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Torresse

FFG knock off dice...

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So there are two general objections here.

1. "This cuts into FFG's profits.": It probably does, but as a customer, I would not care about this if I were you. We are not playing this game to keep a company alive, just as they are not selling the game to make our spare time more fun. But the point is rather moot, since 3rd party dice should not cut too deep into FFG's profits.

2. "These dice cannot be trusted.": Welcome to the world of RPGs, where everyone uses dice from different manufacturers. None of the dice at a typical gaming table have ever been tested. Many are actually slightly skewed. We don't mind because we don't know.

If someone wants to win so desperately that he will bring loaded dice to a casual game, or manipulating them, I'd be more than happy to just concede before wasting both our time by actually playing. After all, if the outcome is already known, why not just cut out the middle bit?

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There was a thread a while back about someone who put his official FFG dice through some kind of medical scanner.Turns out, they've got air bubbles.Guess what you don't have in transparent dice?Air bubbles.Therefore these knock-off dice should be MORE standardised than the official FFG ones, which have random air bubbles inside them.

I happen to have just read that thread recently. He scanned both the regular core set dice and the transparent prize dice and found them the be essentially the same in the amount of bubbles inside them.

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There was a thread a while back about someone who put his official FFG dice through some kind of medical scanner.Turns out, they've got air bubbles.Guess what you don't have in transparent dice?Air bubbles.Therefore these knock-off dice should be MORE standardised than the official FFG ones, which have random air bubbles inside them.

I happen to have just read that thread recently. He scanned both the regular core set dice and the transparent prize dice and found them the be essentially the same in the amount of bubbles inside them.

 

 

 

There was a thread a while back about someone who put his official FFG dice through some kind of medical scanner.

Turns out, they've got air bubbles.

Guess what you don't have in transparent dice?

Air bubbles.

Therefore these knock-off dice should be MORE standardised than the official FFG ones, which have random air bubbles inside them.

 

That was/is me  :)

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/175327-inside-look-of-the-2014-and-2015-promo-dice/?hl=%2Blook+%2Binside

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You can check template very easily, literally hold them next to a standard template. Checking the mass distribution in a die is somewhat more complex.

 

Third party tokens and templates are one thing: tokens grant no advantage and templates are very easily checked. Dice... well, let's just say the ruling on dice isn't with an aim to increasing sales.

Holding up your "official" template won't necessarily tell you either. I recently read an article about how FFGs standard movement and firing templates are often not exact in their size. This makes sense to me because they are mass produced cardboard pieces. So I measured as many as I could get my hands on. I found (similar to the article) that range rulers were between 299-301mm in length with similar variations among movement templates. Don't make the mistakes of assuming that because it's FFG official that that means it accurate or high quality (as has been pointed out). I'd trust my 3rd party templates over an FFG official one any day. One day some really whacky player is going to call for a quality check on templates and dice at an official tournament and it's gonna get ugly. I wouldn't care if my opponent brought these dice (which I don't own any of) to an official FFG tournament event and played with them. If I thought he was up to something no good I would simply request to use his same dice as the rules allow.

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I have in my possession an unopened pack of FFG X-Wing dice that has one Red Die with what could be mistaken as two crits on it (the hit opposite the crit is missing a circle of paint in the center of the hit [boom] symbol).  I am not an dishonest person, I got this pack of dice in a trade and only noticed it when I got home. So even the FFG factory dice can have flaws/be used for cheating.

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The term you dont seem to understand is "collectibles"

 

I believe the term is "More Money Than Sense."

 

Hehe. There is some truth in this. Anyways, as long as people keep paying the prices wont drop. 

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I have in my possession an unopened pack of FFG X-Wing dice that has one Red Die with what could be mistaken as two crits on it (the hit opposite the crit is missing a circle of paint in the center of the hit [boom] symbol).  I am not an dishonest person, I got this pack of dice in a trade and only noticed it when I got home. So even the FFG factory dice can have flaws/be used for cheating.

But why not contact FFG's Customer Service, send a request to have the dice I replaced and attach a picture?.

Then you'll avoid any mistakes or risk being accused of trying to cheat. It'll save you a lot of grieve. I won a set of Translucent dice last year where one of the Evade on a green dice had a "dot" next to the squiggly arrow that had no paint in it. They send me a brand new within a week. Your red dice problem is a bit more serious since it could cause confusion in the heat of battle.

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You can check template very easily, literally hold them next to a standard template. Checking the mass distribution in a die is somewhat more complex.

 

Third party tokens and templates are one thing: tokens grant no advantage and templates are very easily checked. Dice... well, let's just say the ruling on dice isn't with an aim to increasing sales.

Holding up your "official" template won't necessarily tell you either. I recently read an article about how FFGs standard movement and firing templates are often not exact in their size. This makes sense to me because they are mass produced cardboard pieces. So I measured as many as I could get my hands on. I found (similar to the article) that range rulers were between 299-301mm in length with similar variations among movement templates. Don't make the mistakes of assuming that because it's FFG official that that means it accurate or high quality (as has been pointed out). I'd trust my 3rd party templates over an FFG official one any day. One day some really whacky player is going to call for a quality check on templates and dice at an official tournament and it's gonna get ugly. I wouldn't care if my opponent brought these dice (which I don't own any of) to an official FFG tournament event and played with them. If I thought he was up to something no good I would simply request to use his same dice as the rules allow.

 

Still, we're talking milimeters of factory variance here. Dice, however, are practically impossible to test for weighting with readily available equipment in an immediate timeframe.

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Heck, why bother with cards, just bring your team printed on a sheet and save the time of the setup.

Oh god, YES PLEASE!

Total non-issue. They'll never be allowed at any FFG-run tournaments, and you can pull out the rules and insist your opponent not use them if you want. So why the hell would you buy them?

Well, believe it or not some of us have no interest in playing at FFG events.

Still, we're talking milimeters of factory variance here. Dice, however, are practically impossible to test for weighting with readily available equipment in an immediate timeframe.

So what? Wargamers have been running competitive tournaments for years with 'regular' D6s. I'd trust a clear dice over an opaque one any day, regardless of the player or manufacturer. Who's to say you haven't doctored your own dice?

I mean, the concern about someone bringing loaded or otherwise doctored dice to a game can only be called paranoia.

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You can check template very easily, literally hold them next to a standard template. Checking the mass distribution in a die is somewhat more complex.

 

Third party tokens and templates are one thing: tokens grant no advantage and templates are very easily checked. Dice... well, let's just say the ruling on dice isn't with an aim to increasing sales.

Holding up your "official" template won't necessarily tell you either. I recently read an article about how FFGs standard movement and firing templates are often not exact in their size. This makes sense to me because they are mass produced cardboard pieces. So I measured as many as I could get my hands on. I found (similar to the article) that range rulers were between 299-301mm in length with similar variations among movement templates. Don't make the mistakes of assuming that because it's FFG official that that means it accurate or high quality (as has been pointed out). I'd trust my 3rd party templates over an FFG official one any day. One day some really whacky player is going to call for a quality check on templates and dice at an official tournament and it's gonna get ugly. I wouldn't care if my opponent brought these dice (which I don't own any of) to an official FFG tournament event and played with them. If I thought he was up to something no good I would simply request to use his same dice as the rules allow.

 

Still, we're talking milimeters of factory variance here. Dice, however, are practically impossible to test for weighting with readily available equipment in an immediate timeframe.

So you want to play your next tournament match vs an opponent who has a range ruler 2mm longer than yours? After all it is "official"? It's possible that FFG chose opaque dice because they hide flaws better and are cheaper. It's not the comparison to official dice that matter it's having dice which are balanced and do what they are supposed to. That should be the most important criteria not who made them. My point is based on the quality of FFGs products there is absolutely no reason to assume that anyone else's templates or dice or anything else would be worse. If FFG doesn't want and won't let people use them it's not about something altruistic as fairness it's all about the $$$$$.

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FFG can protect themselves, let them protect their own patents and send their own cease and desist letters, they don't need our help. This literally does not affect any of us. Everyone that is going to buy these clear dice has most likely already bought FFG's dice pack, and new players aren't gonna be invested enough to go online and search out expensive clear dice rather than just buying at dice pack at their store. 

 

And if you're worried about playing against these in tournaments, the tournament rules already have you covered.

 

During tournament play, each player is required to use components included
in official X-Wing products with the exception of third party maneuver
templates, tokens, and range rulers, the use of which is addressed below. 

 

Third party dice are not allowed in tournaments, period. FFG has drawn the line on these at tournament play, and it would foolish of them to put their foot down on this operation. Nobody's going to buy these knock-offs before they buy the real thing from FFG, and going after a game's modding community (the people that love the game enough to go the extra mile) will create resentment and bad PR for many of the game's biggest supporters. 

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They probably will allow 3rd party dice after some time. They may just sign contracts with some small companies after they prove that their dice aren't loaded - look at Warmachine - it's tournament scene is viciously competitive and harsh and yet they allow people to use third party dice like the Q-Workshop licensed faction dice.

In my opinion it's just that FFG just invested in special d8 dice which are totally useless for other games, so they have to keep selling theirs to pay up for the effort of developing, designing and manufacturing those dice.

Another thing why they might gripe about custom dice is that their "fancy tournament reward" clear dice are... quite lame to be honest. I mean... It's just clear dice - no special ornament, no alternative symbols, no special effects - it's literally just a transparent version of a regular die. Like those clear acryllic d6 dice that you can buy at your lgs for $0.25 a piece, just with x-wing symbols, nothing custom about them, so those handed out by FFG as -rewards- would turn out to be worse than something you could just buy as they present no real visual value advantage over those made by third parties.

All in all lots of you sound like X-Wing is the first tabletop miniature game you played in your lives (which is perfectly okay, mind you - I am not saying that it's bad or that your opinions aren't valid because of that), and that, along with the fact that x-wing is much more of a board game than actual miniature wargame in many aspects only skews the way people look at it.

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...Another thing why they might gripe about custom dice is that their "fancy tournament reward" clear dice are... quite lame to be honest. I mean... It's just clear dice - no special ornament, no alternative symbols, no special effects - it's literally just a transparent version of a regular die...

 

I like them a lot, to be point where I hunted down two sets.

The new ones from the Regionals, ehhh, not so much.

Edited by Marten

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...Another thing why they might gripe about custom dice is that their "fancy tournament reward" clear dice are... quite lame to be honest. I mean... It's just clear dice - no special ornament, no alternative symbols, no special effects - it's literally just a transparent version of a regular die...

 

I like them a lot, to be point where I hunted down two sets.

The new ones from the Regionals, ehhh, not so much.

Okay, I admit it, calling them "lame" isn't fair because some people may like them and "lame" suggests that they're bad. But they are some of the most mediocre dice ever, hence the mention of cheapo acryllic d6s which are just as common as regular ones.

I would have thought they would hand out something really fancy as rewards for big events rather than that. They're... unremarkable, there is no "whoaa!" factor to them. It's just clear dice, nothing more. No fancy symbols, no markings, nothing that would make people really envious like, say, proper customs would imho.

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4. The absolute biggest problem I have with this is the distribution of symbols. With practice you could get used to consistently rolling a die with only one half of it's symbols appearing. Judging by the top red die in the picture, they have four symbols all grouped in one corner. If you pick any point on an ffg attack die, you will have a blank, focus, hit, hit(or crit).

 

 

If this is correct, and it seems to be from the photo, the problem is right here.

With the nature of D8s, chucking with any kind of horisontal spin will increase the odds of having one of the four upward facings at the point of release fall face up when the die comes to rest. If, as it appears on these dice, there are 4 adjacent facings with no blanks on it could be a problem.

Not a significant problem by any means, but definately a f**k up from the guys that made them. If you're copying something, do it right.

If this observation is not the case there should be no problems unless your opponent or TO would rather you didn't use them.

 

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You can check template very easily, literally hold them next to a standard template. Checking the mass distribution in a die is somewhat more complex.

 

Third party tokens and templates are one thing: tokens grant no advantage and templates are very easily checked. Dice... well, let's just say the ruling on dice isn't with an aim to increasing sales.

Holding up your "official" template won't necessarily tell you either. I recently read an article about how FFGs standard movement and firing templates are often not exact in their size. This makes sense to me because they are mass produced cardboard pieces. So I measured as many as I could get my hands on. I found (similar to the article) that range rulers were between 299-301mm in length with similar variations among movement templates. Don't make the mistakes of assuming that because it's FFG official that that means it accurate or high quality (as has been pointed out). I'd trust my 3rd party templates over an FFG official one any day. One day some really whacky player is going to call for a quality check on templates and dice at an official tournament and it's gonna get ugly. I wouldn't care if my opponent brought these dice (which I don't own any of) to an official FFG tournament event and played with them. If I thought he was up to something no good I would simply request to use his same dice as the rules allow.

 

Still, we're talking milimeters of factory variance here. Dice, however, are practically impossible to test for weighting with readily available equipment in an immediate timeframe.

So you want to play your next tournament match vs an opponent who has a range ruler 2mm longer than yours? After all it is "official"? It's possible that FFG chose opaque dice because they hide flaws better and are cheaper. It's not the comparison to official dice that matter it's having dice which are balanced and do what they are supposed to. That should be the most important criteria not who made them. My point is based on the quality of FFGs products there is absolutely no reason to assume that anyone else's templates or dice or anything else would be worse. If FFG doesn't want and won't let people use them it's not about something altruistic as fairness it's all about the $$$$$.

 

I doubt the machining is that far off. The templates may not be identical but it's got to be a pretty poor cutter to be two millimetres out.

 

Except perhaps if someone were actively trying to make rigged dice? FFG can either say you can use third party dice or you can't. There's no way to test the third party dice in a tournament context. Third party templates however are simple enough to check.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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Is the OP not a native English speaker, can't see why the word 'upset' was used.

If you don't want to use the dice don't buy them, you are also welcome to insist any opponent you play doesn't use them for the same reason FFG doesn't.

Problem solved

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Is the OP not a native English speaker, can't see why the word 'upset' was used.

If you don't want to use the dice don't buy them, you are also welcome to insist any opponent you play doesn't use them for the same reason FFG doesn't.

Problem solved

you certainly made me question my English reading ability by trying to read your post....

Im upset because I know these dice will make their way to the competitive/premier level. I saw a player use attackwing bases at a Store Championship, then watched as he quit the game because he was told to not use the bases.

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