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BrooklynMike

Bringer of Fire question

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First, let me say that with the new cards in Dreamlands, Haster ROCKS, I finally took out my daughter's Agency/Miskotonic combo in a best-out-of-three match!

However, I hope I am interpreting "Bringer of Fire" correctly... do you only need 2 copies of BoF out to exhaust and destroy a character (see you later, Marshall Greene!), or must you have all three copies of BoF in play?

 

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If you control 2 Bringers it shouldn´t be a problem, but with only one Bringer under your control it won´t work.

On the other hand if your opponent´s Bringer isn´t exhausted you couldn´t trigger the effect because you can´t exhaust characters not under your control (besides special card effects)

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-- Hastur --
Bringer of Fire
---------------
Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 2
Icons : TTA
Subtype : Cultist.
Game Text: Action: Exhaust all copies of Bringer of Fire to choose and destroy a character with skill 4 or lower. Use this ability only if you control more than 1 card named Bringer of Fire.

 


it does say all copies......not copies you control.

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PearlJamaholic said:

it does say all copies......not copies you control.

Agree with PearlJamaholic;, because then would we have to supose that an exhausted character must not be exhausted in order to trigger the ability? If true then you could have one BoF exhausted and another active, and simply exhausting that active BoF trigger the ability....

In my opinion this could not happen and then you must be able to exhaust all the copies of BoF.

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I'm hearing two opinions here, is it possible to clarify on the following point:

Say I have 3 copies of BoF in my deck, but only two in play. Can I exhaust the two I control that are in play and destroy an enemy character?  My reason for thinking this is the case is the clause on the card that says "Use this ability only if you control more than 1 card named Bringer of Fire." Why would it specify more then one BoF if I needed to have all three in play? 

The situation where you control one BoF and your opponent has one is clear: you can only do this if you control more then one BoF.


But, the way the card reads, if I control 2 BoFs and my opponent controls 1, I should be able to exhaust my two AND my opponent's one to destroy a character, based on the Game Text: "Action: Exhaust all copies of Bringer of Fire ...". It doesn't say all copies YOU CONTROL, just all copies, which implies I can exhaust my opponent's copy as well, so long as I have 2 of my own. Any ruling on this?

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Neither the rules nor the FAQ state that a player must control a card in order to exhaust it (which makes sense, else cards like Panic and Low Blow would be pretty useless).  A player must control a card which has an Action that they want to use, of course, so as long as a player has at least two cards named "Bringer of Fire" they can use that card's Action to exhaust all copies of BoF.  There is no "if able" clause, so it seems logical that if you cannot exhaust all copies (including your opponents') then you cannot use that Action.  Suddenly, BoF looks less good, especially in multiplayer games, unless partnered with something like Miskatonic (to ready enemy BoFs) or Agency (to cost-effectively get rid of them).

IMHO, of course.  serio.gif

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 Thanks. Don't see how BoF looks less good though... if you are the only one with them then they are good for one enemy character going to the discard pile every turn. If your opponent has 1, then you get to exhaust it and still kill an enemy. If you both have two then they are offsetting, assuming both you and your opponent are willing to invest the resources and actions to do so. I'm still a fan. 

In any case, thanks for the rules insight.

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Scenario 1 (my interpretation):

Player A has one BoF, Player B has two BoFs.  Player A has a turn, sends their BoF to a story, it ends the turn exhausted.

Player B readies their BoFs and wants to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Player B cannot use the BoF's action, because it requires them to exhaust all BoFs in play and they cannot exhaust Player A's BoF (since it's already exhausted).  Player B is sad. sad.gif

 

Scenario 2 (which, I think, is the wrong interpretation):

Player A has one BoF, Player B has two BoFs. Player A has a turn, sends their BoF to a story, it ends the turn exhausted.

Player B readies their BoFs and wants to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Player B uses the BoF's action, reading into it an unwritten "if able" or "you control".  Player A complains on the forums. sorpresa.gif

 

Scenario 3 (combo-riffic):

Player A has one BoF, Player B has two BoFs. Player A has a turn, sends their BoF to a story, it ends the turn exhausted.

Player B readies their BoFs and wants to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Player B plays 'Restless and Wary' or similar to ready Player A's BoF (or Shotgun Blast to kill it, etc), then exhausts all BoFs in play to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Everyone's happy (except for the dead critter).  cool.gif

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Muzar_Nulus said:

 

Scenario 3 (combo-riffic):

Player A has one BoF, Player B has two BoFs. Player A has a turn, sends their BoF to a story, it ends the turn exhausted.

Player B readies their BoFs and wants to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Player B plays 'Restless and Wary' or similar to ready Player A's BoF (or Shotgun Blast to kill it, etc), then exhausts all BoFs in play to destroy one of Player A's characters.  Everyone's happy (except for the dead critter).  cool.gif

 

be careful with that. restless and wary is your action, then your opponent gets an action, and if they have more than one BoF they can trigger its ability on you first.

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Muzar_Nulus, you have to have in mind that you must be able to exhaust ALL copies of BoF as part of the action in order to trigger the effect... so if your oponent has one BoF you never could to trigger the effect.

This may be seen as a Hastur Faction protection against itself.... or needs a new ruling or clarification instead gui%C3%B1o.gif

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in Poland -

you exhaust ONLY your copies of bringer to destroy another character.

Id doesn't matter if opposing player has any BoF.

And yes, clarification could be useful.

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There is a reponse from Marius and others players for that in the forum or the old forum about a card like "pulled under" and the CCG "lake of Glaaki".

" you can only exhaust characters you control as a part of a cost ".

It's the case here with the BOF : the cost for the Action is to exhaust all copies of BOF you control. Like to use Pulled Under, you exhaust a character you control to destroy another one.


Pulled Under
------------
- Steadfast [CTHULHU][CTHULHU] -
Type : Event
Cost : 0
Subtype :
Game Text : Action: Exhaust a character with at least 2 T icons to choose and destroy an exhausted non-Ancient One character.
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Jesus Garcia
Collector's Info : CS F57

Lake of Glaaki
--------------
Type : Support
Cost : 3
Subtype : Location.
Game Text : Action: exhaust and exhaust X characters to choose and wound a character with skill X or lower committed to a story.
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Guy Gentry
Collector's Info : MN R126

 

 

 

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Of course, Dadajef, you are right, but BoF have a different text; to trigger the action says "exhaust all copies" of BoF, not says "exhaust all copies of BoF you control" nor "exhaust at least two BoF"... really confusing preocupado.gif

But what you say seems logical... that the effect could be triggered only exhausting those BoF you control, regardless your oponents have BoF in play or not  sounds nice corazon.gif

 

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Totally agree with Dadajeff opinion : You can't exhaust cards you don't control.

And if the card has be templated to concern the possible Opponent's BoF, there would have a text like this : "Exhaust all copies in play" or anything else. Templating thus seems explicit to me !

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The argument that you cannot exhaust cards that you do not control to pay for your Actions seems persuasive (and common-sense-ical) to me, however, I can't find it in the rules.

The argument that you cannot exhaust cards that you do not control doesn't work, else Syndicate would be in for a world of errata'd hurt.

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The text of Prodigee should be : " You can't exhaust cards you don't control to pay a triggered effect ".

But sure, you can exhaust card of your opponent as result of triggered effects. It's the Syndicate's game.

You will not find it in the rules, we have spoken about that in this forum or the old one but I don't find where.

It's may be a good idea to write that in the next FAQ, no ?
 

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Dadajef said:

The text of Prodigee should be : " You can't exhaust cards you don't control to pay a triggered effect ".

But sure, you can exhaust card of your opponent as result of triggered effects. It's the Syndicate's game.

You will not find it in the rules, we have spoken about that in this forum or the old one but I don't find where.

It's may be a good idea to write that in the next FAQ, no ?
 

 

Thank for the reminding gran_risa.gif 

My words were over my thought, or vice-versa, I do'nt Know ....

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To the original poster:

Yes, you can use the ability with "only" two copies of Bringer of Fire on your side of the field. The point of the text is that you need multiple Bringers to unlock its ability; just one won't do. And it is a rather powerful card, assuming you can get a second copy out -- but that's the challenge, isn't it?

I probably wouldn't use the card in Mono Hastur (which is hard to play in LCG anyway), but it can be absolutely devastating in Shub-Hastur. Draw and play one Bringer normally, and then use Shocking Transformation (my favorite Shub card so far) to replace something expendable with a second Bringer. Fireworks ensue :)

Also keep in mind you can do tricky stuff like leaving one Bringer at home and committing another to a story, exhausting the one at home to destroy one of the opponent's characters, and then untapping the committed Bringer with Arcane so you can use it to destroy another of the opponent's characters after story resolution is finished. Granted, you have to win Arcane with the committed Bringer for that to work, but as you can destroy almost any of the opponent's characters, you can use the one that stays at home to make sure you win Arcane at the story the other is committed to.

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Amante said:

Also keep in mind you can do tricky stuff like leaving one Bringer at home and committing another to a story, exhausting the one at home to destroy one of the opponent's characters, and then untapping the committed Bringer with Arcane so you can use it to destroy another of the opponent's characters after story resolution is finished. Granted, you have to win Arcane with the committed Bringer for that to work, but as you can destroy almost any of the opponent's characters, you can use the one that stays at home to make sure you win Arcane at the story the other is committed to.

It doesn't work, you must exhaust all your copies to trigger the effect. If you have 2 BoF you must exhaust the 2 copies, not just one.

In your example, you could destroy only one character after you untap the commited BoF, because your two Bof will be ready and so you can exhaust both.

 

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