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EtnasVassal

Magnets On Ships?

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Hey, I have a bit of a question.

 

There is a guy who comes to our local tournaments who has put rare earth magnets on all of his ships and their flight stands. While I think that this is a great idea to make it so that if a peg snaps you're not potentially left with a nightmarish situation (removing the broken bit from the connector under the ship), there is an issue with this.

 

In the last tournament I was in, after getting utterly crushed (as usual), I was drifting around the venue looking in on other games. While peeking at this guy's game, I saw his opponent looking down in horror as he realized that he had planned his maneuvers for the turn incorrectly because the magnetized ship had spun to face a different direction on its peg.

 

Unfortunately this spinning is not an uncommon thing on his ships. With only a single magnetic contact point, the models constantly spin to face the wrong direction. I know that this isn't an intentional thing on his part (he's a nice enough guy), but unless you pay attention to the miniatures base rather than the ship you easily lose track of where his ships are going.

 

Basically, is this a legal modification?

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An interesting problem but one I can easily see a reason for.  I'm sure you know north poles attract south poles and repel other north poles.  While I'm not entirely sure what the fields on the magnets he is using look like it is entirely possible that they don't line up north to south and thus the ship moves to compensate.  Of course if the field fluctuates then a ship might just sit and spin forever.

 

Technically, you aren't supposed to make any modifications to the ships aside from paint jobs.  You're also supposed to use FFG components which mean flight stands and pegs.  While you will usually get away with using magnetic attachments they are a violation that could cause issues.  Of course the odd thing here is that FFG's components do not always line up like they should and you could see a ship 'properly' seated on its post yet pointing the wrong way. 

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normally its only one magnet and one steel plate or ring that they attach too so repositioning for magnetic field wont help. I think it looks cool but I do like how the posts are idiot proof..lol 

Edited by Swedge

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Ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or replaced as desired so long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience

According to the official Tournament Rules, you may modify or replace your ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) as desired - as long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another players experience.

 

The way that reads to me, is that if you're using magnets as part of your ship pegs (in accordance with these rules) they are tournament legal.

 

They very likely wrote that into the tournament rules to answer just this sort of question (in the affirmative).

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If the ship points in the wrong direction then I'd say it does "adversely affect" my experiance.[sic]

 

It would be if the only way you could mount the ship via a magnet was backwards.

 

But if you're mounting the ship forward, and at some point the ship's facing is contrary to what is indicated on its token, it's facing should simply be corrected - that applies for ship that are mounted on regular pegs too.

 

Let's not confuse the baby with the bath water.  Having all your ships facing the wrong way because of a bad peg mod would adversely affect anyone's gaming experience, but the occasional shift or twist shouldn't bother anyone.

 

Yeah, there are some real flimsy setups out there, but by and large most of the mods I've seen have been very slick, stable, and solid - not of this spinning top stuff.

 

Yeah, there will be flimsy magnetic setups, but these will likely be the exception, and not the rule.  When something like that happens, it isn't the sort of adverse affect that the rule is concerned with

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I will throw in here,

I stopped by a regional tournament in Raleigh last weekend, a few ships had magnets, some on a ball bearing, (one Falcon mounted on a taller flight stand) while it looked VERY cool to see a ship tilted a little to one angle or another rather than perfectly horizontal, it could be considered confusing, like someone mounting a B-Wing sideways instead of the way it comes?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/131037-magnets-how-they-work-for-x-wing-miniatures/

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There were also some great repaints, one Decimator flat black with dark red trim, and two Fire-sprays both identical in various shades of black and gray, while these all looked VERY cool, seeing as X-Wing is played on FFG mats that are all mostly black, it could be considered confusing.

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X-Wing is "not" a modeling and painting based game like other miniatures games that come un-assembled and unpainted. Thus, there is a fine line between modeling and painting for advantage and trying to have your ships look cool or different than everyone else.

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Note; I repainted all my ships and may put them on the ball bearing magnet set up.

 

.

Just my two cents.

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Personally I'm putting all my ships on a disk on disk setup. This will decrease peg breakage, and will keep the ship level and secure. I'll probably get a few ball bearings to mount on a display with the ships tilted, but when I'm playing I'll want my ships level.

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It's legal, but I don't like it. I think anything that detracts from clarity of public information really has little or no place in the game. I totally get people wanting to modify their ships to look cool, but i would hope they had unmodified versions on hand in case it affected anyone.

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If the magnetization job is done poorly or the magnets are not strong enough to hold the ship in place without moving freely that seems it does seem like it is something that would impact play. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it an illegal modification. As long as the shape and size of the base remains unaltered and it is clear which ship the model represents it doesn't matter which direction the model faces.

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On 6/15/2015 at 10:35 AM, DanDoulogos said:

 

According to the official Tournament Rules, you may modify or replace your ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) as desired - as long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another players experience.

 

The way that reads to me, is that if you're using magnets as part of your ship pegs (in accordance with these rules) they are tournament legal.

 

They very likely wrote that into the tournament rules to answer just this sort of question (in the affirmative).

I think you are looking at an old document. The current one doesn't appear to contain that text block (which the stupid new forum won't actually include when I quote you). 

 

X-Wing Tournament Regulations, pg. 4:

"Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their squads according to
the following rules:

• Players may paint their ship models. They cannot modify a ship model in any
way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.
• Players cannot modify ship bases to alter their size or shape. Weight
may be added to a ship base if it does not alter the shape of the base.
Ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be
modified or replaced with a different connecting method."

There's a few more items that follow but they all deal with components other than dials, pegs, and bases.

Edited by WWHSD

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You may wait for FFG to rule it out, and this is what will happen if there is too many complains about the direction of the ship. Defend it as much as you want, but if the situation happen too often they will rule them out. So if you want to keep your magnets, instead of accusing the poor one that got tricked, accuse the dude that messed up his mod and defend that mod should be done properly. Because in the end, this will not be the modder that will win, it will be the people confused that complain to FFG.

Edit: Seriously, when ship are supposed to face proper direction you should not have to change your playing habbit just because some dude do cheap mod.

Edited by muribundi

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13 hours ago, Goseki1 said:

If I was the player who's ship had turned around messing my opponent up I would have been horrified and taken all steps to fix it, even if it meant me losing. That's a terrible shame

Bring a Core 2 rule book and a printout of the last faq with you to every tourney (just put it in one of the FFG tourney folders and it'll look cool and official) to show the TO if you have a rules challenge.

You can challenge even if it's not a rule breakage and openly troll someone who intentionally does that. I think shaming would make him try to keep it straight. If not, you can call the TO and ask for extra time for due to him trying to delay the game.

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Also, it is not because something is legal in the general sense that it is not cheating when you exploit it. Clearly, FFG take care of not confusing the player, and I would dare you to bring peg modification to a tournament where all your ship are facing random direction.

They are lenient on the placement of Token, but if you place them anywhere, never using the same way, you will be seen as suspicious and trying to confuse your opponent.

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29 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Also, it is not because something is legal in the general sense that it is not cheating when you exploit it. 

Sure, that falls under the general clause of sportsmanship and the authority of the TO/Judge to deal with people at their discretion.   For that reason you're unlikely to see an actual rule addressing it, because the TO/Judge can deal with it if needed already.

29 minutes ago, muribundi said:

They are lenient on the placement of Token, but if you place them anywhere, never using the same way, you will be seen as suspicious and trying to confuse your opponent.

That again falls under the discretion of the TO/Judge.  If someone is using their tokens in a way that's intended to, or just is causing confusion on what ship has what token the TO/Judge can deal with it.   There's no need for a rule that says you must stack your tokens within X inches of the ship they belong to, because the TO can already deal with situations like this as needed.

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I don't call for a rule, but some people here quoted that magnet were legal, so it was ok for ship to point the wrong direction. I was refering to that, no it is not ok if ship point in the wrong direction, and if this was happening too many time, even if FFG make it legal to mod your peg, I would call a judge and ask for the peg to be changed, sorry.

 

Quote

I don't think it's a violation he's not actually altered the model to deliberately confuse his opponent, the ship still has a printed arc on the base after all.

At a glance it's really obvious where the rear of a ship is.

 

Quote

but the occasional shift or twist shouldn't bother anyone.

 

Quote

As long as the shape and size of the base remains unaltered and it is clear which ship the model represents it doesn't matter which direction the model faces.


Here what I was refering to when I said some people defend the wrong direction on the call that peg modification are legal.

Edited by muribundi

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8 minutes ago, muribundi said:

I don't call for a rule, but some people here quoted that magnet were legal, so it was ok for ship to point the wrong direction.

Those are two different things.

Magnets are clearly legal under the current rules.  

The orientation of the ship isn't actually covered under the rules anywhere  other than in the general "not confusing" sense or the sportsmanship stuff.  But since the base has a token on it showing the ships arc, the amount of confusion that having the ship point the wrong way is debatable.

A TO could be completely justified in saying that the orientation of the ship doesn't matter since the token is facing the correct direction.  I don't know that I'd rule that way but it's not unreasonable.  

There's also the question of intent, was the person trying to confuse someone or was it that no one noticed that the ship was facing the wrong way?  Based on the OP it seems most likely the later, it was an honest mistake and one that would of been fixed when noticed.

If people having issues with ships facing the wrong way becomes a common problem, then sure FFG may do something about it, may make a rule that says ships must face the correct way... But so far that hasn't been the case.

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The need for applying magnets is partially due to the quality of the ships and needing alternate methods to make sure the ship can be used with the base.  I see 2 main motivations to go to magnets.  I have not done it yet but am considering doing so.

1) Older and newer models have different peg and socket sizes and it can be somewhat annoying to try to match them up when I pull out different ships.  Magnets eliminates that problem and make it easier to swap out ships and base tokens.

2) Magnets are a viable repair for damaged ship models.  I have had the bottom socket break off of a gray Tie Defender twice in the exact same manner.

- The first time, I was at a tournament and when placing the model on the peg, the socket broke off flush with the bottom of the ship Another player loaned me a ship to use.  I contacted FFG and they sent me a replacement ship. 

- My son used that same replacement ship at a tournament and during setup, placing it on the peg, it broke in the exact same manner.  Everyone at the tournament was OK with him using just the base without the model.

One of my friends also had a gray Tie Defender break in the same manner - so I think there may be some inconsistency in manufacture for that particular ship.  I have seen multiple posts by people with the same problem.  Getting a free replacement from FFG was cool, but now that I have seen the same problem 3 times in the last 2 months, Magnets seem to be a simple and easy repair option.

Flying a ship backwards is not a good thing and I think a player should be responsible for maintaining the correct heading in relation to the base.

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7 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Those are two different things.

Magnets are clearly legal under the current rules.  

The orientation of the ship isn't actually covered under the rules anywhere  other than in the general "not confusing" sense or the sportsmanship stuff.  But since the base has a token on it showing the ships arc, the amount of confusion that having the ship point the wrong way is debatable.

A TO could be completely justified in saying that the orientation of the ship doesn't matter since the token is facing the correct direction.  I don't know that I'd rule that way but it's not unreasonable.  

There's also the question of intent, was the person trying to confuse someone or was it that no one noticed that the ship was facing the wrong way?  Based on the OP it seems most likely the later, it was an honest mistake and one that would of been fixed when noticed.

If people having issues with ships facing the wrong way becomes a common problem, then sure FFG may do something about it, may make a rule that says ships must face the correct way... But so far that hasn't been the case.

I think intent is part of judgement for a TO. 

The first time I ever flew Ryad/Vessery, I placed the Red defender on Vessery's base.  This was not intentional - I did it because I felt the higher ranked pilot would likely have the Red ship and did not really think about matching appearance on the cards.  During the first attack sequence, my opponent questioned me firing with my Red Defender first and the fact that he had targeted it with his ships instead of going after Ryad as he thought.

I realized the misunderstanding at that point and started flying the ship colors to match the cards to avoid confusion.  From the rules standpoint, I did nothing wrong, but I understood that if I had done it purposefully - it would have been with an intent to confuse my opponents.  I think mistakes can be honestly made, but once you know what happened, you should make an effort to avoid confusion after that point.

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