When is ship speed dial first revealed?

[DerErlkoenig 975]

o when you deploy ships you shouldn't be revealing your speed immediately, or you're also giving your opponent info about your maneuvering!  This "loophole" during deployment lets your opponent go "Oh, if your going to do that (changes his or her speed dial) then I'm going to do that"!  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous, once again, because neither of you can do it at any other time throughout the game.

Steiner

Unless you use a Navigate command to change your speed - something that is seen regularly enough to not be surprising, and something that I'd argue Admiral Ozzel is primarily based around (surprising speed changes overall, not just during deployment - but using him to immediately significantly change all your ships speeds is a now well-known strategy.)

Several things allow your to adjust your plans based on your opponent's actions such as liaisons, Support Officer, and other dial-fixers/token granters. The ability to set one ships speed based on the knowledge of one opponent's ship's speed is not a hugely significant departure from that, or from the general idea that second player gets some advantages overall. Deploying first is a cost of getting to activate first. Revealing your speed dial is a part of that cost.

I would argue that the justification for allowing secret speed-dial deployment is thin enough that almost any TO will rule against it, especially since no rule says that you can do it (and the rules are clear that you can only do what is expressly allowed) so I doubt you'd be able to "sort of cheat", but I'm not sure why you'd want to anyway.

As far as fluff considerations about ships accelerating, Star Wars sensors can determine engine power output, so they would be able to determine at what speed enemy ships are traveling. Plus, of course, this is a game, so trying to hold it to strict laws of reality is a wasted effort, it uses rules to be a fun game to play, not to mirror reality as perfectly as possible.

[rolfsteiner42 5]

DerEarlkoenig; I feel like I'm coming across like an idiot - but I'm not. YES - your fleet IS public for knowledge, (but you built it in private first!) You didn't build it *** for tat with your opponent every step of the way. Also, I already understand some of the other points you make about initiative and such.

What bothers me at this point is that some of the responses here seem to be peoples opinions (when it seems that there isn't a clarification on the point) that are strongly pushing that your interpretations are the correct ones. I don't want to make enemies, but it seems to me that at this point my views on this subject are just as valid as anyone else's. CDAT seems to have the same outlook as I do on this, and I would think probably for the same reasoning.

I know that this isn't X-wing, but the same company made this game, so there is plenty of reason to think that they are not that dissimilar. For that matter, I understand that Imperial Assault is actually based on the Space Hulk system - not an entirely new game either!

I just maintain that it doesn't make sense that after the first player deploys a ship (and reveals their speed dial - also basic maneuvering) that their opponent can instantaneously change their speed dial and, therefor their maneuvering - when nothing like this can happen throughout the rest of the battle.

I must say that I'm sorry about how long it takes me to type things, as shown by how many posts came in while I was typing, getting aspirin, etc.

[rolfsteiner42 5]

DerErlkoenig; maybe you're right about one big point, that I'm trying to apply real logic to this when I shouldn't because it's just a game. Although I may not be "brushed up" on every nuance of all the upgrades and commanders yet, I do understand a lot more than I seem to be getting credit for - and the idea of a "sort of cheat" was NOT meant that I wanted to! Also , I do understand most, if not all of the nuances of differences in initiative in what you gain vs. what you give up.

It may be that the TO's would see it your (and others) way, that I just can't seem to, but maybe it's just because (again) I'm stupidly applying logic to something that I shouldn't. But if I'm not mistaken, it still seems to be a case of your interpretations at this point, without an official answer or ruling on the subject - which could explain why any question came up in the first place. Well, thanks; Steiner

[DerErlkoenig 975]

They don't change it, they set it when they deploy. Yes, they have more information than you did when you deployed first - but that's already true.

X Wing and Armada are two different game systems, one should not expect any similarities in rule set necessarily. X Wing's entire method of movement and speed is different.

Until we get an official clarification, everyone should err on the side of the standard rules. If you are not explicitly allowed to hide this information (and you aren't) then you cannot hide this information. If you only play casually, feel free to alter this rule as you will. If you play competitively, expect that the TO will enforce the standard rules.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

I want to clarify, I'm not assuming that you are dumb, or trying to call you dumb. I just think you are missing mainly the permissive ruleset. The rules state that anything you aren't explicitly allowed to do, you aren't allowed to do. If you can do something, it's in the rules. In this case there is ambiguity - which means that we must assume, until we get clarification, that we aren't allowed to hide the information, since it doesn't say we are allowed to.

[Frimmel 2,593]

Dials have to be revealed when a ship is deployed as others have pointed out because they can be set to illegal values. There would be guys who would intentionally set dials to illegal values for the advantage of seeing other ship activations first allowing a more advantageous speed to be set.

 

Granted I'd never play with that guy again but chances are he still wouldn't be the last person you encounter trying that.

[daveddo 160]

If you aren't specifically told by the game rules that something is secret information, then it is public information. 

[ScottieATF 2,867]

This is starting to approach stacking ships territory.

Edited January 13, 2016 by ScottieATF

[Lyraeus 4,759]

This is starting to approach stacking ships territory.

Hey! Don't take my achievements away from me (^_~)

Honestly, I am ruling it that you have to declare your speed when you place your ship.

[Amanal 2,557]

p6 Learn to Play shows the set up of a game and the speed dials are face up.

[Green Knight 9,746]

This is starting to approach stacking ships territory.

 

Indeed. I was going to suggest all speed dials be place face-down in a pile/stack kind of thing...

[DerErlkoenig 975]

This is starting to approach stacking ships territory.

 

Indeed. I was going to suggest all speed dials be place face-down in a pile/stack kind of thing...

Just so long as they are not overlapping after a maneuver.

[Amanal 2,557]

 

 

This is starting to approach stacking ships territory.

 

Indeed. I was going to suggest all speed dials be place face-down in a pile/stack kind of thing...

Just so long as they are not overlapping after a maneuver.

 

What if you are moving the 5th ship down or would that be the 4th?

[DerErlkoenig 975]

What if you are moving the 5th ship down or would that be the 4th?

5 is right out.

[Frimmel 2,593]

Something else I would point out is there is also no indicator on the back side of the speed dials to clue you in to which ship it goes with. Don't the X-wing dials have a silhouette of the ship class they go with on the back? So you'd create the possibility of "three card monte" and intentionally or unintentionally being able to change speeds without navigate commands.

 

Granted face-up dials could get shifted around but it is easier to keep them straight when everyone can see them.

[Smuggler 556]

Don't the X-wing dials have a silhouette of the ship class they go with on the back?

No they do not.

[Frimmel 2,593]

 

Don't the X-wing dials have a silhouette of the ship class they go with on the back?

No they do not.

 

Maybe that is Star Trek Attack Wing then or maybe I'm totally incorrect about that idea in every way. Thanks.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Frimmel

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Indeed. I was going to suggest all speed dials be place face-down in a pile/stack kind of thing...

 

And then randomized? So you don't know what speed each of your ships will be going until you move it?

[daveddo 160]

 

Indeed. I was going to suggest all speed dials be place face-down in a pile/stack kind of thing...

 

And then randomized? So you don't know what speed each of your ships will be going until you move it?

 

New Setup step - take each ship's speed dial and spin it with your eyes closed, then place it face down. If your ship is set to an illegal speed, it takes a critical damage on reveal and then sets the speed to the closest legal deployment speed.

Edited January 13, 2016 by daveddo

[rolfsteiner42 5]

WOW - now it sort of feels like you're all just having fun at my expense. I will say this though; I missed something which Amanal pointed out - the dials ARE face up on page 6, and on page 24 as well - and it IS in the deployment phase.

This could be a definitive sign, and yet it seems that everyone does seem to feel that a definite answer would still need to be handed down from FFG. And let's face it - it seems that almost every game that's ever been made (by all companies) seem to have glitches like contradictions and missing pieces of rules. And yes, I have seen much worse in many others over the decades that I have been playing games.

I would like to ask a favor from two of you at this point, if just for the curiosity if nothing else. Both MikeMcMann and CDAT seemed to be looking at this question in a similar manner to the way that I was.

Would you both be so kind as to answer WHY you seemed to see it in much the same light as myself?

Thanks to all - I can sure say that this has been interesting! Steiner

[Lyraeus 4,759]

WOW - now it sort of feels like you're all just having fun at my expense. I will say this though; I missed something which Amanal pointed out - the dials ARE face up on page 6, and on page 24 as well - and it IS in the deployment phase.

This could be a definitive sign, and yet it seems that everyone does seem to feel that a definite answer would still need to be handed down from FFG. And let's face it - it seems that almost every game that's ever been made (by all companies) seem to have glitches like contradictions and missing pieces of rules. And yes, I have seen much worse in many others over the decades that I have been playing games.

I would like to ask a favor from two of you at this point, if just for the curiosity if nothing else. Both MikeMcMann and CDAT seemed to be looking at this question in a similar manner to the way that I was.

Would you both be so kind as to answer WHY you seemed to see it in much the same light as myself?

Thanks to all - I can sure say that this has been interesting! Steiner

They have not started having fun at your expense yet. . . you need 8 more pages and 2 threads in the general chat for that to happen. . . Trust me. . .I know. . . in fact, most of the teasing they are doing is also to poke fun at me. . . 

[rolfsteiner42 5]

Good one Lyraeus! I'll take that as the way it sounded - Thanks! I hope I get a response from MikeMcMann and CDAT though, because I truly am interested in their thinking about this for whatever it's worth.

Thanks again; Steiner

[mikemcmann 359]

I would say because the command dials are face down, there's no automatic reason to ASSUME they are face up. To me, it would lend itself to the dynamic of the importance of deployment.

I THINK that they are to be face up....but would not preclude the notion that they face down as outrageous....

[Green Knight 9,746]

Good one Lyraeus! I'll take that as the way it sounded - Thanks! I hope I get a response from MikeMcMann and CDAT though, because I truly am interested in their thinking about this for whatever it's worth.

Thanks again; Steiner

 

What Lyraeus said. We're very fond of him. So please don't think too harshly of us.

[Amanal 2,557]

@rolfsteiner42: Mike is also a bloody nice guy.