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Kravel

2nd edition to 3rd edition price comparision

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Dustin said:

For what you are getting, it does seem reasonable from a cost perspective. But what about getting new people into the game?

 

Didn't I read somewhere that 1 box had everything 4 players needed to play? So, the test drive would be using the GMs equipment, right? If two people at your table buy the box you should have enough stuff for more players than can comfortably fit at most tables.

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NezziR said:

Dustin said:

For what you are getting, it does seem reasonable from a cost perspective. But what about getting new people into the game?

 

Didn't I read somewhere that 1 box had everything 4 players needed to play? So, the test drive would be using the GMs equipment, right? If two people at your table buy the box you should have enough stuff for more players than can comfortably fit at most tables.

As has been discussed many, many, many times already if you are in the 1% of groups lucky enough to have Players that contribute to the cost of games go you. But the overwelming majority of GM's have to pay for everything themselves. So the idea of buying two sets is impossible to all but the wealthiest GM's.

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DeathFromAbove said:

So:

1) They used more "fluff" to describe something that, in older editions, was shorter but equally playable (quite well).

2) There are more words about on "how to use" the new trinkets or how to play.

3) There are blank pages scattered around the books.

You seem pretty sure about this. Did you actually flip through these books?

Or are you just making big assumptions?

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Necrozius said:

DeathFromAbove said:

 

So:

1) They used more "fluff" to describe something that, in older editions, was shorter but equally playable (quite well).

2) There are more words about on "how to use" the new trinkets or how to play.

3) There are blank pages scattered around the books.

 

 

You seem pretty sure about this. Did you actually flip through these books?

Or are you just making big assumptions?

 

You can add to the assumptions, if you have more.

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DeathFromAbove said:

 

DeathFromAbove said:

 You can add to the assumptions, if you have more.

If you watch the Gencon video's and I have, in film 2 Jay did go into some detail of what was in each book.

4 Books roughly 100 pages each.

1) Rule Book: Basic Mechanics+ How all the Boardgame bits work. 100 ish pages of rules sounds fine to me.

2) Games Master Book: An unparralelled Guide to being a Games Master. Lots of info on how and when to use the Boardgame stuff and how to write a WARHAMMER campaign (Not just any campaign but how to get that special Warhammer feel). A Full Bestiary which could easily take up half a book by itself, Note I have no idea how large the Bestiary actually is. A complete introductory Adventure, I think this is the Goblins and the Coach that we have heard about. Defending a Coach is very much a classic Warhammer scene but i'm not sure it could be considered a full Scenario, of course there could be a lot more to it than that or I maybe totally wrong on what the adventure is about. All of which sounds very good but it will be interesting to see it done in about 100 pages. It sounds like a lot of material to cover in depth in only 100 pages. Hopefully it has been achieved.

3) Magic Book: Detailing the eight colours, hedge wizardry, something on dark magic and a section about roleplaying a wizard. It sounds like there will be nothing on racial magic, most likely saved for future racial supplements, which I find annoying. RoSv2 was repeative, heavily padded, concentrated on Imperial Human Wizards to the exclusion of everything except Dwarf Runesmiths and left much to be desired IMO. So i think that it is posssible to write a better magic book than RoSv2 in 100 pages. Essentually if FFG removed the padding, Rune Magic and adventure from Rosv2 there would only be 100 pages left if that. However, it appears that like RoSv2 the Magic book will be very Imperial Human centric, so even if FFG make a good job of the material provided it may feel like a lot is missing.

4) Religion Book: This book will detail the 9 major religions of the Empire. So I guess 10 pages per religion and a little info on general religion maybe something on Dwarf and Elven religion and Jay says there's something on heretics/religious troublemakers etc.. (maybe that will include some Cultists). 10 pages per religion is enough to give a good overview. However, I doubt it will be on the same level as the Tome of Salvation and it appears that there will be little or nothing on Chaos Gods (Lesser or Greater), Minor Deities, Law Gods or other racial Gods such as the Ogres Maw. 

I maybe completely wrong but these are my best guesses based on what has been released by FFG.

 

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Foolishboy said:

 

If you watch the Gencon video's and I have, in film 2 Jay did go into some detail of what was in each book.

4 Books roughly 100 pages each.

1) Rule Book: Basic Mechanics+ How all the Boardgame bits work. 100 ish pages of rules sounds fine to me.

2) Games Master Book: An unparralelled Guide to being a Games Master. Lots of info on how and when to use the Boardgame stuff and how to write a WARHAMMER campaign (Not just any campaign but how to get that special Warhammer feel). A Full Bestiary which could easily take up half a book by itself, Note I have no idea how large the Bestiary actually is. A complete introductory Adventure, I think this is the Goblins and the Coach that we have heard about. Defending a Coach is very much a classic Warhammer scene but i'm not sure it could be considered a full Scenario, of course there could be a lot more to it than that or I maybe totally wrong on what the adventure is about. All of which sounds very good but it will be interesting to see it done in about 100 pages. It sounds like a lot of material to cover in depth in only 100 pages. Hopefully it has been achieved.

3) Magic Book: Detailing the eight colours, hedge wizardry, something on dark magic and a section about roleplaying a wizard. It sounds like there will be nothing on racial magic, most likely saved for future racial supplements, which I find annoying. RoSv2 was repeative, heavily padded, concentrated on Imperial Human Wizards to the exclusion of everything except Dwarf Runesmiths and left much to be desired IMO. So i think that it is posssible to write a better magic book than RoSv2 in 100 pages. Essentually if FFG removed the padding, Rune Magic and adventure from Rosv2 there would only be 100 pages left if that. However, it appears that like RoSv2 the Magic book will be very Imperial Human centric, so even if FFG make a good job of the material provided it may feel like a lot is missing.

4) Religion Book: This book will detail the 9 major religions of the Empire. So I guess 10 pages per religion and a little info on general religion maybe something on Dwarf and Elven religion and Jay says there's something on heretics/religious troublemakers etc.. (maybe that will include some Cultists). 10 pages per religion is enough to give a good overview. However, I doubt it will be on the same level as the Tome of Salvation and it appears that there will be little or nothing on Chaos Gods (Lesser or Greater), Minor Deities, Law Gods or other racial Gods such as the Ogres Maw. 

I maybe completely wrong but these are my best guesses based on what has been released by FFG.

 

 

 

Likely, any owner of 1st and 2nd edition will get a lot of duplicate background info in this new edition. I don't see anyway to present a new core book and basic setting without going over already published info.

However, Jay did say in the videos that the base rules would include some new info. I know I didn't have a lot of info on high elves in my books for example. And hopefully, the Empire will get some new details for a new campaign start.

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Kravel said:


Likely, any owner of 1st and 2nd edition will get a lot of duplicate background info in this new edition. I don't see anyway to present a new core book and basic setting without going over already published info.

However, Jay did say in the videos that the base rules would include some new info. I know I didn't have a lot of info on high elves in my books for example. And hopefully, the Empire will get some new details for a new campaign start.

 

An entire book on a single region of the empire... without duplicating info from previous editions.

I expect that they detail to the last hamlet.

 

Inside this marvelous box, we will find a map of the empire (or Reikland) that isn't printed in a book?

 

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Foolishboy said:

 

 

 

Inflation doesn't track on all products exactly. As I write this post $30-40 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook. $100 for a Core Set is almost unheard of for a single product.

Your price example is a little out of date - $50 - $60 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook these days, so I'd say his calculations are spot on. Of course these days the book will probably be hardback with higher quality paper and full colour artwork.

I'd say you're paying $40 for the dice, cards and counters.

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Armrek said:

Only trouble is that the price might be higher in Europe where I live. I was wondering if FFG had a production site in Europe. I know that I gladly would participate in games design and production if it was placed in the central Denmark in Scandinavie where I live. If there was a production site in Europe the price would surely be nice!

My backgound is from a group that started playing WFRP 1st ed and all sort of GW back in the early 90's and we did at some stage make a proposal for WFRP 2nd ed back in 1992 and sent it of to GW but it was sadly rejected.

I can't speak for the tax situation apart from the UK but because it is in a box in the UK it will have VAT added to it. Books are VAT exempt so the price in the UK could be heading towards £65-70. That prices me out of it

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this price per page comparison is totally bogus. More important is the stuff inside a book and not the cost. Roleplaying is among the most cheap hobbies in western society, even at a price point of 100$ per book. so if one dont want to afford the box because of the price and not because of the content, then he is either greedy scrooge or an underpayed rat catcher who cannot afford the food for his vicious dog. And even if he is a teenager, he can ask his parents for the book as a birthday present. No excuses. 100$ is nothing compared to the fact that he can play the game once per week from now on untill he die for thousands of joyful hours.

The only question is rather if the content justifies the purchase. Is it fun or with its limited content (eg. supports only reiklanders etc.) just a boring card game joke? I am open to it. I will not buy it on release but I will visit my FLGS after they got it and browse through the rules. Then  I will know if its worth any investment of my valuable time and energy.

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macd21 said:

Foolishboy said:

 

 

 

 

 

Inflation doesn't track on all products exactly. As I write this post $30-40 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook. $100 for a Core Set is almost unheard of for a single product.

 

 

 

Your price example is a little out of date - $50 - $60 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook these days, so I'd say his calculations are spot on. Of course these days the book will probably be hardback with higher quality paper and full colour artwork.

I'd say you're paying $40 for the dice, cards and counters.

macd21 said:

 

 

 

Your price example is a little out of date - $50 - $60 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook these days

 

Mmmm... Pathfinder is about 32$-39$ on amazon.com. 

We talk of about 579 pages. AND this is a game writed with the COMMUNITY imput aplauso.gif

 

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DeathFromAbove said:

macd21 said:

 

Foolishboy said:

 

 

 

 

 

Inflation doesn't track on all products exactly. As I write this post $30-40 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook. $100 for a Core Set is almost unheard of for a single product.

 

 

 

Your price example is a little out of date - $50 - $60 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook these days, so I'd say his calculations are spot on. Of course these days the book will probably be hardback with higher quality paper and full colour artwork.

I'd say you're paying $40 for the dice, cards and counters.

 

 

macd21 said:

 

 

 

 

Your price example is a little out of date - $50 - $60 is a fairly standard price for an RPG Core Rulebook these days

 

 

 

Mmmm... Pathfinder is about 32$-39$ on amazon.com. 

We talk of about 579 pages. AND this is a game writed with the COMMUNITY imput aplauso.gif

 

One which doesn't interest me in the slightest. But I applaud their comprehensiveness. However, keep it in perspective: the rule set was already out there, it was being played by tens of thousands for several years, and therefore there wasn't nearly as much time spent in development of the system or content. 

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HedgeWizard said:

 

 

One which doesn't interest me in the slightest. But I applaud their comprehensiveness. However, keep it in perspective: the rule set was already out there, it was being played by tens of thousands for several years, and therefore there wasn't nearly as much time spent in development of the system or content. 

 

WFRP is played well before D&D 3.5.

Even WFRP had a well established system, before.

 

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DeathFromAbove said:

HedgeWizard said:

One which doesn't interest me in the slightest. But I applaud their comprehensiveness. However, keep it in perspective: the rule set was already out there, it was being played by tens of thousands for several years, and therefore there wasn't nearly as much time spent in development of the system or content. 

WFRP is played well before D&D 3.5.

Even WFRP had a well established system, before.

Yes - the point being that the new Pathfinder is essentially 3.5.x and doesn't dramatically alter the system; it's merely an extension, clarifications and fluff.  I used to play 3.0/3.5 an I personally have little interest in picking up Pathfinder. I do agree it is masterfully done, but WFRP 3.0 is a complete re-write of the mechanics, which necessitates a lot more development time, which comes at a higher cost.  Just sayin' is all... 

 

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HedgeWizard said:

 

 

Yes - the point being that the new Pathfinder is essentially 3.5.x and doesn't dramatically alter the system; it's merely an extension, clarifications and fluff.  I used to play 3.0/3.5 an I personally have little interest in picking up Pathfinder. I do agree it is masterfully done, but WFRP 3.0 is a complete re-write of the mechanics, which necessitates a lot more development time, which comes at a higher cost.  Just sayin' is all... 

 

The point is that this experiment is with our $.

You can find on amazon many rulebooks with very affordable prices, not in pre-order.

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while I am quite sceptical after seeing the previews, I firstly think its a good thing that the setting will be fleshed out a little bit more (even if its only the reikland ATM) and secondly we will get new adventures and graphical impressions about the world. So even if you dont play the 3rd rules - because they are too "boardgamey" - you can take the parts of setting info, modules and graphics to include it in your 2nd ed. campaign.

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DeathFromAbove said:

Mmmm... Pathfinder is about 32$-39$ on amazon.com. 

We talk of about 579 pages. AND this is a game writed with the COMMUNITY imput aplauso.gif

That price is due to Amazon giving great discounts. The actual price is $49.99.

CthulhuTech (288 pages): 49.99

Dark Heresy (395 pages): 59.95

Rogue Trader (400): 59.95

Eclipse Phase (400): 49.99

$40 will get you something along the lines of the Earthdawn Gamemaster's Guide (304 pages, hardcover, black and white art) or the DnD Player's Handbook (35.95, 320 pages, full colour hardcover). However those books are not complete games - for each you'll have to buy at least one other book (and realistically more).

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macd21,

 

if you will check under "X new from xx$", you will notice that other resellers (other than amazon) sell the some very book.

Starting with a lower price to higher. I hope that everyone will buy from the lowest one.

 

But you are free of purchasing were you pay more. gran_risa.gif

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DeathFromAbove said:

macd21,

 

if you will check under "X new from xx$", you will notice that other resellers (other than amazon) sell the some very book.

Starting with a lower price to higher. I hope that everyone will buy from the lowest one.

 

But you are free of purchasing were you pay more. gran_risa.gif

And they may also (probably will) sell WFRP 3ed at a discount. However we don't know how much yet, so we may as well compare prices based on the official prices released by the publishers. In addition, the official prices tend to be closer to what you'll see in the FLGS. The one's online don't include P&P, which can increase the cost significantly.

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macd21 said:

DeathFromAbove said:

 

macd21,

 

if you will check under "X new from xx$", you will notice that other resellers (other than amazon) sell the some very book.

Starting with a lower price to higher. I hope that everyone will buy from the lowest one.

 

But you are free of purchasing were you pay more. gran_risa.gif

 

 

And they may also (probably will) sell WFRP 3ed at a discount. However we don't know how much yet, so we may as well compare prices based on the official prices released by the publishers. In addition, the official prices tend to be closer to what you'll see in the FLGS. The one's online don't include P&P, which can increase the cost significantly.

 

Macd, 100$ is an high price for a starting "limited" set.

Every main rulebook is much lower.

Strablazer adventure, more than 600 pages and still 33$ + 3$ shipping.

It's a new game systems and a FULL BLOWN RPG.

 

But you say no... ehehe.

 

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DeathFromAbove said:

Macd, 100$ is an high price for a starting "limited" set.

Every main rulebook is much lower.

Strablazer adventure, more than 600 pages and still 33$ + 3$ shipping.

It's a new game systems and a FULL BLOWN RPG.

 

But you say no... ehehe.

 

I didn't say $100 wasn't a lot of money for a coreset. I pointed out that the standard price these days is a lot more than the $30-40 quoted, that $50-60 is more accurate for a single book (sets that require more than one book usually come to $70-80 or more). And, again, standard price for Starblazer Adventures is $49.95. There's little point quoting the discount prices for RPGs at the moment as we don't know what the discount prices for WFRP 3 will be.

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DeathFromAbove said:

Yes - the point being that the new Pathfinder is essentially 3.5.x and doesn't dramatically alter the system; it's merely an extension, clarifications and fluff.  I used to play 3.0/3.5 an I personally have little interest in picking up Pathfinder. I do agree it is masterfully done, but WFRP 3.0 is a complete re-write of the mechanics, which necessitates a lot more development time, which comes at a higher cost.  Just sayin' is all... 

 

 

 

The point is that this experiment is with our $.

You can find on amazon many rulebooks with very affordable prices, not in pre-order.

Yes - every developer who creates something new (whether using an existing license or otherwise) takes a gamble on their pricing. Do they try to cover the cost of development + components at what they think is a reasonable price for said content and thereby close off a segment of the population because of over pricing, OR do they undercut costs and sell low hoping it's a gateway to more purchases (like razors and razor blades)?

If you find that 3.0 is not a value to you, DON'T BUY IT. You'll be sending your message clear enough. If sufficient people refuse to buy-in to the new system, FFG will have to rethink their strategy, GW might pull the license back, etc. etc. 

And just like any other product, there will be retailers selling for less. I have a pre-order in with a retailer who is selling the core set for under $75.  I personally think that is a great price for the new system. You may disagree. That's cool. 

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