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Payens81

Upgrade card packs

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There's a difference between this and X wing. People are typically going to need less ships, and I bet most people have all the copies of a particular ship that they want already. For example, I'm never going to need another victory model... but down the line it might get outdated and they might want to put out more titles or unique upgrades for the Victory. I'm not going to want to buy an elite pack just for the cards. In this case, a card pack would be ideal

 

People had four B-wings before Aces came out. Now they have more B-wings.

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There's a difference between this and X wing. People are typically going to need less ships, and I bet most people have all the copies of a particular ship that they want already. For example, I'm never going to need another victory model... but down the line it might get outdated and they might want to put out more titles or unique upgrades for the Victory. I'm not going to want to buy an elite pack just for the cards. In this case, a card pack would be ideal

 

People had four B-wings before Aces came out. Now they have more B-wings.

 

 

More B-wings than they will ever need.  Unless they play epic.

 

X-wing packs are cheaper than Armada pack.  So say they take a page from the Aces pack and make a double miniatures pack for Armada.  That's at least $40 dollars.  For two miniatures one likely does not need and new upgrade cards which are really just glorified cardboard.  Sure, one can buy the extra cards from a split pack somewhere... but at that point one would think that somebody at FFG would look at that and see that they are missing easy sales.

 

Personally, I don't care that certain universal upgrades come in only certain model packs.  I usually get at least two of everything that comes out.  Right now I have two core sets and two of everything else (I had extra money when I pre-ordered, I suppose I should have cut my order down a little <.<).  Down the line, I would just like to see a way for me to get the unique upgrades for ships I already have without having to buy another model... and card packs would be an excellent way for me to do so.

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More B-wings than they will ever need.  Unless they play epic.

 

X-wing packs are cheaper than Armada pack.  So say they take a page from the Aces pack and make a double miniatures pack for Armada.  That's at least $40 dollars.  For two miniatures one likely does not need and new upgrade cards which are really just glorified cardboard.  Sure, one can buy the extra cards from a split pack somewhere... but at that point one would think that somebody at FFG would look at that and see that they are missing easy sales.

 

Personally, I don't care that certain universal upgrades come in only certain model packs.  I usually get at least two of everything that comes out.  Right now I have two core sets and two of everything else (I had extra money when I pre-ordered, I suppose I should have cut my order down a little <.<).  Down the line, I would just like to see a way for me to get the unique upgrades for ships I already have without having to buy another model... and card packs would be an excellent way for me to do so.

If you don't care about tournaments, then feel free to proxy cards.  I doubt that anyone would have a problem with that.  Otherwise, you're most likely out of luck.

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One great thing that FFG does is make the card images officially available online. They have gone out of there way to make it easy to print cards for casual play or just to test a loadout before comitting to a purchase.

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No. It's a miniature and trading card game - card packs would be interesting, but FFG would cut their margin by selling them. Or at least that's the fear...

So is Warmachines/Hordes a trading card game? After all they use cards for stats too?

 

No, it is not a TCG. CCG, or LCG. The focus is not the cards it is the models. Cards just make it easy to track model stats, special rules and load-outs, otherwise you would have to use pen paper and write or print your list from a book. You do not build decks there can be model trading but to just trade the cards without the models and the cards become useless.

 

In a card game cards can run independently of the models. This is not that case, it is a miniatures game that utilizes cards not a card game with miniatures.

Edited by Marinealver

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No. It's a miniature and trading card game - card packs would be interesting, but FFG would cut their margin by selling them. Or at least that's the fear...

So is Warmachines/Hordes a trading card game? After all they use cards for stats too?

 

No, it is not a TCG. CCG, or LCG. The focus is not the cards it is the models. Cards just make it easy to track model stats, special rules and load-outs, otherwise you would have to use pen paper and write or print your list from a book. You do not build decks there can be model trading but to just trade the cards without the models and the cards become useless.

 

In a card game cards can run independently of the models. This is not that case, it is a miniatures game that utilizes cards not a card game with miniatures.

 

 

Why can't they sell cards without the models?  Just because they haven't done it before?  Before Scum and Villiany came out in X-Wing, a lot of people were saying there was no way they would introduce a third faction to the game.  I realize it's very unlikely to happen, but I really don't see any reason why they should not give it a go.

 

Hypothetically, let's say they did put out a small "booster" of non-randomized cards with either new versions of ships already out or unique upgrades of existing ships.  If you had model of that ship or ships included in the booster, would you not want to buy the booster?  Especially down the line when certain ships are not performing that well in the meta.  Some people who did not buy a certain model before might like one of the upgrades and decide to pick up one or two of the old packs.    

 

You're right, this isn't a card game with miniatures.  But you need those cards to play the game, you cannot play it without them.  FFG is pretty good about power creep but it's going to happen down the line of this game, and the only way to fix that is new cards for old models.

Edited by icestormganon

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Does anyone know if fantasy flight has ever thought of just making and selling upgrade card packs. What do I mean by this? I bought 2 core sets I figured that it would be cheaper than getting one and then adding the additional ships, also none of my friends have the game so kind of need the 2 to have a full game. Now wave 1 is out and if you buy the corvette or the neb B you get more upgrade cards and Mon Mothma. I really do not want to go out and buy a corvette set just for the upgrade card I want to save my money for the new stuff that I do not have yet. So where does that leave me if I want use the upgrade cards? I went online found a picture of the card and printed it off. I know I would not be able to use it in a tournament but I doubt I would ever be in one. I would prefer the cards from Fantasy Flight so would be nice if they had card packs or something that would be cheaper to buy.

I know friends that collect x-wing that do the same thing. They can't keep up with all the expansions or are not going to buy the elite being pack just for the upgrade cards so they do the samething. Thoughts?

By packaging cards with models they ensure that, if you want the cards, you have to buy the models.

This means more model sales for them. I'm sure there's a higher profit margin on card packs than on models, but that doesn't fit their 'waves' release schedule and would hurt future model sales.

It's a **** business move, but them's the breaks.

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It's a **** business move, but them's the breaks.

It is a brilliant business move really. It keeps models flowing off FFG shelves and it provides everyone some profit

I don't think card packs would hurt their model sales. And I think the profit margins on card packs would be much higher. But it appears the boffins at FFG are concerned that card packs would harm their model sales, so we won't see them.

So I don't think it's a brilliant business move on their part, I think it's overly conservative. And it's definitely not brilliant for the consumer, who gets thoroughly screwed.

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It's a **** business move, but them's the breaks.

It is a brilliant business move really. It keeps models flowing off FFG shelves and it provides everyone some profit

Except that FFG has no problem moving their models. They are sold out of some for months at a time.

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It's a **** business move, but them's the breaks.

It is a brilliant business move really. It keeps models flowing off FFG shelves and it provides everyone some profit
I don't think card packs would hurt their model sales. And I think the profit margins on card packs would be much higher. But it appears the boffins at FFG are concerned that card packs would harm their model sales, so we won't see them.So I don't think it's a brilliant business move on their part, I think it's overly conservative. And it's definitely not brilliant for the consumer, who gets thoroughly screwed.
So you are saying for a game like X-wing, you would of bought the expensive Rebels Aces pack, instead buying the $5-10 card pack that gave you the cards to play the models?

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It's a **** business move, but them's the breaks.

It is a brilliant business move really. It keeps models flowing off FFG shelves and it provides everyone some profit
I don't think card packs would hurt their model sales. And I think the profit margins on card packs would be much higher. But it appears the boffins at FFG are concerned that card packs would harm their model sales, so we won't see them.So I don't think it's a brilliant business move on their part, I think it's overly conservative. And it's definitely not brilliant for the consumer, who gets thoroughly screwed.
So you are saying for a game like X-wing, you would of bought the expensive Rebels Aces pack, instead buying the $5-10 card pack that gave you the cards to play the models?

 

Except for the Rebel Aces pack had the models you have to play with the cards. You got it backwards. You need the models to play the cards not the other way around. If you had a B-wing and a rebel aces pack then you could play both Farlander and Nera. If you just had the Aces pack then you could only play one of those cards. Another example, say I just gave you the two cards for a CR-90, will you now be able to play an epic game with the CR-90 corvette? No, you also need the model, and the dial, and the tile, bases, ect.

 

This is not a card game, it is a miniatures game that utilizes cards, having cards without the miniatures then it becomes something else.

 

Also in terms of model counts comparing this to X-wing Armada has a higher model count not a lower one. So for models say the lowest count is 3 VSD, lets assume that there is no squadrons. Well X-wing has a number of 2 ship builds. Now if you throw in squadrons which will often have say 2-5 then the model count goes from 3 per side to 8 models per side. So an average game of Armada uses more models than an average game of X-wing. but then again according to those that say it is all about the cards and C-3PO is the $90 op upgrade for unskilled players that only use Fat Han, right?  <_<

Edited by Marinealver

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So you are saying for a game like X-wing, you would of bought the expensive Rebels Aces pack, instead buying the $5-10 card pack that gave you the cards to play the models?

Well, under a sales model that includes card packs there'd be less market for aces packs. This isn't a bad thing.

But as it happens I bought an aces pack because I wanted the models. So I guess the answer to your question is yes?

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No matter how you cut it in the end the expansion packs are Not that expensive. And you can always hit up eBay for your card needs too.

As a X-Wing player and a player of many different miniature games this is not a real issue. Every Game has their thing we would like to see changed. When I played WM/H I wished they had sold blisters with complete units or individuals to get the unit size I wanted. GW, where to start. Malifuax had a great system for selling but their model release time is beyond hellish. The transition between 1.5 to 2.0 is Still happening and I can't remember when it started.

We all wished game companies did things in a way that we would like it but none of them do. It is the nature of gaming that you either come to grips with or remain frustrated about. For me FFG's model is a slight issue but nothing compared to what I have been through before.

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In my opinion the current implementation is a horrible case of money grabbing, and its the only thing I really don't like about FFG's business model. Do you want card X? You have to buy ship Y just for the card. Corporate Commander is surely happy with that scheme.

Personally I'm smarter than that and will just print the cards I need.

You can but in Organized events they are not legal at all.

Just saying pirating is not a legal thing to do at tournaments or leagues. Everyone else has to purchase them and it would be unfair to let you show up with proxies and printed cards. (Smarter is not really the word to use because We All have thought of it but don't do it.)

 

 

I was talking about normal homeplay since I never play at tournaments. You may call that pirating, I call it using my printer for its intended purpose.

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In my opinion the current implementation is a horrible case of money grabbing, and its the only thing I really don't like about FFG's business model. Do you want card X? You have to buy ship Y just for the card. Corporate Commander is surely happy with that scheme.

Personally I'm smarter than that and will just print the cards I need.

You can but in Organized events they are not legal at all.

Just saying pirating is not a legal thing to do at tournaments or leagues. Everyone else has to purchase them and it would be unfair to let you show up with proxies and printed cards. (Smarter is not really the word to use because We All have thought of it but don't do it.)

 

I was talking about normal homeplay since I never play at tournaments. You may call that pirating, I call it using my printer for its intended purpose.

You can do whatever you want at home so go for it. Most of us don't just play at home though so your situation is not a norm.

Also you can call it what you want too but it is what it is. (And suggesting pirating FFG products on a FFG website is not quite right either. You can do it on your own forum all you want but on FFG's Forum it is a little bad etiquette.)

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Honestly card packs are precisely the way they need to go.  Especially since we got the big old finger on the Star Destroyer expansion.  Ozzel?  Really?  The guy who botched the Hoth attack?  Unless they release more large-class Imperial ships, we're missing out on the real staple commanders like Piett, Daala, Thrawn, etc...   It's not even funny.

 

So realistically it would be financial suicide not to capitalize on the chance.  Cards cost nothing to print, and its make money from a product that shows demand or loose money to people going to third party printing services and getting community-made custom cards printed.

 

People also seem to forget that there is a presidence, set by FFG, for "card expansions". One need only look at FFG's own 'Edge of the Empire' franchise.  There's half a dozen or more extra (and pretty unnecessary) card decks to buy for the game so one doesn't have to look up rules in the book(s).  So yeah, card expansions for Armada please.

Edited by ElizLestrad

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Honestly card packs are precisely the way they need to go.  Especially since we got the big old finger on the Star Destroyer expansion.  Ozzel?  Really?  The guy who botched the Hoth attack?  Unless they release more large-class Imperial ships, we're missing out on the real staple commanders like Piett, Daala, Thrawn, etc...   It's not even funny.

 

So realistically it would be financial suicide not to capitalize on the chance.  Cards cost nothing to print, and its make money from a product that shows demand or loose money to people going to third party printing services and getting community-made custom cards printed.

 

People also seem to forget that there is a presidence, set by FFG, for "card expansions". One need only look at FFG's own 'Edge of the Empire' franchise.  There's half a dozen or more extra (and pretty unnecessary) card decks to buy for the game so one doesn't have to look up rules in the book(s).  So yeah, card expansions for Armada please.

No, there is no precedence for this from FFG.  Edge of the Empire is an RPG, not a miniatures game.  FFG has stated on multiple occasions that they will not be doing booster card packs for X-Wing, and there is no reason to believe that they will change their minds for Armada.  Whatever your feelings about the card choices (and frankly they're irrelevant), FFG undoubtedly has a better idea about what they are doing in terms of running their business.  Given that they are making money hand over fist, I doubt that it's 'financial suicide' for them not to release card packs.

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so +1 for some sort of way to obtain more cards.

Agreed. I'd happily provide FFG with money directly to simply buy more cards but buying a Nebulon-B for the X-17 Turbolasers when I'm an Imperial-only player just feels like a waste. I can borrow one from my Rebel buddy, but if he's already using it I'm rather SOL.

 

The alternative is simply making high-quality copies, printing them on card stock, cutting them out, and sleeving them. Sure the texture will be a little different from the regular cards (without the professional glossy finish, although you could mimic it with a gloss varnish spray), but the only way anyone would ever notice is by unsleeving the card and who in the world is going to start a game by asking the other guy to unsleeve all of his upgrade cards so he can feel them?

 

Again, I'd much prefer to give FFG my money for the cards directly and I'd happily pay what most people are paying for individual cards online (around $3ish per card). It's just financially ridiculous for me to spend $20 buying a ship I'll never use just for one or maybe two cards, though.

 

And before this spirals (back) into strawman arguments about proxying whole fleets or ships, that's not the intent. It's an upgrade available to all ships with the right icon. The only question is whether you have the right piece of card stock. I would not be amenable to playing someone who proxied ships or squadrons (past maybe a few "try it out" casual games) but I do not care whatsoever if the other guy is producing his own copies of upgrade cards. They're just play aids.

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I, for one, am a little miffed that the tractor only comes in the ISD. As an Imperial play that intends to get 2, so I'm OK. But, what about the pure as the driven snow Rebel player with a limited budget?

I can see how later expansions having the cards will drive sales in the long term and keep our game alive. But FFGs actions have made me feel sympathy for the Rebel scum, and that is simply unacceptable.

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