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RebelDave

How do you reconcile the Mandalorians?

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OK, I am NOT lamenting the change to canon, I am NOT reopening the debate over a certain Author.

 

I am simply looking for how you have all reconciled the Mandalorian History in your games.

 

 

To clarify.

 

Ive just finished watching the Mandalorian Story arc in Clone Wars (Im about half way through Season 2, and I know there is more to come).

 

I Have read the Wookieepedia articles on Canon Mandalorians, and Legends Mandalorian History up to the Clone Wars (not beyond).

 

Clearly, there is a HUGE wealth of Legends Material, and not very much Canon material.

The Legends material does a reasonable job of show horning all the Legends and Canon stuff together, some of it is stronger than others.

 

So, some points for summery:

CANON: Mandalorians are Humans, from Mandalore

LEGENDS: Mandalorian is a culture that absorbs people and species from all over.

CANON: Mandalorians USED to be Warmongering, but became pacifists after their civil war, with the exception of a few who refused, and were sent to Condcordia.

LEGENDS: You are New Mandalorians (Canon), TRUE Mandalorians (Under Jango), and Death Watch

 

Questions.

Is Jango a Mandalorian? Or simply using their armour? (His Wookieepedia entry suggests he is seen as a pretender) I recall he was referred to as a Mandalorian in Ep2? (But could that simply be because he was wearing Mandalorian Battle Armour?)

 

In Legends, Jango, as leader of the Mandalorians was betrayed by Tor Visla and sold out to the Jedi, his men were killed by Count Dooku. Yet this same man (Dooku) who butchered his man, Hired him to be the template of the Clone Army?

Why would Jango agree to that, given his code of conduct as a Mandalorian, agree to work for the man who killed his men? (He must have known it was the same man, under a different name unless he is beard blind? Or simply driven by money more than honour at this point?)

 

Jango is also clearly working FOR the Separatists, hes taking orders from Dooku (Again, WHY? As above), during the first battle of Geonosis where he dies.

 

Since its clear now Jango is in the pay of Dooku, would it not cast some huge concerns over the Clone Army? Whose progenitor genetics was from a man working FOR the Enemy?

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Me, I just ignore all the canon kerfuffle and do whatever suits my game. I use occram's razor pretty heavily here - whatever is simple and makes the most sense to me flies in my game.

 

Mind you, it doesn't really effect me much. My game being some 3,000 years prior to Yavin, where the Mandos are running around at full power being a bunch of Proud Warrior Race Guys - but even if I was playing a modern game, I'd play fast and loose with what canon says. I am the GM, not Wookieepedia. 

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The Mandalorians are just some long lost warrior culture that has faded into obscurity. Sometimes remnants of their culture surface here or there.

I prefer this one to what is in canon. It also depends on the time period the OP is referring to. If we're talking post-Clone Wars, then they are non-existent and ours to do with as we please :)

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Mandalorians in my game had a resurgence of the warrior age after their civil war, which didn't help in the slightest when they were occupied by the Empire.

Which quickly clamped down on the **** toot sweet, since literally bo one wanted to see that again, not that the Mandos ever have a chance of being a galactic power again.

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Questions.

Is Jango a Mandalorian? Or simply using their armour?

80% sure George made the call in CW Jango is just a dude with awesome fashion taste. Pretty sure the movies never refer to him as anything beyond "bounty hunter" (I did a search of the script, so I may have missed it)

 

 

In Legends, Jango, as leader of the Mandalorians was betrayed by Tor Visla and sold out to the Jedi, his men were killed by Count Dooku. Yet this same man (Dooku) who butchered his man, Hired him to be the template of the Clone Army?

Why would Jango agree to that, given his code of conduct as a Mandalorian, agree to work for the man who killed his men? (He must have known it was the same man, under a different name unless he is beard blind? Or simply driven by money more than honour at this point?)

I'm not a canon junkie, so I dunno, but possibly options:

1) Ditch it. Jango wasn't the guy.

2) Jango-schmango. The Jango that trained the clones was a different Jango. Jango is the John, and Fett the Smith of the Mando book of baby names.

3) Betrayal high five! Jango was betrayed by Vizla and the Dooku thing went down. However with Mandalore going all hippy mode, they also disowned any Mando's not willing to turn their swords into plowshares. Jango's feelings are sufficiently hurt that he sees the clone army and Boba as a way of keeping the warrior thing going in a nondeathwatch kind of way. Dooku was tricked into the previous incident and so there's nothing too personal there compared to being disowned "his people". This would also allow for Jango to be simultaneously Mando and Not Mando.

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I treat the Mandalorians as a very fractured and clannish people and culture.  Not dissimilar to Earth's Mongals, Normans or Saxons.  Planets they've colonized, or even regions of their own homeworld, have evolved into vastly different societies that are based partly on this shared past, and partly on what ever was there before or came again after to such a point where there is no group that is more 'pure' mandalorian than any other - they're all just social evolutions from a nearly prehistoric social ancestor.  

 

Pacifist mandalorians are a city of beings who are reacting to some of the constant intra clan wars by trying to be the exact opposite. (similar movements have occurred on earth before) They would be galactically unimportant had they not applied to represent their planet in the Republic, which accepted for entirely political reasons.  Deathwatch and such are militant groups or clans that draw in the violent among the population in search of meaning through violence.  Somewhere inbetween is your average Mandalorian colonist, who isn't that different from anyone else trying to make a living in the galaxy.  

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I treat the Mandalorians as a very fractured and clannish people and culture.  Not dissimilar to Earth's Mongals, Normans or Saxons.  Planets they've colonized, or even regions of their own homeworld, have evolved into vastly different societies that are based partly on this shared past, and partly on what ever was there before or came again after to such a point where there is no group that is more 'pure' mandalorian than any other - they're all just social evolutions from a nearly prehistoric social ancestor.  

 

Pacifist mandalorians are a city of beings who are reacting to some of the constant intra clan wars by trying to be the exact opposite. (similar movements have occurred on earth before) They would be galactically unimportant had they not applied to represent their planet in the Republic, which accepted for entirely political reasons.  Deathwatch and such are militant groups or clans that draw in the violent among the population in search of meaning through violence.  Somewhere inbetween is your average Mandalorian colonist, who isn't that different from anyone else trying to make a living in the galaxy.  

 

This is more-or-less the Legends line too, if you take into account that stories about quiet and hardworking homesteaders on a galactic backwater don't sell as well as stories about die-hard mercenaries and bounty hunters from that same planet, and stories about idealists trying to overcome their destructive cultural heritage need that cultural heritage to be firmly established first.  Even with the wealth of Legends material, you're only going to see the most interesting and prominent stuff about each planet and culture.

 

So I go with "failed interstellar military power that has collapsed into a diaspora of nomads and homesteaders, but whose mercenaries and armorsmiths still maintain the skills and traditions of their predecessors".

Edited by Joker Two

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Questions.

Is Jango a Mandalorian? Or simply using their armour?

80% sure George made the call in CW Jango is just a dude with awesome fashion taste. Pretty sure the movies never refer to him as anything beyond "bounty hunter" (I did a search of the script, so I may have missed it)

 

 

snip

 

 

 

I think that because Jango is Boba's father and Boba is commonly associated with Mandalorians, people assume Jango was too.

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I like how the Mandalorians have been portrayed throughout the Legends and Canon continuities.  You had the True Mandalorians, which Jango Fett, Kal Skirata, Valon Vau and others belonged to, who were the nomadic Supercommandos.  Then you had the New Mandalorians, the pacifists led by Satine Kryze that wanted to rebuild the Mandalorian name in a different light.  And then you had the Death Watch, who seem to aspire to the Mandalorians of the KOTOR age, warmongers trying to conquer the galaxy.

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I quite like the clone wars treatment of the mandalorians. The death watch trying to hold onto the, as I saw it, martial tradition of being space Vikings. I want to see imperial occupied Mandalore. Sabine did mention there was an academy there. Would be interesting to see death watch versus the imperials. They are rebelling, but don't care about the forming alliance.

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My thoughts: They are like the Mongolians, a once great warrior people much diminished. 

However, in the aftermath of Death Watch seizing control of Mandalore, Maul, uh, "disappearing", Duchess Satine Kryze dying, and Bo-Katan Kryze leading the "loyalist" Death Watch against Maul's Death Watch (and the likely ensuing GAR occupation-***-peacekeeping force).... The warrior culture of Mandalore will have been restored with now Duchess Bo-Katan Kryze ruling the planet - but they will be kept on a short, pro-Imperial leash, with their warrior culture at least partially subverted to serve the Empire. 

ETA: The Mandalorians have a history of being famed Jedi hunters. It makes sense that the Empire would take advantage of such reputations and utilize Mandalorians as trainers in particular for specialized Jedi hunting units (although with the near-extinction of the Jedi Order by the battle of Yavin, such is no longer as necessary as it once was). I imagine Bo-Katan and her Mandalorians being treated like any other semi-autonomous part of the Empire, like the Corporate Sector and Hapes. Without having seen much of Rebels, I don't know more about the situation with the Mandalorians or on Mandalore, but the Mandalorians are largely left to their own devices, so long as it does not conflict with the Empire's policy objectives (and, as a warrior culture, the Mandalorians would likely have a good deal of synergy with Imperial policy, with the best serving in the Empire much as Gurkhas and the French Foreign Legion do in the British and French armed forces, as pseudo-mercenary groups with an enviable reputation that might even put the Imperial Stormtrooper Corps to shame). 

Some Mandalorian warriors, bolstered by Mandalorians retired from Imperial service, would serve to protect Mandalore, Concordia, and other Mandalorian settlements and colonies. While clans and individuals out of favor (and those who simply find guard duty boring) might hit the black to seek their fortunes as mercenaries and bounty hunters. (Those Mandalorians that sided with Maul and his forces against Bo-Katan would likely be among those living in exile, perhaps establishing new colonies and politically distinct from Bo-Katan's Mandalorians but still culturally Mandalorian. Which in turn might set up an interesting parallel between the Mandalorians following the Clone Wars and during the Galactic Civil War with how the Sith and Dark Jedi came to be in Legends.)

I really want some "And in time, Bo-Katan became duchess by her own hand"-type fanart, now. 

conan-throne.jpg

ETA2: This would put Satine's peace-loving New Mandalorians as basically being extinct or assimilated into other Mandalorian political factions. Although Bo-Katan might embrace some of her sister's philosophy that might impact Mandalorians warriors such that they prefer peace to war... but to mistake such preference as some sort of weakness is foolish. Sort of a samurai/zen-like "peaceful warrior" mentality. (Not at all like the Jedi. The Mandalorians are violent and proud of it. They are the rough beings that do violence on behalf of others, that they might sleep peacefully at night.)

Edited by Vigil

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In Legends, Jango, as leader of the Mandalorians was betrayed by Tor Visla and sold out to the Jedi, his men were killed by Count Dooku. Yet this same man (Dooku) who butchered his man, Hired him to be the template of the Clone Army?

Just my personal opinion, but I don’t think Jango knew that it was Dooku that was behind the clone army. It was Sifo-Dyas who went to Camino and got the clone army going, and presumably Sifo-Dyas who chose Jango to be the genetic template.

Why would Jango agree to that, given his code of conduct as a Mandalorian, agree to work for the man who killed his men? (He must have known it was the same man, under a different name unless he is beard blind? Or simply driven by money more than honour at this point?)

 

Jango is also clearly working FOR the Separatists, hes taking orders from Dooku (Again, WHY? As above), during the first battle of Geonosis where he dies.

 

Since its clear now Jango is in the pay of Dooku, would it not cast some huge concerns over the Clone Army? Whose progenitor genetics was from a man working FOR the Enemy?

My view is that Dooku dealt with Jango at arms length via the pretext of Sifo-Dyas, and Jango never knew.

Or maybe he never knew that it was Dooku who killed his men.

Or maybe he might have suspected one way or the other, and so he might have been willing to continue to work with Dooku as a way to try to get hard evidence.

There’s lots of ways you can spin this one to make it plausible.

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In Legends, Jango, as leader of the Mandalorians was betrayed by Tor Visla and sold out to the Jedi, his men were killed by Count Dooku. Yet this same man (Dooku) who butchered his man, Hired him to be the template of the Clone Army?

Just my personal opinion, but I don’t think Jango knew that it was Dooku that was behind the clone army. It was Sifo-Dyas who went to Camino and got the clone army going, and presumably Sifo-Dyas who chose Jango to be the genetic template.

Why would Jango agree to that, given his code of conduct as a Mandalorian, agree to work for the man who killed his men? (He must have known it was the same man, under a different name unless he is beard blind? Or simply driven by money more than honour at this point?)

 

Jango is also clearly working FOR the Separatists, hes taking orders from Dooku (Again, WHY? As above), during the first battle of Geonosis where he dies.

 

Since its clear now Jango is in the pay of Dooku, would it not cast some huge concerns over the Clone Army? Whose progenitor genetics was from a man working FOR the Enemy?

My view is that Dooku dealt with Jango at arms length via the pretext of Sifo-Dyas, and Jango never knew.

Or maybe he never knew that it was Dooku who killed his men.

Or maybe he might have suspected one way or the other, and so he might have been willing to continue to work with Dooku as a way to try to get hard evidence.

There’s lots of ways you can spin this one to make it plausible.

 

I'm of the view that the Battle of Galidraan, where Jango's True Mandalorians were defeated by Dooku and his Jedi cadre, was instigated by Tor Vizsla.  Jango may have never seen Dooku as Dooku would have been a few years younger.  Also Jango said he was hired by a man called Tyrannus, who we know is Dooku's Sith alter-ego, to be the source of genetic material for the clone army.  Jango may not have known who Tyrannus really was and I doubt Dooku would know either.

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I'm of the view that the Battle of Galidraan, where Jango's True Mandalorians were defeated by Dooku and his Jedi cadre, was instigated by Tor Vizsla.  Jango may have never seen Dooku as Dooku would have been a few years younger.  Also Jango said he was hired by a man called Tyrannus, who we know is Dooku's Sith alter-ego, to be the source of genetic material for the clone army.  Jango may not have known who Tyrannus really was and I doubt Dooku would know either.

 

We also see Jango take orders from Dooku at the Geonosis arena. Even acting as something of a bodyguard.

 

As for the Mandalorians. You can go canon, non-canon, or a mix of the two (my preferred method), as long as your players aren't expecting them to be one way, and you are portraying them another. Even then, this only becomes a problem if your players are canon junkies.

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I prefer the canon version, but you can always say that the Legends versions is a scision of the Mandalorian. Here in the Earth you cannot say that everyone practices animism, but a smal scisions just practices it.

 

Do the same with Mandalorians if you wish :D It would be interesting.

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My take is the same as so many others: Mandalorians are a complicated people with a complicated history. They were a warrior race (definitely human) who hit their peak a couple millennia ago and have been slowly losing galactic relevance as the many worlds got tired of constant warfare and wanted peace. Some part of the Mandalorians agreed, while others believed it was more important to stand by their traditions.

 

They were probably able to co-exist for a little while, but eventually tensions ran too high, blood was spilled, and there was a schism. Mandalore is a big enough planet to support multiple ideologies, including multiple biomes, so the parties fell along geographic lines. That the pacifists ended up in the irradiated desert could be due to an early setback in the civil war or a symbolic choice to represent why they should stop fighting, or probably both. The instigators/direct losers of the civil war were banished to Concordia. Those who didn't agree with the peaceful Mandos or weren't welcome anymore resettled on a different part of the planet. Life went on.

 

Then came the Clone Wars. The Republic only recognized the Mandalorians who had sought peace, and in so doing guaranteed their ruination. The events concerning the Death Watch, the Shadow Collective, and the takeover of Mandalore fractured the pacifists to almost nothing and left the planet in near-constant strife until the Empire arrived. Grateful for the measure of control the Imperials offered, the pacifists allowed themselves to be placed under its rule.

 

The warrior Mandos probably didn't like the idea of being occupied or controlled, and so some of them may have offered resistance. However, many also saw the Empire for what it was: a war-centric culture. It probably gave them hope to reclaim some of their lost glory, and they took advantage of this fact.

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I'm of the view that the Battle of Galidraan, where Jango's True Mandalorians were defeated by Dooku and his Jedi cadre, was instigated by Tor Vizsla.  Jango may have never seen Dooku as Dooku would have been a few years younger.  Also Jango said he was hired by a man called Tyrannus, who we know is Dooku's Sith alter-ego, to be the source of genetic material for the clone army.  Jango may not have known who Tyrannus really was and I doubt Dooku would know either.

 

We also see Jango take orders from Dooku at the Geonosis arena. Even acting as something of a bodyguard.

 

As for the Mandalorians. You can go canon, non-canon, or a mix of the two (my preferred method), as long as your players aren't expecting them to be one way, and you are portraying them another. Even then, this only becomes a problem if your players are canon junkies.

 

Easily solved... their characters just don't have the history right... It is a big galaxy after all.

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I think I'm paraphrasing Dave Filoni, but having an entire planet of Boba Fetts makes Boba Fett a bit less cool. I like the Canon approach more; a planet that once devoted itself to warfare that nearly wiped itself out has become strictly pacifistic but a fringe community of warriors is causing problems for the galaxy at large.

 

The fact that Jango could get a set of armor away from a Death Watch member makes him much more cool - and scummier - than if he was simply a Mandalorian warrior who decided to capture bounties for some reason. 

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As someone who always associated Mandalorians with being bounty hunters - since, you know, Jango and Boba Fett - I've never had a problem with the idea. 

If you're a Mandalorian warrior in a galaxy at peace, how do you fight as a Mandalorian warrior without becoming the sort of violent extremist that largely comprised Death Watch? By finding a way to fight as a Mandalorian should: By becoming a bounty hunter. Obviously, you could just be a mercenary, but there's not much call for mercenary work in a galaxy at peace. Except working as hired muscle for criminals (like Canderous Ordo), with the obvious hit to personal image. Or serving as a soldier or law enforcement officer - which requires that one adhere to a code of ethics that may be similar to, but still foreign, to the Mandalorian warrior code, unless service involves being in a specialized all-Mandalorian unit, like Cossacks and Gurkhas. Perhaps perversely, the Rebellion would be more likely to support all-Mandalorian units than the Empire (although I think the Empire could just as easily take advantage of such units - having Mandalorians serving in the Empire as Mandalorians just doesn't gel very well with the image of faceless, uniform legions the Empire wants to present to the galaxy, despite what I said last night). 

Much of the galaxy may view bounty hunters as scum - but Mandalorians don't exactly have a shiny reputation and may themselves view bounty hunting in a completely different light, much as Trandoshans do. 

ETA: For some Mandalorians, given the troubles sewn on their world by the criminal organizations of the Hutts, Pykes, and Black Sun (and possibly also the Sith - to potentially include both the Emperor and Darth Vader - although they might respect Vader's prowess and hold no grudge, or recognize the improbability of taking down either the Emperor or Vader, in addition to the Empire likely being the ones to pay their bounties and the Emperor actually directly albeit possibly unintentionally assisting Bo-Katan against Maul) may view bounty hunting as a legitimate path for continuing the conflict against Maul's allies; a lawful alternative to operating as vigilantes. 

Edited by Vigil

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I think I'm paraphrasing Dave Filoni, but having an entire planet of Boba Fetts makes Boba Fett a bit less cool.

 

Chewbacca might disagree.  Regardless, in the write up of Mandalore in EotE, the planet is occupied and being strip mined, so there's plenty of room for the peaceful types, the warriors and the extremists.

 

The peaceful ones would want to wait the Empire out, the warriors would want to push them out, and the extremists would want to push out anyone who isn't supporting them, citing a with us or against Mandalore mindset.

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OK, I am NOT lamenting the change to canon, I am NOT reopening the debate over a certain Author.

 

I am simply looking for how you have all reconciled the Mandalorian History in your games.

 

 

To clarify.

 

Ive just finished watching the Mandalorian Story arc in Clone Wars (Im about half way through Season 2, and I know there is more to come).

 

I Have read the Wookieepedia articles on Canon Mandalorians, and Legends Mandalorian History up to the Clone Wars (not beyond).

 

Clearly, there is a HUGE wealth of Legends Material, and not very much Canon material.

The Legends material does a reasonable job of show horning all the Legends and Canon stuff together, some of it is stronger than others.

 

So, some points for summery:

CANON: Mandalorians are Humans, from Mandalore

LEGENDS: Mandalorian is a culture that absorbs people and species from all over.

CANON: Mandalorians USED to be Warmongering, but became pacifists after their civil war, with the exception of a few who refused, and were sent to Condcordia.

LEGENDS: You are New Mandalorians (Canon), TRUE Mandalorians (Under Jango), and Death Watch

 

Questions.

Is Jango a Mandalorian? Or simply using their armour? (His Wookieepedia entry suggests he is seen as a pretender) I recall he was referred to as a Mandalorian in Ep2? (But could that simply be because he was wearing Mandalorian Battle Armour?)

 

In Legends, Jango, as leader of the Mandalorians was betrayed by Tor Visla and sold out to the Jedi, his men were killed by Count Dooku. Yet this same man (Dooku) who butchered his man, Hired him to be the template of the Clone Army?

Why would Jango agree to that, given his code of conduct as a Mandalorian, agree to work for the man who killed his men? (He must have known it was the same man, under a different name unless he is beard blind? Or simply driven by money more than honour at this point?)

 

Jango is also clearly working FOR the Separatists, hes taking orders from Dooku (Again, WHY? As above), during the first battle of Geonosis where he dies.

 

Since its clear now Jango is in the pay of Dooku, would it not cast some huge concerns over the Clone Army? Whose progenitor genetics was from a man working FOR the Enemy?

I go 100% canon with the Mandalorians. It's mentioned in TCW about Jango and I think the Mandalorian Prime Minister remarks to Obi Wan "How he got hold of that armour, I've no idea." I think he's not meant to be Mandalorian, though it's not explicitly stated.

I have Mandalorian society a bit like a modern slightly stereotyped Germany. At one point they were a powerful military force but have now made a conscious and overt political stance toward peace and as a society have channelled their considerable skill and discipline into forging an industrial and prosperous society. As a people, they are regarded as handsome (most Mandalorians are tall, fair and athletic in my setting and TCW actually backs that up), a overly serious (though they certainly do have their fun side, they like to compartmentalize) and generally very well-respected. Most of the galaxy is quite happy with Mandalore like this as they remember a little too well the old Manadalore. No-one wants to see Mandalore on a war-footing again! I see Mandalorians as having a strong culture and loyalty to their people. For me, they're a sort of high-tech, urban-orientated Amish.

Of course this being Sci-Fi, I try to give them a little undercurrent of dark potential. One adventure idea I may or may not run, involves a group of Mandalorian athletes travelling for a competition. Their pacifism is well-known and leads to a number of people taking advantage. I'm thinking there might be a scene where they're pushed to far and respond with extreme and brutal violence before entering shock at what they've done. I want their heritage to not quite be forgotten.

Edited by knasserII

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I have a feeling that we will see Imperial Occupied Mandalore in season 2 or 3, if there's going to be one, of Rebels.

That would be a fun complication for Sabine.

Edited by kaosoe

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If you're a Mandalorian warrior in a galaxy at peace, how do you fight as a Mandalorian warrior without becoming the sort of violent extremist that largely comprised Death Watch?

You don't. Soldiers that refuse to hang up their weapons after the fighting is done become violent extremists.

I think I'm paraphrasing Dave Filoni, but having an entire planet of Boba Fetts makes Boba Fett a bit less cool.

Chewbacca might disagree.
 

Lumpy and Itchy might agree.

 

Regardless, in the write up of Mandalore in EotE, the planet is occupied and being strip mined, so there's plenty of room for the peaceful types, the warriors and the extremists.

 

What write up? Do you mean the SW Atlas?

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