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Deadshane

Is Armada gonna make it?

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Size table needed to play does not define game genre.

Also, X-Wing Epic is played on a 3x6 table and takes as long if not longer than Armada does.

 

The reasons it is bigger and slower are irrelevant to the topic of this thread, only that it is.

Exactly, I'm not saying the game is bad, only that it takes more time to play, which for some people is an issue. The fact that it's faster than other games simply doesn't change how long it takes to play Armada.

It's like in MMO's Dungeon X may 2-2.5 hours to clear. Dungeon Y may only take 1-1.5 hours to clear. But the fact that Y takes less time doesn't matter in the least to someone who can only devote 30min's to an hour to the game. Trying to tell them that Y is shorter than X doesn't actually change how long Y takes or that it takes more time than that person has to play.

Edited by VanorDM

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It's popular because it's Star Wars. As much as they've done a good job keeping it simple, fun and quick if you took this format and changed the ships to generic space ships or even something like BSG most of the people who are now on this forum would likely never have heard of it. Star Wars draws people in, not the game itself.

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if the game wasn't amazing, I wouldn't have given two ***** and stayed playing only X-wing miniatures

 

hell, the only reason I ever heard of X-wing miniatures was because it was introduced at a local gaming venue as the hot new wargame. The fact that it was starwars was completely secondary to how great it played.

 

Not to say that the allure of the ip isn't a great draw, but implying that the gameplay isn't a draw for the actual game is imo incorrect. If the game isn't fun, you're not going to keep playing and investing in it star wars or no

Edited by ficklegreendice

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In the Netherlands I have seen two tournaments cancelled one due to wave 1 being late and one due to lack of players. One next weekend has 4 players signed up.

A mix of starting costs and the wave 1 mess up caused people to stick with xwing. Hopig change cimes with wave2.

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"To a Wargamer, a 3x6 table is small.And an Armada game is quick. To a boardgamer 3x6 is huge, and an Armada game takes a long time.

 

But Armada is a wargame, aimed squarely at the wargaming crowd. It will attract some people that wouldn't normally play this type of game, but (at least in my opinion) it is intended to woo the wargaming crowd."

 

As a wargamer i completely agree in the above. Also as a wargamer i am not very interested in competitive boxing ring set-ups and all the meta-gaming, but more in getting a rich game experience - and to get there time is often needed.  In this i miss some real scenarios for Armada instead of the objectives which i find to be the weak spot in Armada as many of the seem very contrived. 

Edited by GilmoreDK

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VandorDM, I disagree with you.

First off, I don't see X-Wing as a war game. What's the scale of the game? A few fighters versus a few fighters. Fine, this is its scale. To me though it is more of a miniature boardgame. That is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

Now you say scope is not important. This I disagree with as well. Scope is the entire reason to get into a miniature game. When you look at a game, do you put yourself into the position of what you would represent in that game? I know I do and I have yet to meet someone who does not. This is why I did not get into X-Wing. While I love fighter combat I have always loved big ship combat more. I loved it more than ground combat, aerial duels, skirmishes, etc. This is why I played games like Gothic, Firestorm, etc. Dem Cap Ships! (made to look stupid on purpose)

The scope is usually a subconscious draw. It ties into the IP as well. On top of that, the scope determines what you are looking to play. For X-Wing, are you looking to play a full squadron of X-Wings or do you just play the standard 150pts. Do you play epic because of the scale?

Scope also determines what you are willing to pay. If the game called for only a couple of fighters, you only need to buy a couple of fighters (FFG circumvent this selling ace packs and ships with better upgrades, games like 40k makes people buy new things by invalidating people's codices with newer ones, Firestorm Armada releases new rule books, etc). The scope with Armada makes me want to field a fleet, even if that is only a few powerful ships, or a bakers dozen of small but capable ships.

Armada is not for certain people. That is fine. It however is continually sold out in Portland Oregon where we have game stores everywhere. Our first tournament was a 8 people and several more have been held in the month since the first.

This game is great and I am saddened that people put it off because of the time it takes. They have a life, good for them but they will be missing out on something that currently makes all other current spaced based capital ship games look boring (once again my opinion.)

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I previously played Warhammer FB, and the amount of time to set up and take down that game add significantly to the time to play by contrast this is much quicker. The size is easily accommodated by war gammers, I have a 4x8 flock covered game board. The rules do look more intimidating than X-wing, but when i first bought X-wing, i learned how to play it from the book, and it was a bit abstract until i actually got the components out and pushed them around a bit. So i think this game might be similair for others. Capital ship combat it what i always wanted and X-wing drew me in because it existed, that and target was selling it off at half price. The shorter game time might be a selling point for wargammers that have had curtail their hobby activities due to time constraints, such as family, but still get some of that epic feel.

I am ready to back this game, i havent been this excited for a game since my Bloodbowl league days.

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VandorDM, I disagree with you.

Feel free, I don't need you to agree with me, but your personal opinion on what is or isn't a wargame doesn't really matter. Neither does mine, because what is or isn't a wargame doesn't really matter in the long run. If a game is considered a 'true wargame' (which often comes pretty close to the no true scotsman fallacy) doesn't really matter to most people. They'll buy it based on the merits of the game and how much enjoyment they think they'll get out of it. They continue to support it based on how much enjoyment they get out of it.

The fact that some people may not consider X-Wing to be a wargame hasn't stopped it from being the 2nd highest selling miniature game out there. It's also not like there's some board out there who certifies a game as a True Wargame, and any game not certified by them can't be marketed as a wargame.

I'm sure you'd find a number of people who don't consider Armada a true wargame either. Is that going to stop anyone here from playing it? Honestly whether X-Wing is or isn't a wargame simply doesn't matter in the least, especially in this discussion. It's a game that may or may not appeal to people, and it's a game that may appeal to some people more or less then Armada does for a host of reasons. However none of those reasons are going to be 'well person X on the internet doesn't consider it a wargame so I guess I'll pass'

If that comes off as a little snarky, I apologize I don't intend for it to be so. I'm not trying to attack your opinion, just point out that your opinion only really matters to you and anyone who shares it.

This game is great and I am saddened that people put it off because of the time it takes.

I think people are missing out too, but not everyone has a couple hours they can devote to a game. But for people like that Armada was never much of an option really.

Which is the whole point. If someone doesn't have time to play Armada, then pointing out how much faster it is then other games doesn't matter in the least.

But even then some people may be willing to devote that much time to a game, but not this one, because Star Wars or Cap Ships or something else just doesn't appeal to them. They may of even been willing to play it, but only if it was a shorter game.

Also the whole concept of Scope only matters in as much as how much it may appeal to you. I play or have played a number of miniature games. 40k, Flames of War, Warmachine, X-Wing, and Armada.

Some games having a large scope, like 40k or Flames of War, others having a small scope, like Warmachine and X-Wing. For some people the scope of Flames of War, being based on a WWII Company, is far too small, but others would prefer to play Bolt Action, a WWI squad level game.

I've seen people say they've checked out Armada and passed on it, because the scope wasn't large enough, it's not a fleet game, more of a skirmish game with capital ships.

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When we play Armada, people become curious because it's Star Wars then start looking away once they find out the price of the Core Set. It's the buy-in expense that really hinders its popularity even if it's still relatively cheap compared to other wargames.

 

Perhaps the "average Star Wars fan" is not exactly the the type of fan who would get Armada as an impulse buy. Wargamers see the value offered in the box but their interests are already spread out over other games such as X-Wing. Most are just not ready to fork out that amount of money just to take that risk.

 

 

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If games are taking a couple of hours than they should lower the points and learn the rules and such at 180 points.

I did 2 teaching games in the space of 75 minutes. That is a little over 37 minutes per game. If that is a long time for a single game, we'll then I don't know what to tell you.

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If that is a long time for a single game, we'll then I don't know what to tell you.

I never said that I think the game takes too long, only that some people may, and they have every right to that opinion. You or I don't get to decide what is a correct opinion or not. For some people you may be able to change their mind, but if you can't you have to respect their opinion on the matter. Because how long is too long is again whole subjective.

Edited by VanorDM

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Just having an opinion doesn't mean it is a valid one or applies beyond yourself. If the only place you eat out at is McDonald's then Chick-fil-A is going to seem expensive to you, and Applebees be downright exuberant. But to most others that isn't going to be the case, the opposite actually. Now that doesn't change the fact that for the orginal person that thier statement is absolutely correct, as it pertains to them. But overall it isn't valid.

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Just having an opinion doesn't mean it is a valid one or applies beyond yourself.

It doesn't have to apply to anyone else. If someone thinks that Armada takes too long to play, then that's the only thing that matters. We are after all talking about why someone may or may not buy the game. I can point out how much cheaper Armada is then say 40k all day long, that may not change someone's mind about the game being too expensive for them, and that remands a completely valid reason for them to not buy the game.

You may be able to change their mind on that issue, but that doesn't make their opinion invalid. A wholly subjective opinion is by its very nature not subject to someone else's opinion on what is or isn't valid. If I say I don't like the taste of onions, then that is a completely valid thing, and not really subject to debate. Likewise if someone thinks Armada takes too long to play then that's a completely valid statement for them.

How long other games take to play isn't really relevant, because they may consider those games worth the time, or may feel that no game that takes more than 30 minutes to play is worth playing. These are again wholly subjective opinions. While anyone should feel free to try and change their mind on the matter, you can't actually prove them wrong.

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I love the fact VandorDM that you continue to take my statements out of context.

I love the fact that you seem to want and argue that someone's opinion is subject to debate.

If I had a choice between limiting myself to 180 point games and not playing at all, I'd save my money and invest it in a different game. That's my opinion, are you now going to try and prove my opinion is wrong?

I mean that seems to be the whole point here, that someone's subjective opinion on how long is too long, is somehow factually wrong, and can be proven as such.

That is the one and only thing I've been saying this whole time, and you keep trying to argue the point. That some people may form the opinion that Armada takes too long to play. Yet you keep trying to argue that this isn't true. As if someone's opinion on the matter is subject being proven wrong.

Someone may think that because they heard it takes a long time, and somehow came to think that Armada takes 3+ hours. In that case yes they could be shown their error. They may think that Armada takes as long to play as a game of 40k does, and then again they could be shown that this is not true.

But they may know it takes an hour or so to play, or be shown it only takes that long and still consider this too long, and for those people the issue is simply not subject to debate.

Edited by VanorDM

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You guys crack me up with this dispute.

 

Thanks for bringing up the No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm not sure how that phrase escaped my attention, but it's one that I can put to use.

 

I agree that X-Wing is a bit of a half-way house between boardgame and wargame, even if I don't really care about the precise definitions of either. I also think that it might be a good gateway drug for people who might otherwise have never known about miniature wargames. I think that Armada is less of a gateway/halfway in that respect.

 

While I'm happy to do learning games for people (and I do quite a few), I still think it's more important to develop the what-to-do aspect of it. While I like to 100pnt6asteroidDeathMatches of X-Wing, I hope that Armada can prove to have more depth and variety that most X-Wing games tend to have. I think that it's more likely for that to happen because it's less likely to appeal to the quasi-boardgame crowd who are not too interested in something with greater depth.

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if the game wasn't amazing, I wouldn't have given two ***** and stayed playing only X-wing miniatures

 

hell, the only reason I ever heard of X-wing miniatures was because it was introduced at a local gaming venue as the hot new wargame. The fact that it was starwars was completely secondary to how great it played.

 

Not to say that the allure of the ip isn't a great draw, but implying that the gameplay isn't a draw for the actual game is imo incorrect. If the game isn't fun, you're not going to keep playing and investing in it star wars or no

 

At the same time, it could have been the most amazing game in the world and without a good IP behind it, I wouldn't have bothered spending money on it. I already have BFG and two fleets to scratch that 'huge ships in space' bug, and the BFG IP is very impressive. If I was looking for something new, I probably would have picked up the new Halo fleet game from Spartan Games. But then I saw the corvette, Nebulon B and the Star Destroyer and I was completely sold. I'll forgive a lot of average gameplay to be able to use Star Wars capital ships on the table.

 

So for me at least, the IP was much more important than the rules.

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if the game wasn't amazing, I wouldn't have given two ***** and stayed playing only X-wing miniatures

 

hell, the only reason I ever heard of X-wing miniatures was because it was introduced at a local gaming venue as the hot new wargame. The fact that it was starwars was completely secondary to how great it played.

 

Not to say that the allure of the ip isn't a great draw, but implying that the gameplay isn't a draw for the actual game is imo incorrect. If the game isn't fun, you're not going to keep playing and investing in it star wars or no

 

At the same time, it could have been the most amazing game in the world and without a good IP behind it, I wouldn't have bothered spending money on it. I already have BFG and two fleets to scratch that 'huge ships in space' bug, and the BFG IP is very impressive. If I was looking for something new, I probably would have picked up the new Halo fleet game from Spartan Games. But then I saw the corvette, Nebulon B and the Star Destroyer and I was completely sold. I'll forgive a lot of average gameplay to be able to use Star Wars capital ships on the table.

 

So for me at least, the IP was much more important than the rules.

I might do the Halo one if the rules are good and it feels like it should, I think the Battle Star Galactica one will be a tough one to resist

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If the game was bad the IP wouldn't matter. Look at Attack Wing, they just had a horrible turnout at thier own version of Worlds. Star Trek is popular but the game is so bad it is a joke.

True, though I don't think the Star Trek and Star Wars IPs are of the same magnitude.

I met a young black lady librarian with a Darth Vader tattoo yesterday. While awesome, not all that surprising here in Portland, but I don't see Captain Picard swinging it.

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