Question on Garm Bel Iblis.

[DWRR 898]

Surely if we want the effect to check newly assigned tokens as already existing tokes the effect would have been an "after" trigger.

"After you assign a token to a ship if there is already..."

Surely a "when" effect happens before the effect is resolved (tokens assigned) but after the effect has been announced and targets selected/costs paid.

I would have no problem with Wildhorns reading if the situation if only it read as an "after" action.

But I'm happy to be wrong in this case because I believe no matter the rules as written it should be different command tokens all the time.

Edited May 22, 2015 by DWRR

[DWRR 898]

Also...

If the tokens that are being assigned are counted as assigned for the purposes of checking and discarding, every time you want to assign 1 token you will check and already have that token and so have to discard it...

[BergerFett 708]

FFG customer service has told me that this inquiry has been passed onto the Armada rules guys duders (i dont know their real title).  Hoping to hear back by end of today.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Couple things...

First off if you have a rules question you can use this form to submit it.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Basically it fires off an email to the rules people for any given game. Typically that's also the games designers. In X-Wing a rules question gets answered by Alex of Frank.

Second I'll show an example of how FFG works sometimes... I know it's X-Wing not Armada but it's a good example. Thankfully they learned a lot from X-Wing and Armada and Imp Assault have tighter rules. In X-Wing turrets don't actually work RAW, so FFG simply stated they're allowed to break the rules.

In X-Wing here's a brief list of how the combat phase works.

1) Declare target - The target ship must be inside the attackers Firing Arc and in Range to be valid.

2) Roll Attack Dice - in this step you determine which weapon you'll use to attack and roll a number of dice based on the weapon + other effects.

Turrets let you fire on targets outside your primary arc. But RAW a ship that is outside your primary arc is not a valid target, and you don't decide what weapon to use until after you pick a target. So you can't pick a ship outside your primary arc to shoot with the turret.

FFG still hasn't changed the rules, which would be fairly simple, just have the weapon choice happen before you declare the target. But instead they just said 'It works as intended not RAW'.

So for those who haven't played much X-Wing and are new to FFG games you can expect to see the occasional ruling that makes you go "WTH?? That's not what the rules say."

Edited May 22, 2015 by VanorDM

[DWRR 898]

Hopefully the ruling is only one of each token.

Obvious intent.

[mauler78 1]

I know this is a weak argument to add, but you could also look at the components that come with the ship.

 

The punch outs for each ship only come with 1 of each command token.  The could be because a ship could never have more then one of each.

[kami689 156]

I know this is a weak argument to add, but you could also look at the components that come with the ship.

 

The punch outs for each ship only come with 1 of each command token.  The could be because a ship could never have more then one of each.

 

That is actually a very good point, it at least adds weight to what the designers (hopefully) intended.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Well... Only sorta.

The HWK-290 with Moldy Crow can have an unlimited number of focus tokens, but the ship only comes with 2 or 3. Tycho can have an unlimited number of stress and A-Wings only come with 1 stress token IIRC.

[MaverickNZ 591]

Well... Only sorta.The HWK-290 with Moldy Crow can have an unlimited number of focus tokens, but the ship only comes with 2 or 3. Tycho can have an unlimited number of stress and A-Wings only come with 1 stress token IIRC.

Yeah, but I don't think either of those ships were a wave one release and you could at minimum combine them with the components in the core set, so it could be argued that people would have enough components for that if they owned anything more than the core set.

Armada however is different as there is only one of each token per command dial, so could very very easily outstrip components if the intended use is to have double up tokens.

[wtfboar 47]

I could not find another post asking this question so I have decided to ask it myself.

 

The Rules Reference book says you may spend a command dial to assign your ship a token of the same command.  It also says when you assign a token that you already have you forfeit the older token of the same type.

 

Now Garm Bel states that on your 1st and 5th turns you game commands = to the number of command value you have.  You also at turn 1 have no command tokens on you.  Und my conclusion states that because Garms ability triggers at once simultaneously, and you have no tokens on you yet, you can add X of the same command token to your ship.  Also the rules reference says you assign a token while Garm says you gain.

 

Rules lawyery, yes, but would still like some clarification on this.

 

-Bergz

The Armada Learn to Play Rulebook clearly says you cannot have more then 1 type of token at any time. On Page 12 under command tokens. It says, word for word: in sentence two:

"The maximum number of command tokens that a ship can have is equal to its command value, and a ship CANNOT have more then ONE copy of each type of command token."

  It doesn't matter at all when they gain them same time or not. Because you can never have more then one type of command token on a ship ever at any point. 

The intent of Garm is to let you start the game with one type of each command token up to your command value. 

[Aminar 1,949]

This topic is incredibly amusing.

Words can have multiple meanings, and multiple words can mean the same thing and frequently do, making quoting distinct dictionary definitions worthless in this case. Context is a key component of language. The context here is the rules document. The rules document clears states the rule.

At best what is actuallylearned here is that Garms wording does not function because Gain is the wrong word. A token must be assigned as that's how the rule book discusses them.

So either he gets no tokens. Or you are assigning them by uses of synonyms(gain/assign meaning the same thing). Pick one. There is no way he gives 3 of the same token.

[DWRR 898]

It's got nothing to do with the meaning of gain over assign.

It's got everything to do with the mechanics of how multiple tokens are assigned simultaneously, of which there is nothing in the RRG.

Even though intent is pretty obvious on this case.

[Wildhorn 453]

This topic is incredibly amusing.

Words can have multiple meanings, and multiple words can mean the same thing and frequently do, making quoting distinct dictionary definitions worthless in this case. Context is a key component of language. The context here is the rules document. The rules document clears states the rule.

At best what is actuallylearned here is that Garms wording does not function because Gain is the wrong word. A token must be assigned as that's how the rule book discusses them.

So either he gets no tokens. Or you are assigning them by uses of synonyms(gain/assign meaning the same thing). Pick one. There is no way he gives 3 of the same token.

 

If you check my posts, you will learn that FFG use either Assign or Gain to mean the same thing.

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Simply put if you are Assigned a token you Gain it. And if you Gain a token, you've been Assigned it. In regards to the manner that FFG interchanges either term.

Edited May 25, 2015 by ScottieATF

[Jochmann 88]

Funily, i now prefare the RAW interpretation: GBI can assign 3x the same token. I think he is to pricey compared to other commanders if he can't. Nevertheless, I think RAW =| RAI.

[MaverickNZ 591]

FYI, I got an email back from my rule clarification request from James Kniffen, Games Designer at FFG.

 

"When a ship gains command tokens from Garm's effect, it still cannot end up with more than one copy of each command token. If it choses to gain multiple tokens of the same type, it must discard down to one of that type."

 

He also clarified that Mon Mothma is a replacement for the existing evade ability, rather than adding to it, and that both cards will be featured on the next FAQ.

Edited June 3, 2015 by MaverickNZ

[Slugrage 5,011]

... and logic prevails, in spite of the dedicated efforts of the Rules Lawyers Trade Federation.

[Corellian Corvette 1,733]

Yay we broke the rules and now the designers need to get out their rules duck tape and fix them again.

[Reiryc 619]

Finally got a response.  Although already posted, here is what James said:

 

Hello, Greg,

 

In response to your question:

 

Rules Question:

Question about command tokens and command card Garm Bel Iblis. His card states, "At the start of the first round and the fifth round, each friendly ship may gain a number of command tokens equal to its command value. The rules reference guide under command tokes states, "When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token." So the question arises, if a ship has zero command tokens already on its ship at the beginning of round 1, can that ship get 3 tokens of the same type? The crux of the question stems from what does the word already mean when being assigned command tokens? Does it mean having the token on that card before getting the 3 identical tokens or does it mean you check for identical tokens after being assigned them? So a real world example to help explain: Round 1, nebulon B has zero command tokens. Rebel players uses Garm bel iblis and assigns 2 concentrate fire tokens to the nebulon B. Does the player keep both concentrate fire tokens on that ship because no concentrate fire tokens were already on the ship when the command tokens were assigned? thanks, Greg

 

The core rule that a ship cannot have more than one copy of the same command token still applies. The clarifications in the Rules Reference are intended to address how to resolve having excess tokens. In Garm’s situation, the player must discard excess command tokens of the same type, then chooses and discards any command tokens he has in excess of his command value.

 

Should an ability in the future ever allow a ship to have more than one copy of the same token, Garm absolutely can allow you to gain and retain more than one copy of the same type.

 

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com

 

 

 

One of the interesting points I think is that that garm can allow you got get more than one token of the same type, but it needs to be coupled with something else that doesn't exist yet to break the base rule.  I do wonder if he included that because they are looking make such an ability.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Like movement and executing a maneuver. Except in this circumstance, the ship is getting the tokens all at once not one at a time. This means that by the rules you never had a token and don't need to discard any.

I am in agreement with this question

So I reckon we can boil this all down to a simple question...

 

When an effect results in a ship gaining or being assigned multiple command tokens as a single instance are the tokens gained or assigned one at a time or are they all assigned/gained simultaneously?