the rules.

 

 

"A player cannot use multiple rulers or maneuver tools"(keyword multiple)

 

so this is perfectly legal and I have no problem using it or letting my friends/opponents using it.

Edited June 15, 2015 by clontroper5

[Intys Rule 148]

I was going to ask the same thing... I've done something similar although I left the range ruler in place and moved a ship instead of a squadron and thought it was alright since I only used ONE ruler and ONE maneuver tool.  If that is a No-No, then what if I just worked out the range from the enemy ship using the range ruler, mentally memorized where a range band ended, took the ruler off the table, and then used the maneuver tool to be outside-ish of the range band.  Whether I use a finger to mark the range band, looked at a particular star or feature of the mat, or blatantly left the range ruler, it'll still be triangulation, wouldn't it?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

The man tool can only be used during movement.

Can we please not call it that.

[Wildhorn 453]

If you mark down (with your finger or whatever) where the ruler ended, this is triangulisation and against the rules.

You can only use 1 tool at time and you can't mark by any means points to refer to them.

[Intys Rule 148]

What's the difference between using my finger and visually memorizing where my finger would be?

 

It's like comparing doing maths in your head vs. doing maths by counting your fingers.... end result is the same and you did math anyway.  So I cannot OBVIOUSLY triangulate by using my fingers but I can triangulate mentally....

[Wildhorn 453]

What's the difference between using my finger and visually memorizing where my finger would be?

 

It's like comparing doing maths in your head vs. doing maths by counting your fingers.... end result is the same and you did math anyway.  So I cannot OBVIOUSLY triangulate by using my fingers but I can triangulate mentally....

One is not as precise as the other one. 

[wtfboar 47]

Right and there is no way to rule on some ones memory. But marking with your fingure is obviously trying to triangulate, and work around the no triangulation rule.  

[chilligan 1,302]

What's the ruling on line lasers? Can I use one at any time, as long as I don't use a ruler at the same time?

[Intys Rule 148]

 

What's the difference between using my finger and visually memorizing where my finger would be?

 

It's like comparing doing maths in your head vs. doing maths by counting your fingers.... end result is the same and you did math anyway.  So I cannot OBVIOUSLY triangulate by using my fingers but I can triangulate mentally....

One is not as precise as the other one. 

 

 

Yeah, I've noticed that as well.  Its kinda hard to lay down and work with the maneuver tool with just one hand so visual memorization seems to be more accurate for me.  Ninja triangulation FTW!!

[Gibbobobo 44]

If you mark down (with your finger or whatever) where the ruler ended, this is triangulisation and against the rules.

You can only use 1 tool at time and you can't mark by any means points to refer to them.

 

Where is the rule that says you can't mark points and use them?

 

The section in the tournament rules says...

 

"A player cannot use multiple rulers or maneuver tools to measure additional range, distance, or movement beyond the length of a single tool or to triangulate measurements."

 

The use of the "or to triangulate measurements" at the end of that to me is still referring to the use of multiple rules or maneuver tools. If you take out of the other things you can't do with multiple rulers/tools then it reads "A player cannot use multiple rulers or maneuver tools to triangulate measurements."

 

This suggests to me as long as you are only using a single ruler you can measure from your ship, mark a point on the play surface with your finger and measure to or from that point still using the one ruler.

[Smuggler 556]

This suggests to me as long as you are only using a single ruler you can measure from your ship, mark a point on the play surface with your finger and measure to or from that point still using the one ruler.

 

... then what is the point of not beeing allowed to use multiple rulers?

 

"You shall not use multiple rulers, but you shall be allowed to do everything you can do with multiple rulers"... seems a bit strange to me.

[Gibbobobo 44]

True, but then I didn't write the rule, that's just how I'm reading it.

 

This is only really going to come into play when you're moving squadrons and you want to make sure you're engaged with one, but you want to put it at the edge of the engagement range so you're not engaged with other enemy squadrons (or similar things such as moving to attacking a ship but wanting to make sure you are out of engagement range to a nearby enemy squadron). If the squadrons movement clearly allows it to reach the target position, then I've no problem with letting them measure to make sure they are in/out engagement range of the said squadrons and then moving the squadron a little if it's not where they want it to be. 

 

With all the rules to allow measuring and pre-measuring it doesn't feel like it should then come down to a game of how well can you guess distance 1. The games feels like it's more about the bigger strategy at least to me anyway.

[Green Knight 9,746]

...and suddenly things start dragging out as both players measure, and measure, and measure...which is against the rules. You're not allowed to use pre-measuring to stall the game. Use you eyes, guesstimate, move on.

[Intys Rule 148]

Measuring distance to drag out the game is very different from measuring distance to make the right decision or movement.

[Green Knight 9,746]

Why use your fingers? Why not use dice? A handful of dice can be used to divide the table into handy sections for accurate measuring.

 

So one has to use a neutral battlemap, but can use all OTHER means to triangulate, except specifically more than one ruler or tool on the table at any one time (but one of EACH seems to be ok)?

 

Don't think that's FFG's intent.

[Gibbobobo 44]

I think you going a little off track here. I'm not on about purposefully playing slow or spending ages measuring every distance on the board.

I'm on about thing like me or my opponent saying I want to move this squadron so it's engaged with that opposing squadron but far enough away from the other squadron just behind the first.

The game doesn't feel like it should then become a game of skill and who can best guess distance 1. Personally I don't feel that was ffg's intent either but maybe that's just me.

[Green Knight 9,746]

I can agree with your last statement!

I'm mostly trying to make a point - based on prior experience in other games pre-measuring leads to no good. So should be kept under strict control.

[Darth Lupine 1,556]

I think you going a little off track here. I'm not on about purposefully playing slow or spending ages measuring every distance on the board.

I'm on about thing like me or my opponent saying I want to move this squadron so it's engaged with that opposing squadron but far enough away from the other squadron just behind the first.

The game doesn't feel like it should then become a game of skill and who can best guess distance 1. Personally I don't feel that was ffg's intent either but maybe that's just me.

If you move your squadron and then use the ruler to make sure the above is true I wouldn't really have an issue. But laying the ruler down from an enemy ship and then leaving it there and fiddling with the tool at the same time I would have an issue with.

[Intys Rule 148]

If you move your squadron and then use the ruler to make sure the above is true I wouldn't really have an issue. But laying the ruler down from an enemy ship and then leaving it there and fiddling with the tool at the same time I would have an issue with.

 

The thing is, when you move your squadron, you move it along the range ruler and can move it forward or backward as necessary.  You can fine-tune the move, even just 1mm to the left or right.  This is not possible with ships.  Once you slide the maneuver tool into the ship base, that's it.  This means getting the joints at the proper angles is much more important.

 

You have a problem if your opponent puts the range ruler down and fiddles with the maneuver tool?  This is just a visible way of triangulation.  What if he uses his finger to mark range?  Do you still have a problem with that?  Or put dice as a marker? 

 

Point is, people will triangulate one way or another.... I guess as long as both sides can do it and it isn't done as a delaying tactic, then it's fair on both sides of the table.

 

Also, with regards to "delaying tactic," I can think of only a few games that have gone to time... one of them was when playing against a total newbie and another was playing against a swarm of 6 or 7 CR90s.  Most games don't go to time so using triangulation as a delaying tactic will be blatantly obvious.

[wtfboar 47]

The rules clearly state you can't measure to triangulate. If you use one measuring device and then put your finger dice what ever to mark the spot, then you are still defacto triangulating. Even though the rules do not expressly say you can't do that. There is clear and obvious intent not to allow triangulation in any form.