modifying dice twice?

[clontroper5 4,233]

Can I modify my dice more than once?

This question came up as we were discussing warlord in the other thread basically the scenario is warlord + h9 turbolaser

Roll a hit/critical h9 modifys to a accuracy and then warlord modifys back to a double hit.

It also works against squadrens to make a garenteed hit every squad attack

I haven't found anything in the rules that prohibit this and the closes refrence to modifying dice more then once is under modifying dice in the RRG it specifically says that you CAN roll a die more then once.

So is this legal? Did I miss something?

[DWRR 898]

They can certainly be re- rolled as many times as you have effects that let you re-roll them...

[Admiral Terghon 497]

The timing of the Attack Phase is a bit fiddly.  You have to break things down to see how it works.  When you do, you'll see that combo might not work the way most people are using it.

 

Roll Attack Dice:
Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice.  Etc.

 

Resolve Attack Effects
The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below:

• Modify Dice:
  The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice.  This includes card effects and the (Concentrate Fire) command.
• Spend Accuracy:
  The attacker can spend one or more of its (Accuracy) icons to choose the same number of the defender's defense tokens.  The chosen defense tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

What I've seen people do is use H9 to modify the Hit to an Accuracy.  Spend the Accuracy, then modify it to a Double-Hit.  This clearly is out of sequence.  If you simply modify the dice twice in a row during the Modify Dice step, I do think it's legal.

[clontroper5 4,233]

The timing of the Attack Phase is a bit fiddly.  You have to break things down to see how it works.  When you do, you'll see that combo might not work the way most people are using it.

 

Roll Attack Dice:

Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice.  Etc.

 

Resolve Attack Effects

The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below:

• Modify Dice:

  The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice.  This includes card effects and the (Concentrate Fire) command.

• Spend Accuracy:

  The attacker can spend one or more of its (Accuracy) icons to choose the same number of the defender's defense tokens.  The chosen defense tokens cannot be spent during this attack.

What I've seen people do is use H9 to modify the Hit to an Accuracy.  Spend the Accuracy, then modify it to a Double-Hit.  This clearly is out of sequence.  If you simply modify the dice twice in a row during the Modify Dice step, I do think it's legal.

I agree you can't use the accuracy and a hit on the same die, and thanks for your response:)

[DWRR 898]

When you spend an accuracy dice you remove it from dice pool. You can Modify dice and spend accuracy in any order.

[Hashik 14]

It also works against squadrens to make a garenteed hit every squad attack

I'm getting ready for an Armada event tomorrow and am running Warlord+H9s. I thought I could get a hit on every squad, but in re-reading the rules, I think the use of the word "while" only allows me to use each card once during the attack (RR p.5), since rolling against every squadron in an arc is part of the same attack (RR p.2). For example:

4 X-Wings in my side arc

Roll against xwing #1: Hit result=1 damage

Roll against xwing #2: Crit result->1 accuracy via H9-> 1 damage via Warlord

Roll against xwing #3: Accuracy result=0 damage since I can't use Warlord again during this attack to modify it.

Roll against xwing #4: Crit result=0 damage, since I can't use h9s again during this attack to modify it (Couldn't use Warlord again anyway)

Do I have this right? I just want to make sure I'm not misusing the cards.

[clontroper5 4,233]

It also works against squadrens to make a garenteed hit every squad attack

I'm getting ready for an Armada event tomorrow and am running Warlord+H9s. I thought I could get a hit on every squad, but in re-reading the rules, I think the use of the word "while" only allows me to use each card once during the attack (RR p.5), since rolling against every squadron in an arc is part of the same attack (RR p.2). For example:

4 X-Wings in my side arc

Roll against xwing #1: Hit result=1 damage

Roll against xwing #2: Crit result->1 accuracy via H9-> 1 damage via Warlord

Roll against xwing #3: Accuracy result=0 damage since I can't use Warlord again during this attack to modify it.

Roll against xwing #4: Crit result=0 damage, since I can't use h9s again during this attack to modify it (Couldn't use Warlord again anyway)

Do I have this right? I just want to make sure I'm not misusing the cards.

so I was begining to think like you on this but on rereading the cards they say, "While attacking" not once per attack.

This could be interpreted as meaning once for EACH DICE POOL.

which would make warlord and h9 trigger every time you roll, I was thinking otherwise because concentrate fire can only be used on 1 roll, but that's because you can only use concentrate fire once per round. So things like screed, overload pulse and Intel officer apply to that category but warlord and h9 seem to have no such restrictions.

They just say you use them while attacking...

[clontroper5 4,233]

On review, I believe that warlord and h9 in fact work EVERY TIME you roll and not once per attack.

[Hashik 14]

This interpretation is certainly the best for me, I was just wondering since the term "while" (which is on both cards) has a very specific definition from the rules reference on pg 5. It states that

A "while" effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

So is the "event" the roll or the attack? The cards say "while attacking" not "while rolling", which seems to say that I can only use them once per the attack as I per my example, since each roll is all part of the same attack.

[clontroper5 4,233]

This interpretation is certainly the best for me, I was just wondering since the term "while" (which is on both cards) has a very specific definition from the rules reference on pg 5. It states that

A "while" effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

So is the "event" the roll or the attack? The cards say "while attacking" not "while rolling", which seems to say that I can only use them once per the attack as I per my example, since each roll is all part of the same attack.

Ahhh, I didn't catch that!

THE MISSING LINK! While says you can only use once per attack

(Once per instanse of that event...in this case once per attack)

So in deed warlord and h9 can only be used once per attack, which means only at 1 squad per attack like in your previous example

[Hashik 14]

Good (or not so good for my squadron rolls? ) to hear we have it sorted out. I'm not near a game store, so I appreciate getting other perspectives from forum users. Thanks for the feedback.

[Herowannabe 4,375]

I had a similar situation come up last night and didn't know how to rule it. I had warlord and H9s and I rolled a hit on a red die.

 

So, are we agreed that I could have used H9s to change the hit to an accuracy, and then used Warlord to change the new accuracy into a double hit?

 

Because if so, that is sweet.

[MaverickNZ 591]

Still waiting on an answer from FFG regarding changing to the double hit on Warlord - seems odd that they have answered other rules questions (including 3 to me on Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma, Demolisher) and not the Warlord question. Im assuming its because it wasnt intended to do that :/

[wtfboar 47]

I think if we follow the process of an attack in order as explained in the rules reference page 2 we will get our answer. Lets go through the steps as if we had rolled one die. 

 

1. Declare target. 

 

2 Roll attack dice.

Gather the attack die and roll those dice.

- We roll our Die and get a hit!

 

3 Resolve attack effects. 

Modify Dice.

-We use H9 Turboblasters to change our hit to an accuracy.

Now we use Warlords to change the accuracy back to a hit. 

Spend accuracy

- We now have no accuracy to spend. 

 

4 Spend defensive tokens. 

Lets say no defensive tokens for simplicity.

 

5. Resolve damage

- Now the defender takes 1 damage from the attackers hit.

 

I think the confusion comes from people trying to resolve the attacking steps out of order. As I read the rules and go step by step it is clear to me that the H9 Turbolaser and the Warlord can not be used to resolve 2 damage from a single hit. To do that we would have to take the attack steps out of order. Almost like floating mana in Magic ( Sorry I can think of a better example.) They keep the original credit for the hit and then use H9 and Warlords to add a second damage. And when I read the rules and go through the attack steps, I do not believe you can do that. 

 

And to your first question. Yes you can absolutely modify a die more then once. 

 

What do you think? Does that make sense to you? 

[wtfboar 47]

I did some more research and talked to a friend, and I have changed my mind because of the rules explanation in wave 1 preview from Fantasy Flight. Here is the link.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/1/16/star-destroyers/

 

In the preview Fantasy Flight explains how Screed works step by step. In there example you can sacrifice a die to change another die to any face with a crit icon. In the example they make it clear you can change the die to a Hit/Crit face.

 

The wording for H9 Turbo lasers and the wording for the Warlord title are the same key words used for Screed. "A face with a "Accuracy/Hit" icon. Therefore I can see no reason why you couldn't use H9 to change a face to an accuracy and then use Warlords to change that accuracy to a Hit/Hit face on a red die. 

[clontroper5 4,233]

No it's

I think if we follow the process of an attack in order as explained in the rules reference page 2 we will get our answer. Lets go through the steps as if we had rolled one die. 

 

1. Declare target. 

 

2 Roll attack dice.

Gather the attack die and roll those dice.

- We roll our Die and get a hit!

 

3 Resolve attack effects. 

Modify Dice.

-We use H9 Turboblasters to change our hit to an accuracy.

Now we use Warlords to change the accuracy back to a hit. 

Spend accuracy

- We now have no accuracy to spend. 

 

4 Spend defensive tokens. 

Lets say no defensive tokens for simplicity.

 

5. Resolve damage

- Now the defender takes 1 damage from the attackers hit.

 

I think the confusion comes from people trying to resolve the attacking steps out of order. As I read the rules and go step by step it is clear to me that the H9 Turbolaser and the Warlord can not be used to resolve 2 damage from a single hit. To do that we would have to take the attack steps out of order. Almost like floating mana in Magic ( Sorry I can think of a better example.) They keep the original credit for the hit and then use H9 and Warlords to add a second damage. And when I read the rules and go through the attack steps, I do not believe you can do that. 

 

And to your first question. Yes you can absolutely modify a die more then once. 

 

What do you think? Does that make sense to you?

I think you mis understanding what we mean by double hits, we are referring to the double hit SIDE of the red die which using warlord can be changed to

[wtfboar 47]

Yes you can, as I said in my next post

[clontroper5 4,233]

Never mind you figured it out

[clontroper5 4,233]

Ninja'd.

[wtfboar 47]

Lol word

[MaverickNZ 591]

I did some more research and talked to a friend, and I have changed my mind because of the rules explanation in wave 1 preview from Fantasy Flight. Here is the link.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/1/16/star-destroyers/

 

In the preview Fantasy Flight explains how Screed works step by step. In there example you can sacrifice a die to change another die to any face with a crit icon. In the example they make it clear you can change the die to a Hit/Crit face.

 

The wording for H9 Turbo lasers and the wording for the Warlord title are the same key words used for Screed. "A face with a "Accuracy/Hit" icon. Therefore I can see no reason why you couldn't use H9 to change a face to an accuracy and then use Warlords to change that accuracy to a Hit/Hit face on a red die. 

 

The technicality is in the "A" hit wording on the Warlord card, not multiple hit results.

Screed is a different argument altogether because even though the card wording is the same, the dice with critical faces are not. The black dice with hit/crit still only feature "a" as in a singlular critical hit, regardless of the other regular hit on the dice face. By the same argument, if black dice had Crit/Crit on a face, then that face wouldnt be allowed as its not "a" crit, its two crits.

I think that the double hit probably should be legal, but am just pointing out that several people have FAQ'd FFG on it and noone has got a reply, so maybe it was actually an oversight on their part and they are trying to figure out how game breaking it might be to leave it in. Whilst we might say "It works fine as it is" it could potentially mess with other upgrades for wave 2 which they are in the process of finalising.

Edited June 13, 2015 by MaverickNZ

[clontroper5 4,233]

[Green Knight 9,746]

FFG has replied.

 

You can use Warlord to get a HIT-HIT

 

And you can use H9/Warlord once on every squadron you attack.

[MaverickNZ 591]

Glad we finally have an answer!

[Intys Rule 148]

Based on the first and second post of the OP, I wonder if this has been addressed correctly?

Specifically:

"I haven't found anything in the rules that prohibit this and the closes refrence to modifying dice more then once is under modifying dice in the RRG it specifically says that you CAN roll a die more then once.

So is this legal? Did I miss something? "

I'm about to use this combo and note that I am not rolling anything.  The H9s allow me to **change** a hit or crit into an accuracy and Warlord allows me to **change** an accuracy into a hit-hit.  So I am 1) not re-rolling any dice and 2) not "spending" accuracy but rather **changing** it.  In other words, both effects (H9 and Warlord) occur in the Modify Dice step.

Also, on page 5 of the RRG under Effect Use and Timing, bullet #8 allows the controlling player to resolve the effects in any order.

So, combined with Screed, even if I roll blanks, provided I roll more than 1 die, I am guaranteed 2 hits on one attack (Screed kicks in only once per activation).

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.