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Torresse

FFG knock off dice...

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The question of dice facings of the emblems has been answered:  They are going to prove that the dice are exactly the FFG symbols on the right faces with pictures before they have them printed. 

 

And since I've been wanting to pimp out my game for casual stuff - you're danged right I joined the kickstarter!  I'm hoping the guy that tested the other dice is willing to test these dice too.  But I'm already more trusting of non-bubbled close-to-clear-craps-dice than the FFG ones with the proven random bubbles. 

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Im upset because I know these dice will make their way to the competitive/premier level. I saw a player use attackwing bases at a Store Championship, then watched as he quit the game because he was told to not use the bases.

Then he DIDNT use them at a store championship, he TRIED to use them and was stopped, just like anyone trying to use these dice would be.

And yeah, so what if they did end up being allowed in tournaments. Basically every other game with dice and a tournament scene uses standard numbered dice and has any old dice used in their tournaments. Why is this a bigger deal than someone using "el cheapo" brand dice from a dollar store in a warmachine worked championship?

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Im upset because I know these dice will make their way to the competitive/premier level. I saw a player use attackwing bases at a Store Championship, then watched as he quit the game because he was told to not use the bases.

Then he DIDNT use them at a store championship, he TRIED to use them and was stopped, just like anyone trying to use these dice would be.

And yeah, so what if they did end up being allowed in tournaments. Basically every other game with dice and a tournament scene uses standard numbered dice and has any old dice used in their tournaments. Why is this a bigger deal than someone using "el cheapo" brand dice from a dollar store in a warmachine worked championship?

 

actually he did use them and was allowed by several opponents to continue before being told to swap them out. I am sure there will be people who don't care and allow these dice, and a player can make it all the way to his last match before being told he would have to quit using his special dice. This is the absolute worst time to be told to make a change, have some empathy for the player who gets told he was doing something wrong after doing it for a while.

 I am sure many of you have had dealings at your job where you have made a mistake that was common knowledge to other people, then feel like an idiot when corrected.

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I am sure many of you have had dealings at your job where you have made a mistake that was common knowledge to other people, then feel like an idiot when corrected.

I'd hardly consider that the sort of thing that constitutes a 'mistake' that someone should feel bad about.

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Is the OP not a native English speaker, can't see why the word 'upset' was used.

If you don't want to use the dice don't buy them, you are also welcome to insist any opponent you play doesn't use them for the same reason FFG doesn't.

Problem solved

you certainly made me question my English reading ability by trying to read your post....

Im upset because I know these dice will make their way to the competitive/premier level. I saw a player use attackwing bases at a Store Championship, then watched as he quit the game because he was told to not use the bases.

That sounds like his problem...not yours, mine, or anyone elses...seems like the prohibition on non ffg dice is working...

Again what is the issue here? People can use whatever they **** well please in a home or casual game and the rules are VERY CLEAR regarding the beloved "tournies."

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Im upset because I know these dice will make their way to the competitive/premier level. I saw a player use attackwing bases at a Store Championship, then watched as he quit the game because he was told to not use the bases.

Then he DIDNT use them at a store championship, he TRIED to use them and was stopped, just like anyone trying to use these dice would be.

And yeah, so what if they did end up being allowed in tournaments. Basically every other game with dice and a tournament scene uses standard numbered dice and has any old dice used in their tournaments. Why is this a bigger deal than someone using "el cheapo" brand dice from a dollar store in a warmachine worked championship?

actually he did use them and was allowed by several opponents to continue before being told to swap them out. I am sure there will be people who don't care and allow these dice, and a player can make it all the way to his last match before being told he would have to quit using his special dice. This is the absolute worst time to be told to make a change, have some empathy for the player who gets told he was doing something wrong after doing it for a while.

 I am sure many of you have had dealings at your job where you have made a mistake that was common knowledge to other people, then feel like an idiot when corrected.

Saw this arts I posted...again this sounds like his problem. If his opponents had an issue (which seeing no one said anything I will assume they didn't...I don't think I would) then they should have fold their TO and had the VERY CLEAR rule enforced. Seriously dude...this isn't the issue you think it is.

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How would you feel if you got to the final round of a regional, and was told by a TO or another player that you could not use your custom templates? I know of several local players who would rage at the request even if an update to the FAQ a month before that they didn't bother to check.

As for me, during a casual game, I will play against whatever my opponent had (even weighted dice). During a competitive or premier event, I would politely ask my opponent to either switch to use FFG dice, or my ffg dice.

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How would you feel if you got to the final round of a regional, and was told by a TO or another player that you could not use your custom templates?

I'd be like "Sure thing hoss. I don't see the harm in using them but rules are rules, eh?"

I know of several local players who would rage at the request

That seems like a disproportionate response.

During a competitive or premier event, I would politely ask my opponent to either switch to use FFG dice, or my ffg dice.

Why? What's wrong with 3rd party dice?

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How would you feel if you got to the final round of a regional, and was told by a TO or another player that you could not use your custom templates?

I'd be like "Sure thing hoss. I don't see the harm in using them but rules are rules, eh?"

I know of several local players who would rage at the request

That seems like a disproportionate response.

During a competitive or premier event, I would politely ask my opponent to either switch to use FFG dice, or my ffg dice.

Why? What's wrong with 3rd party dice?

 

These dice are made unbalanced, Look at any point on an ffg die and you will see a 50% of hitting, 25% of an eyeball, and 25% blank no matter how you roll it. These dice can be manipulated without allot of practice, perhaps even being able to learn how to roll the dice just from muscle memory, or you an infinite loop of the top half of the die could result. One of the easiest things to do with trick rolling isnt by making a certain result happen, but eliminating a result.

 

Since we dont use D6's Ill give an example. Imagine a D6, if the only result that can hurt me is a 1, I can hold the 1 and the 6 parallel to the table and use the 1 and 6 as an axis to the spin I give my dice. With only a little practice, I have eliminated the 1 from appearing (perhaps not 100% as it could bounce unpredictable, but I will no longer have a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1.  

 

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If anyone is spending the time and energy to learn to cheat with their dice in X-Wing, then they have worse problems than getting caught.  They basically have no life, or put waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much importance in winning a GAME.  Even if they can possibly win a tournament or two and get some "rare" prize, then they could sell it for a couple hundred dollars max (if dice rolling was the only important part of this game).  If they get caught, then they can get banned, internet shamed, and possibly excluded from future X-Wing or FFG events, even further wasting this new "skill" they have "learned". 

 

So, in conclusion if you blatantly cheat at a game with so little actual gain (so most games), then you a already a LOSER in many more ways than one.

 

So, some people just like playing with shiny clear dice.  Let them.  I am looking forward to my shiny new templates, if they ever come in the mail, are they required to play, heck no, but they are SHINY!!!!!

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You can check template very easily, literally hold them next to a standard template. Checking the mass distribution in a die is somewhat more complex.

 

Third party tokens and templates are one thing: tokens grant no advantage and templates are very easily checked. Dice... well, let's just say the ruling on dice isn't with an aim to increasing sales.

Holding up your "official" template won't necessarily tell you either. I recently read an article about how FFGs standard movement and firing templates are often not exact in their size. This makes sense to me because they are mass produced cardboard pieces. So I measured as many as I could get my hands on. I found (similar to the article) that range rulers were between 299-301mm in length with similar variations among movement templates. Don't make the mistakes of assuming that because it's FFG official that that means it accurate or high quality (as has been pointed out). I'd trust my 3rd party templates over an FFG official one any day. One day some really whacky player is going to call for a quality check on templates and dice at an official tournament and it's gonna get ugly. I wouldn't care if my opponent brought these dice (which I don't own any of) to an official FFG tournament event and played with them. If I thought he was up to something no good I would simply request to use his same dice as the rules allow.

 

I doubt the machining is that far off. The templates may not be identical but it's got to be a pretty poor cutter to be two millimetres out.

 

Except perhaps if someone were actively trying to make rigged dice? FFG can either say you can use third party dice or you can't. There's no way to test the third party dice in a tournament context. Third party templates however are simple enough to check.

Did you really miss that? They are supposed to be 300mm but some are +1mm and some are -1mm. That means if your opponent has a 301mm range ruler and you have a 299mm range ruler he has a 2mm advantage with a +/-1 on any given FFG cardboard template.

Look at this logically. If someone actually wanted to doctor dice why would they use clear dice? The opaque dice provided by FFG would make it much easier to alter the dice and hide it.

To the spin a dice by muscle memory and change the outcome guy. That is one of the most hilarious and silly things I've ever heard. It's one of those things which seem smart in your head but when the rest of us read it it's just looney. It's simply not possible. Try it. I'd pay money to see it. Besides if you could do it the specific dice wouldn't matter.

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To the spin a dice by muscle memory and change the outcome guy. That is one of the most hilarious and silly things I've ever heard. It's one of those things which seem smart in your head but when the rest of us read it it's just looney. It's simply not possible. Try it. I'd pay money to see it. Besides if you could do it the specific dice wouldn't matter.

There are people who think you can influence dice in that way. I've actually encounter some online forums devoted to the idea where they take it very seriously.

Of course, from what I understand, the casino owners in Vegas don't put any stock in the concept.

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These dice are made unbalanced, Look at any point on an ffg die and you will see a 50% of hitting, 25% of an eyeball, and 25% blank no matter how you roll it. These dice can be manipulated without allot of practice, perhaps even being able to learn how to roll the dice just from muscle memory, or you an infinite loop of the top half of the die could result. One of the easiest things to do with trick rolling isnt by making a certain result happen, but eliminating a result.

 

Since we dont use D6's Ill give an example. Imagine a D6, if the only result that can hurt me is a 1, I can hold the 1 and the 6 parallel to the table and use the 1 and 6 as an axis to the spin I give my dice. With only a little practice, I have eliminated the 1 from appearing (perhaps not 100% as it could bounce unpredictable, but I will no longer have a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1.

For one, I'm 100% confident that the actual product dice will accurately mirror the FFG dice in terms of icon placement. I'd be seriously surprised if the makers made such an elementary error as putting the symbols in the wrong place.

Secondly, are you really serious? You're worried about dice ninjas manipulating their rolls?

That's just so... out of this world.

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the muscle memory is certainly stretching it. But look at the picture clearly the symbols are grouped (if two blanks are touching you can also do the math). Vegas hires magicians all the time to train staff, I have a friend who was a dealer at a Casino in Vegas, and also a couple of other friends who got hired to train the staff on what to look for in a cheater.  I was going to make a post on a point when rolling a d6 proving that I was lucky got me lucky once, but its best saved to when Im not posting things online at midnight.  I learned how to roll dice because I knew I could use it for entertainment, not for personal gains -getting girl's numbers was just a side effect-but to make people happy. Some people take years upon years to learn how to twirl a baton, others pick it up in just  a short amount of time. Just to be clear, I was a professional magician -I gave it up for personal reasons-.

 

People steal money from their companies for different reasons:
1 because they need to (this can come up if a reputation is at stake. Look at your local magic or yugho players)
2. because they justify it, often the ones we like to think of as the lowlifes fall into this category

3. because they can. If you run a business, you have to hold your employees to a certain accountability, otherwise just having the ability to get away with it can cause them to start stealing.

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the muscle memory is certainly stretching it. But look at the picture clearly the symbols are grouped (if two blanks are touching you can also do the math).

That's just a promotional image. I'm sure the actual production run will have the icons in the right places.

Vegas hires magicians all the time to train staff, I have a friend who was a dealer at a Casino in Vegas, and also a couple of other friends who got hired to train the staff on what to look for in a cheater.  I was going to make a post on a point when rolling a d6 proving that I was lucky got me lucky once, but its best saved to when Im not posting things online at midnight.  I learned how to roll dice because I knew I could use it for entertainment, not for personal gains -getting girl's numbers was just a side effect-but to make people happy. Some people take years upon years to learn how to twirl a baton, others pick it up in just  a short amount of time. Just to be clear, I was a professional magician -I gave it up for personal reasons-.

If you're worried about the kleptomaniac professional magician crowd infiltrating the X Wing tournament scene, then I don't know what to tell you.

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the muscle memory is certainly stretching it. But look at the picture clearly the symbols are grouped (if two blanks are touching you can also do the math).

That's just a promotional image. I'm sure the actual production run will have the icons in the right places.

Vegas hires magicians all the time to train staff, I have a friend who was a dealer at a Casino in Vegas, and also a couple of other friends who got hired to train the staff on what to look for in a cheater.  I was going to make a post on a point when rolling a d6 proving that I was lucky got me lucky once, but its best saved to when Im not posting things online at midnight.  I learned how to roll dice because I knew I could use it for entertainment, not for personal gains -getting girl's numbers was just a side effect-but to make people happy. Some people take years upon years to learn how to twirl a baton, others pick it up in just  a short amount of time. Just to be clear, I was a professional magician -I gave it up for personal reasons-.

If you're worried about the kleptomaniac professional magician crowd infiltrating the X Wing tournament scene, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

I dont think you know what a kleptomaniac is

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That's just a promotional image. I'm sure the actual production run will have the icons in the right places.

Actually that thought has crossed my mind too and I believe it might be true. Who in his right mind tries to release dice with wrongly distributed symbols/numbers? They would have to be extremely stupid.

I am inclined towards thinking that it's just a picture to show clearly all the pretty, custom symbols on those dice, otherwise the whole idea is a huge flop. In fact - if there is nothing wrong with them (we will see after some time when people bought them) I might just get myself a set of those, because they look better to me than regular dice, especially when I will get myself a set o' sweet acryllic templates.

And I believe that when more and more people start buying custom dice, FFG will allow them on tournaments just like every other game does.

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Did you really miss that? They are supposed to be 300mm but some are +1mm and some are -1mm. That means if your opponent has a 301mm range ruler and you have a 299mm range ruler he has a 2mm advantage with a +/-1 on any given FFG cardboard template.

Look at this logically. If someone actually wanted to doctor dice why would they use clear dice? The opaque dice provided by FFG would make it much easier to alter the dice and hide it.

 

I think that's probably more wear and tear than machining faults. Thing is, you can easily check a template if you've got any doubt. You can't check a die.

 

I'm not sure how you'd hide alterations to the FFG dice or even make them at all, given they're solid plastic. As for clear dice, I suppose if you wanted to weight those you'd need to do it in the manufacturing process. I wonder how much density variations would alter the optical properties of them.

 

The bottom line is FFG's rules are that the only indisputably legal components are their own. You can use 3rd party stuff if your opponent is okay with it, but both they and the TO have the right to request you use official components or the same components.

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I sure someone mentioned a couple of pages ago that the project runner has already stated that the finished product will have the symbols distributed "correctly".

Edit: yep, in the comments for the project they say the faces will be distributed like the FFG ones.

Again, this was stated on page 3, post 51.

Edited by Forgottenlore

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I am inclined towards thinking that it's just a picture to show clearly all the pretty, custom symbols on those dice, otherwise the whole idea is a huge flop. In fact - if there is nothing wrong with them (we will see after some time when people bought them) I might just get myself a set of those, because they look better to me than regular dice, especially when I will get myself a set o' sweet acryllic templates.

 

Unlikely that they had different prototypes specially made to showcase all the symbols when they easily could have just put multiple dice at various orientations. It's more likely that they screwed up the symbol placement.

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I am inclined towards thinking that it's just a picture to show clearly all the pretty, custom symbols on those dice, otherwise the whole idea is a huge flop. In fact - if there is nothing wrong with them (we will see after some time when people bought them) I might just get myself a set of those, because they look better to me than regular dice, especially when I will get myself a set o' sweet acryllic templates.

 

Unlikely that they had different prototypes specially made to showcase all the symbols when they easily could have just put multiple dice at various orientations. It's more likely that they screwed up the symbol placement.

 

 

They updated their FAQ:

 

Are these dice tournament legal?

  • It seems to be a question, that everybody is really discussing about.

    Well, the simple and clear answer is

    NO

    They are not.

    And we have no intention to push into this direction.

    The dice were made to give casual players a nice looking 3rd party tool for their casual games with friends, home brew games and community play.

    These dice are an accessory and "fun" product, and in no way a substitution or replacement for the original dice.

    If you want to attend a tournament with these dice please be advised that the rules clearly state that 3rd party dice are not allowed.

    Last updated:

    Mon, May 25 2015 9:37 PM EDT

     

The dice look ... wrong!? Are they correct?

The pictures we posted are from our prototypes.

Yes, both dice (green and red) had a flaw with one of the symbols.

As answered in the comment section, we will provide more pictures as soon as we get the new dice in our hands to prove and show that all the symbols are, where they belong.

 

Now I'm curious what the stretch goal tokens will look like.

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I'm not sure how you'd hide alterations to the FFG dice or even make them at all, given they're solid plastic.

"Classic way" to do that is to drill a hole on one side and put a small weight then close with putty and repaint on top. It's much talked about, but in 15+ years of 40k tournaments I think I saw it once. I don't think it's a serious issue.

 

There is also the fabled microwave/hot car/oven technique to slightly change the form of the dice, but I've never seen a successful result :)

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