Pre mesauring with Fingers?

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Measurement and movement is just as much a function of the game as the stats behind it. What information you have available to you at any given time is only relevant within the ruleset.

But if you'd like a more anagolous, but no less absurd comparison, we need look know further then pre-measuring maneuvers.

The rules tell us that during the Planning Phase that a player may not use the templates to test possible options and instead must estimate. The rules do not, however tell us that a player can't use the templates (or another device) during the End Phase or Activation Phase or Combat Phase in order to test out possible positions. So on that basis would I be allowed to do so?

The competitive rules for aquiring a Target lock tell us that if you measure range and the prospective target is within range you must take the lock. But the rules don't say I can't pull out a tape measure or walk my hand span across the board to get a sense of the distance before actually attempting the Target Lock. So on that basis is the legality of what I am suggesting somehow up in the air?

The answers are clearly no. No reasonable person could assert otherwise. The issue at hand is no different. No reasonable person has any grounds to assert that the rules, in any way, allow the pre-measurement of action related movements through any means, even if non-template.

Edited June 1, 2015 by ScottieATF

[WWHSD 9,273]

Measurement and movement is just as much a function of the game as the stats behind it. What information you have available to you at any given time is only relevant within the ruleset.

But if you'd like a more anagolous, but no less absurd comparison, we need look know further then pre-measuring maneuvers.

The rules tell us that during the Planning Phase that a player may not use the templates to test possible options and instead must estimate. The rules do not, however tell us that a player can't use the templates (or another device) during the End Phase or Activation Phase or Combat Phase in order to test out possible positions. So on that basis would I be allowed to do so?

The competitive rules for aquiring a Target lock tell us that if you measure range and the prospective target is within range you must take the lock. But the rules don't say I can't pull out a tape measure or walk my hand span across the board to get a sense of the distance before actually attempting the Target Lock. So on that basis is the legality of what I am suggesting somehow up in the air?

The answers are clearly no. No reasonable person could assert otherwise. The issue at hand is no different. No reasonable person has any grounds to assert that the rules, in any way, allow the pre-measurement of action related movements through any means, even if non-template.

 

The email is in response to a player placing his finger on the mat at the spot that he predicts his action will place the ship and using that as a visual reference point while deciding if he wants to commit to an action. Would you object to that player using a laser pointer to point to the same spot on the table? I don't really see how this is any different than walking around the side of the table to get a different vantage point. If both players are able to do it, it doesn't convey an advantage to either of them.

 

 

On that note, I'm done. I've just realized that I've already had this argument with you and Klutz in the past. You guys win. Anyone that touches the mat should be blackballed and banned from organized play because they are dirty cheaters.

Edited June 1, 2015 by WWHSD

[Klutz 1,590]

I don't think we disagree. I think we are just speaking in circles around each other. I'm refuting that RAW is not cut and dried as several other posters are claiming.

Oh, on that point we totally agree!

The RAW are certainly not cut and dry. I think our disagreement simply comes from the weight we're willing to give Alex's e-mail response. I tend to give it as much value as a FAQ entry.

 

Of course, you can't expect everyone to know of all the e-mails Alex Davy has sent out. And, in the case mentioned long ago in the OP, it is quite possible that neither of the players, nor the TO knew of the Alex Davy's e-mail ruling on the fingers-on-the-table issue and, without said e-mail, the rules are quite unclear.

 

 

Anyone that touches the mat should be blackballed and banned from organized play because they are dirty cheaters.

 

That's a little harsh.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I tend to give it as much value as a FAQ entry.

 

Of course, you can't expect everyone to know of all the e-mails Alex Davy has sent out.

I think that's the whole point WWHSD is trying to make. Of course we can treat a email from Alex as proof of RAI, and treat it accordingly. But it is not in the FAQ that means not everyone will even know about it.

Due to that reason alone, Alex's email is de facto inferior to a FAQ ruling, simply due to the fact that few people will know about it. The tournament rules state you must be familiar with the rules and FAQ, but doesn't say anything about emails sent to players.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Anyone that touches the mat should be blackballed and banned from organized play because they are dirty cheaters.

 

That's a little harsh.

 

 

and hyperbolic.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

I tend to give it as much value as a FAQ entry. Of course, you can't expect everyone to know of all the e-mails Alex Davy has sent out.

I think that's the whole point WWHSD is trying to make. Of course we can treat a email from Alex as proof of RAI, and treat it accordingly. But it is not in the FAQ that means not everyone will even know about it.Due to that reason alone, Alex's email is de facto inferior to a FAQ ruling, simply due to the fact that few people will know about it. The tournament rules state you must be familiar with the rules and FAQ, but doesn't say anything about emails sent to players.

And what I have been saying is that you do not need a designer email to know that pre-measuring in that manner is something not allowed by the rules. Not anymore then you need a designer email to know you can't pre-measure your movements during the end phase. Simply reading the Rules and FAQ would be enough to conclude that nowhere in either are you given the ability to measure in that manner or in that frame of time. Therefore the only reasonable conclusion would be that doing so would be playing outside/abusing the rules.

[eagletsi111 1,115]

This happened in the Alanta finals several time too.

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

[Parravon 5,217]

This happened in the Alanta finals several time too.

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

It seems that some TOs feel they shouldn't step in unless asked to by one of the players, which I personally think is wrong. They should intervene if they witness a player doing something that is against the rules of the game. A referee in a football game does, why not a TO in an X-wing game?

[ScottieATF 2,867]

TOs also don't see all. Even if pro-active in observing games.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Why don't TO's stop it.

They also have to know that something is happening that is against the rules. I think Alex's stance makes the issue clear but not every TO is going to have seen Alex's emails or have thought about if using fingers is against the rules or not.

[eagletsi111 1,115]

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

They also have to know that something is happening that is against the rules. I think Alex's stance makes the issue clear but not every TO is going to have seen Alex's emails or have thought about if using fingers is against the rules or not.

 

 

Shame on the TO for not keeping up to date on the rules or regulations.     Being a TO is much more than getting the stat sheets and keeping track of info.   It requires you to make rules judgments and stop cheating.       Sometime these things are on film and people do this on film.     How can they not have seen it or even thought is was legal.   Since everything else in the game prohibits this type of behavior.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

They also have to know that something is happening that is against the rules. I think Alex's stance makes the issue clear but not every TO is going to have seen Alex's emails or have thought about if using fingers is against the rules or not.

 

 

 

This happened in the Alanta finals several time too.

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

It seems that some TOs feel they shouldn't step in unless asked to by one of the players, which I personally think is wrong. They should intervene if they witness a player doing something that is against the rules of the game. A referee in a football game does, why not a TO in an X-wing game?

 

 

A TO isn't really a direct analog to a referee though, are they?

 

I see a TO as being responsible for organizing the event, managing brackets, performing other administration tasks, and arbitrating disputes between players as an uninterested third party. A referee's primary duty is to enforce the rules. They watch a single match and even then there is usually a team of them for each match. Most sports have ways for referees to make calls on technical penalties that either do not interrupt the flow of the game (throwing a flag)  or shorten play time (stopping the clock). Nothing like that exists in X-Wing. A TO coming over to the table takes time away from both players. 

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

Why don't TO's stop it.

They also have to know that something is happening that is against the rules. I think Alex's stance makes the issue clear but not every TO is going to have seen Alex's emails or have thought about if using fingers is against the rules or not.

 

 

Shame on the TO for not keeping up to date on the rules or regulations.     Being a TO is much more than getting the stat sheets and keeping track of info.   It requires you to make rules judgments and stop cheating.       Sometime these things are on film and people do this on film.     How can they not have seen it or even thought is was legal.   Since everything else in the game prohibits this type of behavior.

 

 

Being familiar with the official FAQ and Rules should be sufficient. Why should they need to scour forums? It's not like this is a paid position or one that people are fighting over. TOs are volunteers that are working hard so that grown-ass men can have fun playing with little plastic spaceships. They deserve our appreciation for giving their time to make X-Wing events possible.

Edited June 3, 2015 by WWHSD

[Klutz 1,590]

A TO isn't really a direct analog to a referee though, are they?

 

I see a TO as being responsible for organizing the event, managing brackets, performing other administration tasks, and arbitrating disputes between players as an uninterested third party. A referee's primary duty is to enforce the rules. They watch a single match and even then there is usually a team of them for each match. Most sports have ways for referees to make calls on technical penalties that either do not interrupt the flow of the game (throwing a flag)  or shorten play time (stopping the clock). Nothing like that exists in X-Wing. A TO coming over to the table takes time away from both players. 

 

Being familiar with the official FAQ and Rules should be sufficient. Why should they need to scour forums? It's not like this is a paid position or one that people are fighting over. TOs are volunteers that are working hard so that grown-ass men can have fun playing with little plastic spaceships. They deserve our appreciation for giving their time to make X-Wing events possible.

 

 

I agree with WWHSD on both of these points.

[eagletsi111 1,115]

Some people do it without even realizing it.   I have told others during games and they thank me.    Sometimes they don't even know they are doing it.

 

 

It's like how some people talk with their hands, they can't help it.