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BergerFett

Question on Garm Bel Iblis.

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I could not find another post asking this question so I have decided to ask it myself.

 

The Rules Reference book says you may spend a command dial to assign your ship a token of the same command.  It also says when you assign a token that you already have you forfeit the older token of the same type.

 

Now Garm Bel states that on your 1st and 5th turns you game commands = to the number of command value you have.  You also at turn 1 have no command tokens on you.  Und my conclusion states that because Garms ability triggers at once simultaneously, and you have no tokens on you yet, you can add X of the same command token to your ship.  Also the rules reference says you assign a token while Garm says you gain.

 

Rules lawyery, yes, but would still like some clarification on this.

 

-Bergz

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You can only have one copy of a token banked on a ship, pg. 3 RR.

"When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token."

You could get multiple of a single token but when you get it you discard the previous one, so you would be shooting yourself in the foot. There is nothing on the card contridicting the above rule so it stands, it would need a line that says that all tokens can be of the same type or something similar.

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You can only have one copy of a token banked on a ship, pg. 3 RR.

"When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token."

You could get multiple of a single token but when you get it you discard the previous one, so you would be shooting yourself in the foot. There is nothing on the card contridicting the above rule so it stands, it would need a line that says that all tokens can be of the same type or something similar.

 

Like I said Garm states you may Gain the token, not assign it (kind of a stretch i know but....PHRASING).  also when I gain 3 of the same tokens, I do no previously have a token on me as its not add 1 add 2 then add 3 you add 3 at the same time.  Based on these 2 factors I would argue you can GBI 3 of the same command token turns 1 and 5.

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You can only have one copy of a token banked on a ship, pg. 3 RR.

"When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token."

You could get multiple of a single token but when you get it you discard the previous one, so you would be shooting yourself in the foot. There is nothing on the card contridicting the above rule so it stands, it would need a line that says that all tokens can be of the same type or something similar.

 

Like I said Garm states you may Gain the token, not assign it (kind of a stretch i know but....PHRASING).  also when I gain 3 of the same tokens, I do no previously have a token on me as its not add 1 add 2 then add 3 you add 3 at the same time.  Based on these 2 factors I would argue you can GBI 3 of the same command token turns 1 and 5.

 

 

Bel Iblis could absolutely give out 3 of the same token.  You would then immediately discard 2 of them.  You absolutely could do it.  You just don't get anything from it, and it would be a very bad decision.

 

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You can only have one copy of a token banked on a ship, pg. 3 RR.

"When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token."

You could get multiple of a single token but when you get it you discard the previous one, so you would be shooting yourself in the foot. There is nothing on the card contridicting the above rule so it stands, it would need a line that says that all tokens can be of the same type or something similar.

 

Like I said Garm states you may Gain the token, not assign it (kind of a stretch i know but....PHRASING).  also when I gain 3 of the same tokens, I do no previously have a token on me as its not add 1 add 2 then add 3 you add 3 at the same time.  Based on these 2 factors I would argue you can GBI 3 of the same command token turns 1 and 5.

 

 

Bel Iblis could absolutely give out 3 of the same token.  You would then immediately discard 2 of them.  You absolutely could do it.  You just don't get anything from it, and it would be a very bad decision.

 

 

 

Why would you discard two?  I didn't see anything that said if you have multiple of the same token discard to one, i just saw the Assign rule that has been mentioned.  Maybe I am being stubborn and not seeing things clearly but based of the wording in the book and the RRG, I do not see why I can not give myself 3 fire powers lets say and keep them all.  I am not assign tokens, and even if i was.  I am assigning 3 at once not 3 one at a time.  Thus their is no token already on my ship to force me to discard a same named token.

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The RR says words to the effect that you can't have more than one of the same command token on a single ship (I forget the exacting wording, but that's the gist of it).

 

I think you are trying to twist the rules to make Garm's ability do more than was intended :P

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The glitch here is that the rules governing how many of each token a ship can have are tied into the rules for assigning tokens.

 

So there actually isn't a rule that says "if at any time a ship has more than one type of a specific token it must discard down to one token".

 

There is simply a rule that says "if you assign a ship a token it already has you discard the original".

 

Additionally there are no rules about how you gain/assign groups of tokens this could have been avoided if there are no rules to say tokens are always gained/assigned one at a time (like damage).

 

There are loads of ways this could have been avoided but there is nothing I can see to stop this.

 

It certainly is very tricksy and rules lawyery.

Edited by DWRR

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The exact wording is in my post above. Coming from a warmachine background. Wording is everything. In that game the words assign and gain mean 2 different things. This is where I am coming from. GBI is still strong. But Id like to make sure I'm playing it correctly and honestly I don't see why I can't gain 3 of the same based on what is written in the rulebook.

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It doesn't really matter if gain or assign are different, Iblis is currently the only effect in the game that grants multiple tokens at the same time and there is no president for how they are given to the ship.

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The glitch here is that the rules governing how many of each token a ship can have are tied into the rules for assigning tokens.

 

So there actually isn't a rule that says "if at any time a ship has more than one type of a specific token it must discard down to one token".

 

There is simply a rule that says "if you assign a ship a token it already has you discard the original".

 

Additionally there are no rules about how you gain/assign groups of tokens this could have been avoided if there are no rules to say tokens are always gained/assigned one at a time (like damage).

 

There are loads of ways this could have been avoided but there is nothing I can see to stop this.

 

It certainly is very tricksy and rules lawyery.

 

You sir, are better with words than I am.  

 

So how do we light the FFG signal to get an official ruling on this?

 

I have an event I am running Saturday and expect to see this come up.  I will have to make a call based on Rules as Written which leads me to believe that yes you can gain multiples of the same type.  That is the main reason I am asking.  I don't want people to feel like they got cheated, or for people to feel like they didn't play something properly.

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Well I'm going use X-Wing as an example but please stay with me. So in X-Wing the rules state that you cannot do more than one of the same action in that ships activation but later defines that if a card would otherwise assign a token it is not considered an action of that same type, so it would be legal to do a focus action to gain a focus token and then use an ability that would "assign" the same type of token to the ship (basically cards that exclude the word "action"). Now I know what you are thinking "he's made my point for me" but my point is that in X-Wing, that distinction is outlined in the rules book. There is no distinction outlined between "assigned" and "gained" in Amada and as such the only rule that relates to this situation is the RR quote I stated above. We can only take what is specifically mentioned in the materials we have, that's not saying it won't have an errata or FAQ in the future but for right now we work with what we have.

Another arguement (that some won't like as it's a intent based one) is look at the expansion that Garm came in, it only came with 1 copy of each command token. In X-Wing if cards came with the expansion that would allow many of a single token to be gained, it came with a bunch of that token. So if this were possible wouldn't it have came with 2 or 3 copies of each token? (I know I will probably get an eyeful for this point but I don't care).

One last thing is the benefits of taking all the same token are very limited. Personally I would rather have one of each for situations that may arise and not limit myself. You can't spend more than one token of the same type in an single activation anyway, so why limit yourself to the same token for up to three activations?

Edited by skyhwk290

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Well I'm going use X-Wing as an example but please stay with me. So in X-Wing the rules state that you cannot do more than one of the same action in that ships activation but later defines that if a card would otherwise assign a token it is not considered an action of that same type, so it would be legal to do a focus action to gain a focus token and then use an ability that would "assign" the same type of token to the ship (basically cards that exclude the word "action"). Now I know what you are thinking "he's made my point for me" but my point is that in X-Wing, that distinction is outlined in the rules book. There is no distinction outlined between "assigned" and "gained" in Amada and as such the only rule that relates to this situation is the RR quote I stated above. We can only take what is specifically mentioned in the materials we have, that's not saying it won't have an errata or FAQ in the future but for right now we work with what we have.

Another arguement (that some won't like as it's a intent based one) is look at the expansion that Garm came in, it only came with 1 copy of each command token. In X-Wing if cards came with the expansion that would allow many of a single token to be gained, it came with a bunch of that token. So if this were possible wouldn't it have came with 2 or 3 copies of each token? (I know I will probably get an eyeful for this point but I don't care).

One last thing is the benefits of taking all the same token are very limited. Personally I would rather have one of each for situations that may arise and not limit myself. You can't spend more than one token of the same type in an single activation anyway, so why limit yourself to the same token for up to three activations?

 

I agree and i spoke with some of my players on saturday and we will actually put it up to a vote before anyone turns in lists.

 

The benefit is with the Rebel Gallant Haven aces high, you get 3 turns of squadron commands and dials so you can activate all 5 fighters instead of 4/5 fighters.  (3 base, token, hangar bays).

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There is no distinction outlined between "assigned" and "gained" in Amada and as such the only rule that relates to this situation is the RR quote I stated above. We can only take what is specifically mentioned in the materials we have, that's not saying it won't have an errata or FAQ in the future but for right now we work with what we have.

 

Assigned or gained it doesn't really matter here.

 

What was quoted above only rules on gaining a single token, when you already have a token of that type.

 

"When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token."

 

In the situation with Iblis, you have zero tokens on the ship, then as a single effect you dump 3/2/1 tokens on the ship (depending on Command Value)

 

So I reckon we can boil this all down to a simple question...

 

When an effect results in a ship gaining or being assigned multiple command tokens as a single instance are the tokens gained or assigned one at a time or are they all assigned/gained simultaneously?

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Another way of asking...

 

When Assigning tokens, do tokens currently being assigned as part of the effect count when checking to see how many tokens of a specific type a ship has?

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Well, the only thing I can say about it: Even if you can have multiple tokens of the same kind, you can't spend more than one of them in a single turn.

RRpg4: A ship can spend a command dial and a command token to combine their effects.

As Armada is a permitting system, you can only do, what it allows you to do. It especially states the way command effects work together, mutiple tokens of the same command aren't mentioned, thus they can't be used together.

 

Nice catch, btw. I'm sure, you've found a part of the next errata.

Edited by Jochmann

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Well, the only thing I can say about it: Even if you can have multiple tokens of the same kind, you can't spend more than one of them in a single turn.

RRpg4: A ship can spend a command dial and a command token to combine their effects.

As Armada is a permitting system, you can only do, what it allows you to do. It especially states the way command effects work together, mutiple tokens of the same command aren't mentioned, thus they can't be used together.

 

Nice catch, btw. I'm sure, you've found a part of the next errata.

 

Agreed but as I said with the Rebel Gallant Haven Aces High list.  Camping 3 Squadron tokens, to get 5 squadrons out of a squadron command instead of 4 seems really good.  just turn 1, 5 squadrons go, turn 2, 5 go, turn 3, 5 go.  Its literally the only interaction I want the clarification for because this would be my strategy if i play that list.

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Coming from a warmachine background. Wording is everything.

Warmachine has much tighter rules with well defined terms, FFG doesn't do that nearly as well.

So if you are going to hang your whole argument on "Gain is different then assign" odds are pretty good it's not supposed to work that way.

In a way trying to rules lawyer a FFG game can be tricky because there's often few really well defined terms and a bit of reading between the lines when it comes to rules. So it's rather hard to really parise things. I'd say that most TO's who do a lot of FFG type games wouldn't let you use Garm that way, based on the argument you're making.

Saying that all, because you have to adopt a different mindset with FFG games then you do with Warmahordes or Warhammer.

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Coming from a warmachine background. Wording is everything.

Warmachine has much tighter rules with well defined terms, FFG doesn't do that nearly as well.

So if you are going to hang your whole argument on "Gain is different then assign" odds are pretty good it's not supposed to work that way.

In a way trying to rules lawyer a FFG game can be tricky because there's often few really well defined terms and a bit of reading between the lines when it comes to rules. So it's rather hard to really parise things. I'd say that most TO's who do a lot of FFG type games wouldn't let you use Garm that way, based on the argument you're making.

Saying that all, because you have to adopt a different mindset with FFG games then you do with Warmahordes or Warhammer.

 

 

Completely understood.  I just find it weird when they clearly define things like YOU, AT and WITHIN very specifically that this slipped by.  Or it does work intentionally.

 

Me and my other TO have decided to let players vote on it before turning in fleet lists.  We both see each side of the arguement and feel that we alone should not make the call especially since we may play GBI.  I feel this is the best way to do it until i get a more clear cut answer.

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I am sorry to break your dreams to get 3 Squadrons tokens, but nope, doesn't work.

 

Why?

Because, "gain" and "assign" are the same thing here.

 

Because in the RRG, under Command Token section:
 

When a ship’s command dial is revealed, that dial can be spent to assign the corresponding command token to that ship

 

 

 

Then, in the Quick Reference section, under Ship Phase
 

1. Reveal Command Dial: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Choose whether to spend the dial to gain the corresponding command token.

 

So the same thing use both words.



 

Edited by Wildhorn

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I am sorry to break your dreams to get 3 Squadrons tokens, but nope, doesn't work.

 

Why?

Because, "gain" and "assign" are the same thing here.

 

Because in the RRG, under Command Token section:

 

When a ship’s command dial is revealed, that dial can be spent to assign the corresponding command token to that ship

 

 

 

Then, in the Quick Reference section, under Ship Phase

 

1. Reveal Command Dial: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Choose whether to spend the dial to gain the corresponding command token.

 

So the same thing use both words.

 

 

They arent so much arguing that - the question is, the rules say if you gain a token and have one of that token type already you must immediately discard it.

 

What they are arguing is if you no tokens, and then Bel Ibis gives you 3 tokens at the same time, you didnt have any of that type previously to make you discard any of them as you dont go "I'll have 1 squadron token, oh, and another squadron token, and hmm, a third squadron token". Its being argued that because they are being granted at the same time, it bypasses that specified rule. By the same ruling, if you already had a squadron token prior to the 5th turn activation, you couldnt then gain 3 squadron tokens, because you already had one so must discard them.

 

Not sure I agree personally with the idea, the intention in the rest of the game seems to be that ships can't carry multiple tokens of the same type so its odd that they would design Bel Ibis to do  this without specifically stating that he can, because that isn't obvious from the card wording and FFG must have realised it would cause a problem if they had intended it to be different from the rest of the ships.

Edited by MaverickNZ

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I am sorry to break your dreams to get 3 Squadrons tokens, but nope, doesn't work.

 

Why?

Because, "gain" and "assign" are the same thing here.

 

Because in the RRG, under Command Token section:

 

When a ship’s command dial is revealed, that dial can be spent to assign the corresponding command token to that ship

 

 

 

Then, in the Quick Reference section, under Ship Phase

 

1. Reveal Command Dial: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Choose whether to spend the dial to gain the corresponding command token.

 

So the same thing use both words.

 

 

seems legit.  Sounds like their was a verbage change during production and GBI got missed.

 

the second part of the question still exists.  Do i assign 3 simultaneously or individually.  at this point id actually just like to know for my own sanity.

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You gain them simultaneously, which means you gain 3x one token (in our example) and according to Effect and Timing, allow you to choose the order in which you will gain these tokens, which will make you discard previous tokens and will leave you with just one (if you choose the same token 3 times).

Edited by Wildhorn

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Apart from the timing rules dictate the order you resolve effects, not the order of the components within the effect.

If you gain 3 tokens simultaneously they all arrive at the same time.

There is a president for multiple assignments with damage cards and damage clicks on squadrons where by they are assigned one at a time, but nothing that says the same about command tokens. Unless I've not seen it in The RRG.

Does it specifically say anywhere in the RRG how multiple command tokens would be gained/assigned?

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It doesn't specify, at least that I've found, the order of token assignment.

As far as I can tell, going with rules as written, you can gain all 3 tokens of the same type simultaneously.

I don't know and am just speculating but I don't think that was the intention.

Probably will need to send this one in to ffg for a ruling clarification.

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