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clontroper5

I officially LOVE Warlord

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I think I figured it out.

The "While attacking" phrase limits this upgrade to the attack phase. For example, if this limit was missing, you could use H9s to alter dice rolled against you.

This is similar to the ECM While defending phrase, which again limits its activation.

Now, each step in the rules is an "event": (This is from memory)

1 - check range ruler and gather die pool (Insidious can trigger, dominator)

2 - roll die pool (use CF command?)

3 - attacker modify die pool (cf token?, H9, warlord, point defense reroute.

4 - defender modify die pool (scatter, evade)

Maybe select critical effect here?

5 - calculate damage (brace)

6 - take damage (redirect, haven)

So yes, you can use it each time you roll the dice as it is a separate event.

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No. PDF allows rerolling (all) crits while attacking, Warlord and H9 allows changing one die.

Absolutely correct, they have different triggers, but you can only use it once per event

I dont get to reroll crits twice, but I do get to reroll crits for each roll of the dice because I can trigger it during each roll.

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No, the "while" effect inhibits the occurance of triggering the effect again during the attacking. So if attacking is the whole process, you can only use Warlord or H9 once per "attacking". The question is, what does attacking cover? Covers it all attacks during the attack phase, covers it only one attack or covers it just one dice roll (improbable)?

 

 

No. PDF allows rerolling (all) crits while attacking, Warlord and H9 allows changing one die.

Absolutely correct, they have different triggers, but you can only use it once per event
I dont get to reroll crits twice, but I do get to reroll crits for each roll of the dice because I can trigger it during each roll.

You can only use them once per event. But Warlord and H9 are limitted in their usage to one die, while the PDR allows to reroll every crit.

 

 

I send a mail to the support, I will post the reply.

Edited by Jochmann

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How is this still a debate?

 

Attacking Squadrons with a Ship

When a ship attacks a squadron, it can perform one attack against each squadron inside the firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. Each attack is resolved separately.

 

Declare Additional Squadron Target: If the attacker is a ship and the defender was a squadron, the attacker can declare another enemy squadron as a defender and repeat steps 2 through 6. The new defender must be inside the firing arc and at attack range of the same attacking hull zone.

 

3. Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below: ◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects and the P command.

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How is this still a debate?

 

Attacking Squadrons with a Ship

When a ship attacks a squadron, it can perform one attack against each squadron inside the firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. Each attack is resolved separately.

 

Declare Additional Squadron Target: If the attacker is a ship and the defender was a squadron, the attacker can declare another enemy squadron as a defender and repeat steps 2 through 6. The new defender must be inside the firing arc and at attack range of the same attacking hull zone.

 

3. Resolve Attack Effects: The attacker can resolve attack effects as described below: ◊ Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects and the P command.

because your ship cannot attack more then 2 times, what it does it declare multiple squads as a defender.

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Ummmm....

 

 

Attacking Squadrons with a Ship

When a ship attacks a squadron, it can perform one attack against each squadron inside the firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone. Each attack is resolved separately

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But the Rrg says that 1 attack is declared against ALL squadrens, so you can only use it once

Where are you seeing this? I'm reading it right now

 

6. Declare Additional Squadron Target:

If the attacker is a ship and the defender was a squadron, the attacker can declare another enemy squadron as a defender and repeat steps 2 through 6. The new defender must be inside the firing arc and at attack range of the same attacking hull zone.

 

Basically you start over at step 1 declaring a target. I don't see any where it stating that it only counts as a single attack.

 

 

Additionally, people keep stating that those cards work like concentrate fire commands. They don't. For two very good reasons.

 

Concentrate fire commands and tokens get spent. The cards do not.

 

Concentrate fire commands (and all commands for that matter) state: A ship cannot resolve the same command more than

once per round.

 

The H9 and Warlord cards make no such statement and are not commands.

 

Nor do they state they get exhausted or discarded or spent while triggering their effect (each of which would make them one shot or one shot per turn items).

Edited by Deathseed

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well we have cracked our consensus wide open into a debate.

I think this definitely needs an clarification in the faq now...

 

Eh. I think the rules make the steps involved crystal clear, but since it is a question multiple people can't agree on, I've asked FFG for a definitive answer. ;)

 

I submitted thusly:

 

There seems to be some debate about this on the forums, so I'll ask here for all our sakes:

If a ship declares fire on multiple squadrons, can the H9 Turbolasers and/or Warlord title card effects be triggered/used against each squadron attacked/rolled against or just ONE squadron it fires at.

Put another way, can the Warlord and H9 Turbolasers card effects be used against more than one squadron during a single activation?

Edited by Deathseed

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well we have cracked our consensus wide open into a debate.

I think this definitely needs an clarification in the faq now...

 

Eh. I think the rules make the steps involved crystal clear, but since it is a question multiple people can't agree on, I've asked FFG for a definitive answer. ;)

Well I personally think they are not Crystal clear because there seems to be 2 possible interpretations.

Basically it boils down to how you interpret the "while" definition and weather each roll= one instanse of an attack

Or if one instance means all rolls in that attack(is shooting at all squadrons 1 attack?)

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Well , Brunscheon it's a debate because you're still insisting on interpreting it incorrectly. Bolding and increasing the font size don't make you any more right.

 

You are quoting from the learn to play, stop doing that. The rules reference is the "definative source of rules information for Star Wars Armada". The RRG is "the rules" for Armada. Think of the learn to play guide, as a guide that teaches new players how to play.

 

When you read "Attack" on page 2, you will find that each targeting of a squadron is not a separate attack, it is all part of one of a ships two separate attacks.

 

The "while" timing states that a "while" effect (Warlord, H9) may be resolved during the specified event and may not occur again during that instance of the event.

 

Therefore, Warlord and H9 may only be resolved once during an attack. Resolving it against each squadron would be resolving it more than once, and is not allowed.

 

Jochmann - To answer your question the Attack Phase is not the event referenced by "when attacking" attacking is the event covered under "attack". Each attack is a separate instance of the event.

 

Under FFG's templating, the card should have referenced an event that is repeated against each squadron "when attacking" if they wanted to make it usable for each roll.

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Well , Brunscheon it's a debate because you're still insisting on interpreting it incorrectly. Bolding and increasing the font size don't make you any more right.

 

You are quoting from the learn to play, stop doing that. The rules reference is the "definative source of rules information for Star Wars Armada". The RRG is "the rules" for Armada. Think of the learn to play guide, as a guide that teaches new players how to play.

 

When you read "Attack" on page 2, you will find that each targeting of a squadron is not a separate attack, it is all part of one of a ships two separate attacks.

 

The "while" timing states that a "while" effect (Warlord, H9) may be resolved during the specified event and may not occur again during that instance of the event.

 

Therefore, Warlord and H9 may only be resolved once during an attack. Resolving it against each squadron would be resolving it more than once, and is not allowed.

 

Jochmann - To answer your question the Attack Phase is not the event referenced by "when attacking" attacking is the event covered under "attack". Each attack is a separate instance of the event.

 

Under FFG's templating, the card should have referenced an event that is repeated against each squadron "when attacking" if they wanted to make it usable for each roll.

Well put. :)

Extra like+1

Brought my confidence in my earlier conclusion back

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well we have cracked our consensus wide open into a debate.

I think this definitely needs an clarification in the faq now...

 

Eh. I think the rules make the steps involved crystal clear, but since it is a question multiple people can't agree on, I've asked FFG for a definitive answer. ;)

Well I personally think they are not Crystal clear because there seems to be 2 possible interpretations.

Basically it boils down to how you interpret the "while" definition and weather each roll= one instanse of an attack

Or if one instance means all rolls in that attack(is shooting at all squadrons 1 attack?)

 

 

But I Appreciate sending the ??? To ffg

 

Aye, the while qualifier in the RR specifies an instance of an event, yet doesn't exactly tell us what an event is defined as (or an instance for that matter). Which is where I think a good bit of the debate is stemming from. Grey wording is grey.

 

Don't even get me started on how I view terms like instance through a programmer's eyes (which, incidentally, I find helpful in parsing how event sequences in rules work). :P

 

I could go on a diatribe about how each dice roll can be defined as an event, each roll a different instance of that event, but I digress.

 

Polite disagreement is the soul of civility, and also why we have the rules questions tool. ;)

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Well, it's not AN event, it THE event referenced by the effect. In this case "attacking", so each "attack" event. An Attack is very well defined.

 

It's a probem with english, you can only use gerunds after "while". Writing "while attack, do this" sounds like you can't write. While is always going to be followed by some sort of -ing. Conversely, you can write the RRG rules using just using gerunds. "you may make two attackings" sounds like a bad google translate.

Edited by drachau

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well since the guaranteed squadron damage is out of the bag (and gsds being so bloody popular) I wanted to look at the warlord + h9 combo against ships

 

the VSD - 1 very rarely gets it black dice and is essentially a 73 point neb ito firepower most of the time (red red red)

 

Red dice have 2 Criticals. 2 hits, 2 blanks, a mere one accuracy, and a double hit. By itself, Warlord has a crummy 1/8 chance to trigger.

 

With h9 and warlord, however, we get these mods to possible rolls

 

blank, blank, blank --> blank, blank, blank = well, you dun goofed

 

acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +2 damage (straight from your ass)

 

hit, blank, blank, --> acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +1 damage

 

hit, acc, blank, --> acc, hithit, blank, = + 1 damage

 

hit, hit, blank, --> hit, acc, blank, --> hit, hithit, blank = +1 damage or + 1 acc

 

hit, hit, acc, --> hit, acc, acc, --> hit, hithit, acc = +1 damage or +acc

 

hit, hit, hit, --> hit, hit, acc --> hit, hit, hithit = +1 damage or +acc

 

 

not sure how amazing that is for 16 points, but most scenarios involve magically conjuring extra damage at the cost of potentially redundant or otherwise useless accuracies. It's sort of like having a CF command that almost always gives you one extra damage instead of one extra die.

 

Again, though, 16 points (89 point Vic-1) and there is the problem of potentially needing h9 more than Warlord (1/8 acc on reds). Maybe it needs to be further comboed with an intel op?

Edited by ficklegreendice

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well since the guaranteed squadron damage is out of the bag (and gsds being so bloody popular) I wanted to look at the warlord + h9 combo against ships

 

the VSD - 1 very rarely gets it black dice and is essentially a 73 point neb ito firepower most of the time (red red red)

 

Red dice have 2 Criticals. 2 hits, 2 blanks, a mere one accuracy, and a double hit. By itself, Warlord has a crummy 1/8 chance to trigger.

 

With h9 and warlord, however, we get these mods to possible rolls

 

blank, blank, blank --> blank, blank, blank = well, you dun goofed

 

acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +2 damage (straight from your ass)

 

hit, blank, blank, --> acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +1 damage

 

hit, acc, blank, --> acc, hithit, blank, = + 1 damage

 

hit, hit, blank, --> hit, acc, blank, --> hit, hithit, blank = +1 damage or + 1 acc

 

hit, hit, acc, --> hit, acc, acc, --> hit, hithit, acc = +1 damage or +acc

 

hit, hit, hit, --> hit, hit, acc --> hit, hit, hithit = +1 damage or +acc

 

 

not sure how amazing that is for 16 points, but most scenarios involve magically conjuring extra damage at the cost of potentially redundant or otherwise useless accuracies. It's sort of like having a CF command that almost always gives you one extra damage instead of one extra die.

 

Again, though, 16 points (89 point Vic-1) and there is the problem of potentially needing h9 more than Warlord (1/8 acc on reds). Maybe it needs to be further comboed with an intel op?

 

Too busy laughing to comment.

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well since the guaranteed squadron damage is out of the bag (and gsds being so bloody popular) I wanted to look at the warlord + h9 combo against ships

 

the VSD - 1 very rarely gets it black dice and is essentially a 73 point neb ito firepower most of the time (red red red)

 

Red dice have 2 Criticals. 2 hits, 2 blanks, a mere one accuracy, and a double hit. By itself, Warlord has a crummy 1/8 chance to trigger.

 

With h9 and warlord, however, we get these mods to possible rolls

 

blank, blank, blank --> blank, blank, blank = well, you dun goofed

 

acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +2 damage (straight from your ass)

 

hit, blank, blank, --> acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +1 damage

 

hit, acc, blank, --> acc, hithit, blank, = + 1 damage

 

hit, hit, blank, --> hit, acc, blank, --> hit, hithit, blank = +1 damage or + 1 acc

 

hit, hit, acc, --> hit, acc, acc, --> hit, hithit, acc = +1 damage or +acc

 

hit, hit, hit, --> hit, hit, acc --> hit, hit, hithit = +1 damage or +acc

 

 

not sure how amazing that is for 16 points, but most scenarios involve magically conjuring extra damage at the cost of potentially redundant or otherwise useless accuracies. It's sort of like having a CF command that almost always gives you one extra damage instead of one extra die.

 

Again, though, 16 points (89 point Vic-1) and there is the problem of potentially needing h9 more than Warlord (1/8 acc on reds). Maybe it needs to be further comboed with an intel op?

 

Too busy laughing to comment.

 

why? 

 

Had you dun goofed and rolled 3 blanks?

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well since the guaranteed squadron damage is out of the bag (and gsds being so bloody popular) I wanted to look at the warlord + h9 combo against ships

 

the VSD - 1 very rarely gets it black dice and is essentially a 73 point neb ito firepower most of the time (red red red)

 

Red dice have 2 Criticals. 2 hits, 2 blanks, a mere one accuracy, and a double hit. By itself, Warlord has a crummy 1/8 chance to trigger.

 

With h9 and warlord, however, we get these mods to possible rolls

 

blank, blank, blank --> blank, blank, blank = well, you dun goofed

 

acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +2 damage (straight from your ass)

 

hit, blank, blank, --> acc, blank, blank, --> hithit, blank, blank = +1 damage

 

hit, acc, blank, --> acc, hithit, blank, = + 1 damage

 

hit, hit, blank, --> hit, acc, blank, --> hit, hithit, blank = +1 damage or + 1 acc

 

hit, hit, acc, --> hit, acc, acc, --> hit, hithit, acc = +1 damage or +acc

 

hit, hit, hit, --> hit, hit, acc --> hit, hit, hithit = +1 damage or +acc

 

 

not sure how amazing that is for 16 points, but most scenarios involve magically conjuring extra damage at the cost of potentially redundant or otherwise useless accuracies. It's sort of like having a CF command that almost always gives you one extra damage instead of one extra die.

 

Again, though, 16 points (89 point Vic-1) and there is the problem of potentially needing h9 more than Warlord (1/8 acc on reds). Maybe it needs to be further comboed with an intel op?

 

Too busy laughing to comment.

 

why? 

 

Had you dun goofed and rolled 3 blanks?

 

 

One of my Phantoms in X-Wing did once, but no. I was chuckling at Fickle's terminology.

Edited by Deathseed

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