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Darth Lupine

ACM vs EL

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So I've seen any number of posts declaring how good assault concussion missiles are versus expanded launchers, and would like to hear some clarification...maybe I'm not getting this right. I do know they work better with Screed, and this part I get.

Two extra black dice are nothing to scoff at...so why are the missiles better?

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2 guaranteed damage from any arc is, on average, better than the probable damage from 2 extra damage.

 

that being said, it depends on which one fits your play style better.

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I think at this stage most people are looking at these two options on a Gladiator, specifically the Demolisher. You're likely to be firing your first shot (before moving) out of the front arc anyway for two red, then swinging round the flank and firing your second shot (after moving, from the title) out of the side.

 

Even if you're not using Demolisher you've hopefully lined up shots from front + side if you're in black range at all on a Gladiator, so ACM helps out on both shots.

 

If you're using a Victory ELs is overkill, you'll struggle to get a lot of shots out of that front arc, and when you do 3 red and 3 black is already pretty respectable. ACMs probably won't see much use, but if they do they'll work with your side arcs against any ships trying to flank you.

 

If you roll the crit (or trade up to it off of Screed) then you're firing at short range, Redirect or Brace can't stop that, and Evade can only force a reroll if the enemy is Rebels using Mon Mothma. So once ACMs trigger there's normally nothing they can do to stop that extra 2 damage.

 

And the Expanded Launcher is 6 points more than the Assault Concussion Missiles.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are people getting good use out of ELs, but if you've got Screed as your commander to guarantee triggering ACMs then I'd take those over the Launchers any day of the week.

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Aside from the 6 point cost difference, it also comes down to firing arcs and Commanders.

Expanded Launchers gives you a possiblity of 4 damage from the front arc only. Most people avoid the front arc on a VSD, so putting them on that ship is overkill. ACM's also work on side and rear arcs, so the extra utilization and opportunity makes them sing.

Expanded Launchers on a Gladiator is solid, but most Gladiator lists run Screed, who guarantees two extra damage with ACM's. If you get into position to shoot two arcs, then you only need to roll one crit to effectively do 4 extra damage. If you can destroy some shields with Squadrons, then often that damage goes straight to the Hull.

Plus, when you think about it this way, ACM+Intel Officer or ACM+Wulf > Expanded Launchers for virtually the same cost.

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yep. But that is less damage that be stopped by redirect. If you are able to shoot a neb in the front at close range with demolisher, move to its side, and shoot again... Bad day for the neb.

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Hmm. Those extra damage are inflicted on shields first, correct?

The extra same is dealt on whatever the adjacent hulls have, be them shields or bare hull.

The only downside to ACM is that you give up the option for a faceup damage card to use them. The upside is that you can use it every attack.

El is more expensive, only activate on the front arc, bit they let you deal face up damage cards

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guaranteed damage > more dice. Every single time.  sure 2 more black dice may give you 4 damage or give you zero.  Assault Conc Missiles also mitigate redirect.  So if you get an accuracy, take out their brace and if they redirect they are giving you damage. 

 

Also the cost.  I feel like ACMs should be 13pts and ELs should be the 6 or 7 lol.

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In theory, a double arc shot with ACM triggers TWICE, causing 4 damage. The expanded launchers add two dice to the front arc, which can do 0-4 (average of 2) damage.

AND Expanded Launchers cost 6 points more.

AND Screed provides a critical 100% of the time which ensures ACM triggers.

Now, if Expanded Launchers were perhaps more of a modification, say Launcher Retrofit, and went in the Turbolaser slot, they would see actual use, as they would give ships access to dice they didn't have. (Could you imagine a CR90B throwing 3 blue and 2 black dice? Ouch)

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Also the cost. I feel like ACMs should be 13pts and ELs should be the 6 or 7 lol.

While I can't argue the fact, I am so happy they are not.

I guess FFG thinks more dice is more important.

Though 5 to 6 black dice in the front arc alone is REALLY scary

Edited by Lyraeus

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It's important to remember that critical effects are resolved AFTER your opponent spends their defense tokens. So after they spend that redirect for your base damage, then they're getting hit on two adjacent hull zones by the ACMs, and per the FAQ, the ACM damage cannot be braced, so no matter what, if you trigger an ACM you're getting actually 3 guarantee damage on a ship. (1 for the initial hit that can't be braced away). At 7 points, it's the most economical choice in the game right now.

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ACM are a bit temperamental, though, especially without skreed

 

they're temperamental in that getting close range shot on non imp ships (vsds are slow **** and gsds want to be close) is very difficult without engine techs and demolisher etc and they're temperamental without skreed because they're not guaranteed.

 

With skreed, though, they're like fireworks: impossible to ignore and very pretty to watch

 

 

maybe EL will find purchase with Insidious when we get to 400 and can field her with her more attractive sister

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The ELs are winning through Screed at least as much as the ACMs. You have more dice meaning more chances for blanks to spend and turn. The EL with Screed will on average inflict more damage than the ACM, if considering a Gladiator frontal arc. And they will be able to deal a faceup damage card (nice boon), but they are still inferior to ACMs, when considering other arcs and the likeliness of getting a good shot when your opponents is on guard. But, unlike ACM, you can herd the opponents ships way better, as you don't get a big no-go zone but rather a well defined no-go arc.

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ACMs are just so powerful. 

 

When you think of the 'Oh no, you can't resolve a crit', that's not the way to think about them.

Instead, you should thing 'My god, instead of a critical damage, I can just get THREE damage instead?!'

 

That is the thing about ACM, it gives you some good flexibility.

 

The way I decide depends on how many shields the defending ship has. If I think that I will not get hull damage with the attack (b/c say my opponent still has redirect and brace tokens), then I generally use the ACM crit effect to take their shields down a little more. If I think I will get hull damage then I may choose to do a standard crit effect, or if the adjacent hull zones don't have shields then I may opt to use ACM for extra damage.

 

The options for ACM let you cover a wider range of situations, where as EL is fairly limited in application.

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The ELs are winning through Screed at least as much as the ACMs. You have more dice meaning more chances for blanks to spend and turn. The EL with Screed will on average inflict more damage than the ACM, if considering a Gladiator frontal arc. And they will be able to deal a faceup damage card (nice boon), but they are still inferior to ACMs, when considering other arcs and the likeliness of getting a good shot when your opponents is on guard. But, unlike ACM, you can herd the opponents ships way better, as you don't get a big no-go zone but rather a well defined no-go arc.

So let's go over the basic math (statistical experts can go over the percentage)

You have a 1 in 4 chance to roll a blank. There is a 1 in 4 chance of rolling regular hit. Lastly, there is a 1 in 4 chance of rolling a crit hit. Now in mathmada theory, if you roll 4 dice you should a mix of all of those.

So the Glad 1 with EL and a CF dial can roll an impressive 6 black dice. So you should end up with 2 of each. So 2 Hit&crit, 2 blanks, and 2 hits. That is 8 damage. Using Screed you can push another 2 damage through. That can be braced to 5 however.

Now ACM on the same Glad 1 can net you 4 black dice with a CF Dial (from front arc though ACM works on the 4 black side wh8ch would be 5 black dice). That can be a Hit&crit, a hit, and 2 blanks for posterity sake. Which is 5 damage before the brace. After brace it is 3 damage AND 1 additional damage to each adjacent hull zone.

So with ACM a Nebulon-B just lost all front and side shields in a single go, a CR90, can redirect BUT it will have no shields left on at least one side, a Space Whale is losing its valuable defense, and a Victory is getting stripped of shields faster than it could repair them. That is just the front arc, imagine if you have arc 2 lined up as well, a second EL trigger is possible.

Now with EL which is 5 straight damage, a Nebulon-B just gained a Face up damage card and a normal damage card, a CR90 just got a single critical, a space whale redirected to one side leaving 2 on the front and 1 on the side, a Victory just redirected and has 1 and 0 for front and side. The downside is your second attack is just normal dice, though it did one hell of a push for damage it is a 1 hit wonder

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Having fielded a 2xGSD2+1xVSD1 list with ACM for all three, I can tell you having 3 black clad ships with ACM firing on the same target is hideously lethal. I've taken ASF2s from fresh and healthy to overkill in 1.5-2 turns with it.

 

The damage boost and the sheer utter annihilation of the targets shields prior to the coup de grâce is absolutely glorious.

 

There comes a point when the rebel realizes that he's got nothing to redirect to, and can't evade, and is about to take 2 extra hull damage even if he braces that's just demoralizing for him.

 

I sup such sorrow like a fine elixir.

Edited by Deathseed

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What's the damage order when using ACM's and defense tokens?

 

1. Roll Dice

2. Make modifications

3. Defense token

4. Resolve critical effects

5. Apply damage

 

So if I deal 4 damage and 1 crit, he braces and reduces that to 3 damage. Then I apply ACM effects to put 1 damage on adjacent hull zones for a total of 5 damage right? You can't use defense tokens against ACM basically.

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What's the damage order when using ACM's and defense tokens?

 

1. Roll Dice

2. Make modifications

3. Defense token

4. Resolve critical effects

5. Apply damage

 

So if I deal 4 damage and 1 crit, he braces and reduces that to 3 damage. Then I apply ACM effects to put 1 damage on adjacent hull zones for a total of 5 damage right? You can't use defense tokens against ACM basically.

 

Correct, ACM's damage is added in the "Resolve Critical Effects" step, which takes place after they spend defense tokens, so the extra damage is unavoidable on their part.

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Think of ACM as a one two punch combo. It is amazing with double arcs and it's 2 damage is unavoidable which is perfect.

No EL is like a hard right. It hurts like hell but it is not a knockout punch on its own

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