Pre mesauring with Fingers?

[De Bad Wolf 61]

While watching the MN Regional finals on twitch I notice the guy playing double agressors aka Bro Bots was using his fingers to premeasure his boost.   And with a top down view his positions of his figures looks very accurate to the space of a 2 bank.   Several people called it out on twitch comments like: "Bad form" and "Judge are you going to call that?"    Was hoping to find a video of it.    I highly doubt it is allowed as FFG has gone to the extent that you cant even bring your own maps to play on it in fears you could possible be familiar enough with the map to premesaure in your head.   I was very surprise being the finals with 2 judges watching.  People crying on on twitch nothing was done.    So is it legal?

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by De Bad Wolf

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

There was a four-page thread on this a couple of months ago. An e-mail response from Alex Davy said:

Rules Question:

Are players, in tournament play, permitted to put their finger/hand down on the play mat to visualize the position of their ship after a boost, barrel roll, decloak, or maneuver?

 

Example: If I'm flying a TIE Interceptor, can I put my finger down where I think a Barrel Roll will put me?

Or does this fall under the "players may not pre-measure and may only use their eyes" rule?

 

Response:

It does. Players should refrain from using their hands or fingers to make any measurements in strict tournament play.

 

Cheers,

Alex Davy

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

[ScottieATF 2,867]

This has been discussed before. You are not allowed to pre-measure in any way. Templates, fingers, sextant, whatever. This is straight from FFG you are to estimate your final position using your eyes only, you are not permitted to space out your fingers to measure your moves.

The player doing so was cheating, his opponent should have called him on it. The judges certainly should have called him on it, they neglected thier duties.

Assuming your depection of the events is accurate of course.

Edited May 27, 2015 by ScottieATF

[VanorDM 11,599]

The MN regionals was held at the FFG Event center, I was there for it. The judge was there to settle disputes but didn't seem to watch many matches.

So I'm guessing the other guy must of not thought anything of it.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

FFG judging isn't always thier strong suit.

[Ayleron 204]

Was it

Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn-A9-P2ztw

? The commentator believes it is ok, but I disagree with him, it's definitely not ok.

[Deltmi 786]

The MN regionals was held at the FFG Event center, I was there for it. The judge was there to settle disputes but didn't seem to watch many matches.

So I'm guessing the other guy must of not thought anything of it.

I think this is something that the TO should announce at the beginning of the tournament. Just so everyone understands it is illegal, and will limit putting a player in an awkward position of calling out his opponent. 

[Hobojebus 11,341]

I think if you use your fingers you need to lose em Yakuza style.

[Tuls 215]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

Edited May 27, 2015 by WWHSD

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'm curious, if one of the participants doesn't want the match to be streamed what are their options? Is the venue that is hosting the event able to force a forfeit of the match?

Edited May 28, 2015 by WWHSD

[Slugrage 5,011]

I know that the width of my four fingers is exactly (or close enough to not matter) to be a 2-straight. It's a huge tactical advantage if I were to do it. I had it done to me in my first tournament that my opponent was routinely pre-measuring with his fingers before committing to a maneuver.

[Parravon 5,217]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

I wouldn't consider this to be a minor infraction. A major part of the game is estimation of maneuvers. And anyone umpiring a game should intervene if this is happening.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

I wouldn't consider this to be a minor infraction. A major part of the game is estimation of maneuvers. And anyone umpiring a game should intervene if this is happening.

 

 

I wouldn't consider it a big deal if my opponent was doing something like that before deciding to boost as long as he was quick about it and not being an ass. It seems like the sort of thing that should be more the wronged player's prerogative, like letting your opponent take a token that they missed the opportunity for.

Edited May 28, 2015 by WWHSD

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

I wouldn't consider this to be a minor infraction. A major part of the game is estimation of maneuvers. And anyone umpiring a game should intervene if this is happening.

I agree it's outright cheating and if caught first time should be a warning second time a DQ.

[DanDoulogos 753]

I am glad that Alex Davy expounded the original intention in a way that made the intention of the design team clear (measuring with hands is a no-no).

 

Unfortunately, if the clarification mentioned in that off-hand (pun intended) email reply does not find its way into an FAQ or some other official document, I expect the matter be left to the discretion of the judge in charge of the tournament - who may or may not be as informed on this matter as those who have read this (or the other) thread.

 

I personally have never seen this done, or if I have, I haven't recognized it as such - but now that I know, I will not only keep an eye out for it, but I will guard against putting my hands on the map in situations where my doing so may be construed as an attempt to clandestinely estimate a move etc. 

[TasteTheRainbow 8,726]

Tbh I think that player didn't know it wasn't legal. He also didn't know about other measuring rules. Once he was informed about that rule by his opponent(wasn't his opponent the OP of this thread?) he started to do it once in a future game and stopped himself.

A lot of local communities have a really lax approach to rules like that.

[TasteTheRainbow 8,726]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

Agreed. There's nothing worse than having a pack of people who aren't playing getting in a tizzy every time your dice bump an asteroid.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'm curious, if one of the participants doesn't want the match to be streamed what are their options?

Hard to say. Most likely they'd just pick someone else to have the match streamed if the person they picked at random didn't want it.

I can't imagine anyone would force a forfeit over it, because if you did that you'd still have to find another game to stream.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

During a round a Judge/TO has absolutely nothing better to do then ensure that players are following the rules and not cheating.

That an opponent doesn't catch a player does not give them licence to cheat, and there absolutely needs to be more accountability then to just the opponents ability or willingness to catch it and call it out.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

Agreed. There's nothing worse than having a pack of people who aren't playing getting in a tizzy every time your dice bump an asteroid.

That isn't a valid comparison.

You're talking about a dice that may or may not be cracked, we are talking about a player playing specifically contrary to the rules of the game.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

 

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions.

 

If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

During a round a Judge/TO has absolutely nothing better to do then ensure that players are following the rules and not cheating.

That an opponent doesn't catch a player does not give them licence to cheat, and there absolutely needs to be more accountability then to just the opponents ability or willingness to catch it and call it out.

As things stand, it doesn't matter whether it's a minor infraction or a major one: if no one calls the TO over, then the TO is unlikely to see it. And that's especially true when you have a couple dozen tables and two or three judges. They don't have anything better to do, but that doesn't make them omniscient.

So you're absolutely right that people shouldn't perceive that as a license to cheat (or even a licence). But realistically, the only alternatives to the kind of situation the OP poses seem to be either having a TO at every table or building a culture where it's okay to call the TO over even for "minor infractions".

[DailyRich 3,346]

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match...

 

For what it's worth, TV viewers have notified the PGA of rules violations they've noticed during televised golf tournaments, and the PGA has acted on those notifications and penalized golfers.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Haven't watched the video. But over head and just watching it is easier to see. While playing (Thinking of next moves, actions etc) and at the opposite angle of the cheater it could be hard to pick up. But if word was able to make it from any spectator on-line or in person and the judge ignored it and didn't bother to check. Well that should be addressed for future games.

Internet spectators should have zero impact on a match and judges have better things to do than walk around looking for minor infractions. If his opponent doesn't call him out on it everyone else should butt out.

During a round a Judge/TO has absolutely nothing better to do then ensure that players are following the rules and not cheating.That an opponent doesn't catch a player does not give them licence to cheat, and there absolutely needs to be more accountability then to just the opponents ability or willingness to catch it and call it out.

As things stand, it doesn't matter whether it's a minor infraction or a major one: if no one calls the TO over, then the TO is unlikely to see it. And that's especially true when you have a couple dozen tables and two or three judges. They don't have anything better to do, but that doesn't make them omniscient.So you're absolutely right that people shouldn't perceive that as a license to cheat (or even a licence). But realistically, the only alternatives to the kind of situation the OP poses seem to be either having a TO at every table or building a culture where it's okay to call the TO over even for "minor infractions".

And building that culture isn't going to happen if people take the stance that a TO/Judge's responsibility isn't pro-actively catching players violating rules during the games. Or if people act as if it isn't in the games interest to have others pointing out blatant rules violations like this.

Judges aren't going to catch everything, but they are there to catch things. Not just sit and look pretty, though I am great at that.

Edited May 28, 2015 by ScottieATF

[VanorDM 11,599]

that a TO/Judge's responsibility isn't pro-actively catching players violating rules during the games.

If I'm a judge at an event I'd feel no need for someone to call me over if I saw someone doing something they shouldn't.

As for people watching. If there's no TO watching, and you quietly mention to the TO that something a bit fishy seems to be going on, that's one thing. But if the TO is watching and not saying anything then people need to keep their opinions to themselves, because even if a rule is being broken, it's up to the TO/Judge to enforce the rules.