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felforlife

Motti dying by RAW is extremely counter intuitive...

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So for a while my play group and I have been wondering when Motti's ability is applied, as it doesn't specify.  I dug through the Rules Reference, and under "Effects Use and Timing" pg. 5, last bullet point:

 

"When a card is discarded or flipped facedown, its effect is no longer active in the game."

 

Under "Commanders" pg. 3,

 

"A commander is a special type of upgrade card with the icon on its card back and no upgrade icon in the lower-left corner of the card front."

 

Under "Destroyed Ships and Squadrons" pg. 5,

 

"Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.  All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships are inactive."
 
 
 
It's still kind of hazy, but as far as I can tell as soon as Motti dies your hull values on your ships return to their original values, meaning a Gladiator with 5 damage or a VSD with 8 or 9 instantly dies when Motti does.  This seems extremely counter intuitive, since common sense says that just because a dude on another ship dies, doesn't mean another ship magically explodes. 
 
Am I reading this correctly?

EDIT: It appears that this has already been discussed in the rules forums, my bad.
Edited by felforlife

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a lot of things in this game don't make complete intuitive sense

 

how does miss "many bothans died..." lady give us better evades, for example?

 

 

the commanders abilities all have an abstract justification at best, so imo it's better not to think overmuch about them.

 

With Motti, if I had to invent a reason, it's because he somehow knows how to keep people in line under stressful situations (excessive discipline? fear?) or how to operate redundant failsafes or any number of tiny nuances that keep bigger ships alive for just that little big longer. When he's dead, well...

 

maybe his henchmen all just panic and **** things over bad when he dies, resulting in their ships losing their very tenuous grasp on structural integrity and then going boom. After all, Motti was a man of little faith ;)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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a lot of things in this game don't make complete intuitive sense

 

how does miss "many bothans died..." lady give us better evades, for example?

 

 

the commanders abilities all have an abstract justification at best, so imo it's better not to think overmuch about them.

 

With Motti, if I had to invent a reason, it's because he somehow knows how to keep people in line under stressful situations (excessive discipline? fear?) or how to operate redundant failsafes or any number of tiny nuances that keep bigger ships alive for just that little big longer. When he's dead, well...

 

maybe his henchmen all just panic and **** things over bad when he dies, resulting in their ships losing their very tenuous grasp on structural integrity and then going boom. After all, Motti was a man of little faith ;)

I think you're confusing a question about game rules with "fluff". He's not asking why he increases hull value, but what happens to his ability once his ship goes down.

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I was addressing the "magically explodes" part

 

faqs will faq, but the RAW part seems to be interpreted just fine.

 

Motti could have been written as "at the beginning of the game, increase the hull value of each friendly ship according to its size class..." to indicate that his ability was a permanent thing activated by just bringing him along

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Thematically, I can see it as Motti getting the most out of the officers, and therefore the crews, of the ships under his command. Something Imperial military members know is in their best interest. And thematically, once he's no longer in direct command, things fall apart quickly. Crews dying fighting fires and other damage control operations, begin to abandon ship with the loss of their commander.

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I liked to believe it was the sheer power of Motti's Ego that kept those other ships powerful. Once he's gone, his personality is not there to prop them up, and as if in disbelief of his death the ships spontaneously explode.

 

Though if you want to be thematic you can presume that as space fleet general Motti commands better and more elite flagships. The loss of the flagship though, is so devastating that the ships break down and lose control.

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Basicly he motivates people to fight even when the ships condition is critical and other commander would order an evacuation, thats how i explain it to myself.

If the effect stayes on after his death than you can just assume that his ships have reinforced hulls.

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He was the one who was so arrogant about the Death Star's invincibility in front of Vader in A New Hope, and in at least one book he was the one who convinced Tarkin not to evacuate.  So his crews fight to the last when others would abandon ship, but once he goes down the aura of invincibility is gone and everyone else panics.

 

Damage cards equal to or exceeding Hull value is "destroyed" in game terms, but not all naval engagements end in fireballs and spreading debris.  A "destroyed" ship could be crippled, abandoned, ionized into impotence, fled, surrendered, have it's crew killed, or be otherwise disabled but still be partially intact and repairable after the battle; while another ship could sustain devastating and irreparable damage but have it's crew still fight on even as it comes apart.  Motti's command makes it harder to "destroy" ships, so they'd keep fighting in a whole myriad of circumstances where normally they'd be unable and/or unwilling to.

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As a TO I would rule that Motti has an instant and persistent effect even after his ship is destroyed.

Based on what rules would you make such an interpretation?

I wouldnt enjoy playing in a tournament with what effectively amounts to house rules.

Me either, but my guess is that he would make a house rule that would probably force you to like playing in a tournament guided by house rules. ;)

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As a TO I would rule that Motti has an instant and persistent effect even after his ship is destroyed.

Based on what rules would you make such an interpretation?

I wouldnt enjoy playing in a tournament with what effectively amounts to house rules.

Me either, but my guess is that he would make a house rule that would probably force you to like playing in a tournament guided by house rules. ;)

 

 

 

Now, now... Nobody here is a Gungan. Let's appreciate that and take a breath.

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He was the one who was so arrogant about the Death Star's invincibility in front of Vader in A New Hope, and in at least one book he was the one who convinced Tarkin not to evacuate.  So his crews fight to the last when others would abandon ship, but once he goes down the aura of invincibility is gone and everyone else panics.

Yes, a mostly unknown fact: Biggs crash into the Death Star had it already wrecked, safe for Motti. Lukes Torpedo was aimed at him and as Motti died, so did the Death Star.

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He was the one who was so arrogant about the Death Star's invincibility in front of Vader in A New Hope, and in at least one book he was the one who convinced Tarkin not to evacuate.  So his crews fight to the last when others would abandon ship, but once he goes down the aura of invincibility is gone and everyone else panics.

Yes, a mostly unknown fact: Biggs crash into the Death Star had it already wrecked, safe for Motti. Lukes Torpedo was aimed at him and as Motti died, so did the Death Star.

 

 

No, no, no it was all Porkins.

 

Porkins got hit with Death Star debris, got shot down, and his wreckage hit a little known second thermal exhaust port causing a critical failure in the Death Star's main reactor. It just took a while to explode because it took time for the reactor to overheat.

 

Everybody knows that.

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I can't see how it could be intended to function in any other way than the way it does under the current body of rules. The risk of losing a flagship is that you are losing the effect of your Admiral. Mon Mothma's Evade-altering effects do not persist on your ships when she has been killed, and I don't believe anyone would suggest they should. 

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He could definitely use errata to make it clear, but I'm pretty sure the intent is for it to be permanent.

You have no basis for that belief as nothing in the rules hints at such bonuses ever being permanent. All the rules say is that upgrade cards on out of play ships are inactive.

More over the damage rules allow for the possibility of this type of destruction.

You want the rules to work differently, you hope they will be errata'd to work differently, but you don't have any basis to assert designer intent on the subject.

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He could definitely use errata to make it clear, but I'm pretty sure the intent is for it to be permanent.

You have no basis for that belief as nothing in the rules hints at such bonuses ever being permanent. All the rules say is that upgrade cards on out of play ships are inactive.

More over the damage rules allow for the possibility of this type of destruction.

You want the rules to work differently, you hope they will be errata'd to work differently, but you don't have any basis to assert designer intent on the subject.

 

 

So I get hit with the upgrade that turns my defensive tokens over. If I kill the ship with that upgrade do I turn my tokens back over? I can see both sides of the discussion, is this an effect that like a damage effect triggers, updates my hull with a new value then never works again or it a continuous effect that is only active when the character is around?

 

Narratively could he not have heavier ships, reinforced bulkheads and such? Just as much as he inspires his repair crews to work harder.

 

For me there isn't as much certainty and the question seems reasonable to ask.

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The counter to "Do Tarkin's counters go away etc" is that Tarkin's effect is not the token itself, but the action of giving the token. YEs, when Tarkin dies, his ability to grant tokens dies with him.

 

If you look at Enhanced Armaments. It gives you an extra red dice on side batteries, but if the upgrade were to be removed or discarded, would you keep the red dice it provided? Obviously No. Same with Expanded Launchers. Is Motti any different to these numerical buffs?

Edited by DWRR

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