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Intys Rule

Concentrate fire command and token

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Assuming I have a ship that already has a Concentrate Fire token and I also reveal a Concentrate Fire command.  I can have three red dice for my attacks. 

 

1.  Can I roll dice THEN decide whether I use Concentrate Fire (command/token) on this attack?  Or do I have to decide if I'm using the command/token BEFORE rolling dice?

2.  After rolling dice, can I just use the token to reroll 1 dice?  After doing this, can I use the command dial to get another red dice and roll it?

3.  After rolling dice, I decide to use the token to reroll 1 dice, but not use the dial.  Can I now convert the command dial into a Concentrate Fire token?

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You always roll the initial attack first - this stops you from using an added concentrate fire dice to attack a target that you normally wouldnt be able to, perhaps due to an obstruction taking away your long range 1 red dice shot for example.

You can only resolve each command once during an activation, so that means that you can only concentrate fire once.

When you perform a command, you can however use a dial and token at the same time for a combined effect.

 

On questions 2 and 3. You could choose to use just the token to reroll a dice, but the dial would be wasted (as you cannot at that stage trade it for a token - this has to be done when you reveal the dial, nor could you use the dial on a later attack this turn - see only doing a command once).

 

So if you have a concentrate fire dial, and a token (or just choose to keep the dial when revealing it), best to use it where you can rather than waste it :)

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1. Modifying/Adding dice happens on the third step of attack so yes you roll then you can do a command via token, dial or dial+token.

2. Yes can use only the token but if you do only the token you cannot later spend the dial, you can only do 1 of the same command in a ship activation and choosing to spend dial+token is considered 1 command but you can do them in any order if that is what you are asking?

3. No, the decision to "bank" a token from the dial comes after revealing the dial, by this time in the attack that opportunity has passed.

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Thanks for the clarification guys!

 

Yeah, for question #2, basically, can I do the initial roll, use the token to reroll, evaluate the results, and then decide whether to use the dial.  I know, I know, the best answer is "why NOT use the dial?!" but just for argument's sake, is that scenario possible/legal?

 

The flip side of question #2 is to make the initial roll, then use the dial to roll another dice, THEN decide whether to use the token to reroll a dice.

 

I am assuming I can roll my dice then make decisions AFTER seeing the dice results, correct?  I don't have to declare out loud whether I am using the dial, token, dial+token, or token+dial?

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Pretty sure you could, for whatever reason, reroll, and then opt to not even spend the dial.

 

Its definitely possible to use the re-roll on the die you can get from the dial, which does means the steps don't happen simultaneously. And I don't think you actually have to dictate at the start of the command exactly that you are spending the dial or token, only so much that you do have to spend a dial or token.

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Thanks for the clarification guys!

 

Yeah, for question #2, basically, can I do the initial roll, use the token to reroll, evaluate the results, and then decide whether to use the dial.  I know, I know, the best answer is "why NOT use the dial?!" but just for argument's sake, is that scenario possible/legal?

 

The flip side of question #2 is to make the initial roll, then use the dial to roll another dice, THEN decide whether to use the token to reroll a dice.

 

I am assuming I can roll my dice then make decisions AFTER seeing the dice results, correct?  I don't have to declare out loud whether I am using the dial, token, dial+token, or token+dial?

 

Yes, you can roll then reroll, then add the dice, but as you said, why not use it since you will lose it otherwise. Flip side is wayy better incase you roll a blank.

 

Yes, you roll the initial dice pool first, and then make the call as to if you want to use your concentrate fire and which parts of it, so you can roll, use dial, then use token.

Edited by MaverickNZ

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But why not spend it? If you dont its effectively lost.

If it's your first attack, you may want to use it on your second.

 

 

You can't. You can only perform a command (concentrate fire) once per activation - so you cannot use the token in one attack and then the dial in another, they have to be in the same attack.

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But why not spend it? If you dont its effectively lost.

If it's your first attack, you may want to use it on your second.

 

You can't. You can only perform a command (concentrate fire) once per activation - so you cannot use the token in one attack and then the dial in another, they have to be in the same attack.

What this clever fellow said

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Do you not have to declare you are going to use the dial and token together?

Meaning you can't roll the additional dice using the command dial and then decide if you want to use the token.

I've been playing that you have to declare you are using both then you roll the extra dice and could reroll if you wanted but even if you don't then you've lost the token.

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But why not spend it? If you dont its effectively lost.

If it's your first attack, you may want to use it on your second.

 

You can't. You can only perform a command (concentrate fire) once per activation - so you cannot use the token in one attack and then the dial in another, they have to be in the same attack.

Woops, my bad. Skimmed too much and missed that he was talking about a token already getting spent.

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Do you not have to declare you are going to use the dial and token together?

Meaning you can't roll the additional dice using the command dial and then decide if you want to use the token.

I've been playing that you have to declare you are using both then you roll the extra dice and could reroll if you wanted but even if you don't then you've lost the token.

 

I dont see why you would have to, as they are seperate dice addition/modification actions - you roll, see the result and then you reroll, because as long as you use them both within the same attack its still only one combined command. If you dont need to do the reroll then you dont spend the token.

Edited by MaverickNZ

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If you roll the extra die from spending the dial then you have already resolved the concentrate fire command. Since you can't resolve the same command again you can't then decide to resolve the token and reroll a die.

 

If you're saying as long as you do them during the same attack it would allow something like this to happen which doesn't seem right:

 

Roll initial attack dice pool

Resolve Command dial to roll an additional die

Resolve Dominator title to drain shields to roll two additional dice.

Resolve the command token to reroll one of the Dominator dice.

 

Happy to be proven wrong but I still think you have to combine the effects at the point you spend the dial to gain the extra die and a possible reroll which you could use at any point during that attack.

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If you roll the extra die from spending the dial then you have already resolved the concentrate fire command. Since you can't resolve the same command again you can't then decide to resolve the token and reroll a die.

 

If you're saying as long as you do them during the same attack it would allow something like this to happen which doesn't seem right:

 

Roll initial attack dice pool

Resolve Command dial to roll an additional die

Resolve Dominator title to drain shields to roll two additional dice.

Resolve the command token to reroll one of the Dominator dice.

 

Happy to be proven wrong but I still think you have to combine the effects at the point you spend the dial to gain the extra die and a possible reroll which you could use at any point during that attack.

 

The difference in your example is that you are "breaking up" the concentrate fire effects by inserting Dominator in the middle. Whilst Dominator can be resolved at any time during the attack at close to medium range (from the keyword "While" in the RRG), if you put in inbetween the two concentrate fire actions then there is an argument that it becomes two actions, not one.

 

But instead you could certainly

Gather and roll the initial attack pool

Add dice from dominator and roll

Add and roll an extra dice from concentrate fire dial

Use concentrate fire token to reroll one dice.

 

Or

Gather and roll the initial attack pool

Use concentrate fire token to reroll one dice.

Add and roll an extra dice from concentrate fire dial

Add dice from dominator and roll

 

You are still doing them in steps, so could choose to stop after doing one concentrate fire element and not do the other, but they should be done consecutively.

Edited by MaverickNZ

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I was using the dominator example just to break it, I still feel resolving the dial and then resolving the token is two activations of the same command and not allowed.

Think I'll email FFG and see what they have to say.

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AFAIK you have to SPEND the dial and the token at the same time.

 

A ship cannot resolve the same command more than
once per round.
• A ship can spend both a command dial and a command
token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a
single resolution of the command. For example, a ship
can increase its speed twice by spending a M command
dial and a M command token.
 
In the case of gunnery this is during the resolve attack step.
 
3 . Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack
effects as described below:
◊◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the P command.

 

So if you want to use both the dial and the token, now is the time to do so - in either order.

 

You could also spend just the token and let the dial go to waste - you're not forced to use it  but I don't see the point of doing so.

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Yeah we are both agreed on everything you said above. The question is can you roll the extra die for the dial before deciding if you want to spend the token or do you have to declare you are spending the dial and token together before rolling the die.

Edited by Gibbobobo

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Yes, but what he is arguing is if you need to "declare" you are going to spend the dial and token outright, or can you use the dial to roll and extra dice and then go "Oh, I will use my token now too" for the reroll.

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Yeah we are both agreed on everything you said above. The question is can you roll the extra die for the dial before deciding if you want to spend the token or do you have to declare you are spending the dial and token together before rolling the die.

 

Based on the FAQ you'd spend the Dial and the Token at the same time (ie. a single command). Then, after rolling the additional dice you'd choose which (if any) dice to reroll. If at that stage you chose not to reroll anything that's fine, but the token is still spent.

 

 

  • If a ship wants to spend a command dial and token of the same type, does it have to spend them simultaneously?
  • Yes. It must already have both the dial and token, and must spend them together.
 

 

  • If a ship spends a [Concentrate Fire] dial and a [Concentrate Fire] token together, can it reroll the die that it adds? Is it required to reroll a die?
  • It can reroll the die that it adds, and it can choose not to reroll any dice.
Edited by Akhrin

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You MUST spend the dial and the token at sametime. You CANT use one, see the result than choose to use the 2nd or not.

So basically, I can roll the dice, THEN decide if I want to use the command dial.  If I don't want to use it (maybe use it on my second attack), then that's it.  If I want to use it, then I declare that I am using it, pick up the dice, but BEFORE rolling, declare whether I am using the token as well.  If I declare I am using the token, then I roll the extra die, then pick up the die to be re-rolled and re-roll that.  If I declare I am NOT using the token, then I just roll the extra die and that's it.

 

Is that correct?

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You MUST spend the dial and the token at sametime. You CANT use one, see the result than choose to use the 2nd or not.

So basically, I can roll the dice, THEN decide if I want to use the command dial.  If I don't want to use it (maybe use it on my second attack), then that's it.  If I want to use it, then I declare that I am using it, pick up the dice, but BEFORE rolling, declare whether I am using the token as well.  If I declare I am using the token, then I roll the extra die, then pick up the die to be re-rolled and re-roll that.  If I declare I am NOT using the token, then I just roll the extra die and that's it.

 

Is that correct?

 

In the 3rd step of the attack sequence (where you reroll or add dice) you decide if you want to use both (dial and token), just one or none of them. 

Also, you can't perform the same command twice in a round, so if you use Concentrate Fire on your first attack, you can't do it on your 2nd attack

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