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Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun

Disney considering a Marvel and Star Wars TV channel

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I'm mostly pro-Empire for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with 9/11, terrorism, or anything of the sort. 

It's a complex set of reasons, but it's probably because of the guilty pleasure I got out of playing for the Empire in TIE Fighter as a kid, followed by seeing how prudeish the Jedi are in the prequels and in Knights of the Old Republic. That's not to say that I generally go full-Sith... but I usually end up as a Grey Jedi (and just as no two libertarians can get along, I didn't get along real well with Jolee Bindo, either). 

Is the Empire tyrannical? Absolutely. Is it evil? Well, parts of it clearly are. Palpatine and Tarkin (although we never actually see Palpatine do anything evil until the prequels - although I highly doubt that Tarkin could have just destroyed Alderaan without Palpatine's say-so, rendering Palpatine every bit as culpable as Tarkin in the destruction of that planet) sure are. Vader killed dozens of children in the Jedi Purge (although I wouldn't be surprised if the recording was forged to fool the Jedi into believing such, thereby dissuading them from attempting a rescue, and the Jedi younglings were actually taken away to camps to be corrupted into serving the Dark Side of the Force - and Sidious/Palpatine in particular - and that the inquisitors from Rebels are the younglings Vader is supposed to have killed. If you're Palpatine, what's the bigger threat to your New Order? A couple of older Jedi robbed of a generation of Force sensitive younglings who will probably be dead in a couple decades - or a couple of older Jedi training dozens of younglings to use the Force to haunt your New Order for decades or even centuries to come?).

But is Moff Jerjerrod evil? Is Admiral Piett? Baron Fel? Vader's wingmen? TK-421? In the EU/Legends, Dash Rendar and Han Solo are both former Imperial pilots. Crix Madine is a former Imperial SOF commander. Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and several other rebel leaders were Imperial Senators. Even Luke, who admits to hating the Empire to Obi-Wan, expresses a strong desire to join an Imperial academy and to fly fighters for them. How many guys like Han, Crix, and Dash never left Imperial service? How many guys like Luke wanted to join the Imperial navy but, unlike Luke, didn't get caught up in the rebellion on their way to school? Never mind the guys who got drafted, the guys who joined to be get through school, who joined to learn a trade or profession, who joined to feed themselves or their families, or who joined out of a desire to serve their country and community. Or any of the several hundred million reasons and combinations thereof that people join militaries. 
 

 

 And with Game of Thrones I'll remember Tywin Lannister long after I've forgotten about Joffrey (and possibly even Cersei). 

 

 

Huh? Do you mean the dwarf, Tyrion? I never saw Tywin as morally gray. He was cruel and fairly thoroughly evil. He unapologetic encouraged ruthless and sadistic behavior among his underlings. His only redeeming value is that he wasn't as much of a psychopath as his grandson. I can't recall anything about his character that was sympathetic in the least. Tywin Lanister is a pretty text book example of Lawful Evil. 

 

There's not a lot of moral ambiguity with someone that would arrange for the gang **** of the woman his son was in love with and force his son to watch it.

 

Nope. I mean Tywin. Tyrion is definitely a good guy, through and through. 

Tywin was cruel and merciless - but he was also fair and wise. Yes, he's a ****** towards his family and ruthless with his enemies. But it was his work as the Hand of the King that kept the nobles and commons of Westeros in line and mostly happy during the reigns of Aerys the Mad (Targaryen) and Joffrey (Baratheon). And he demonstrated the ability to bury the hatchet with his enemies when the time came, when those enemies could become allies. 

No other leader or leaders vying for the throne of the Seven Kingdoms has demonstrated the level of even-handedness as Tywin, except perhaps Robb Stark and Mance Rayder (and Kevan Lannister). Not Danaerys, not Renly, not Stannis. Definitely not Balon or Euron. 

I was still cheering when he died - but I had a hard time hating him. 

Especially knowing the sort of heartburn the fallout from his death - and Kevan's death - is going to bring to the Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Vigil

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As for the empire, I never read any EU stuff, but played a few games (battlefront, shadows of the empire) but I always thought of the rebels as terrorists. I guess part of it was being middle school aged when 9/11 happened, but they never really did anything to show that the rebels weren't just terrorists, and the Empire never did anything in the movies particulary heinous. I mean, they destroyed a sparsely populated planet hosting a serious terrorist cell\base/populatíon. The rebels killed at least millions if not billions of people on the death star...

 

That's why I'm pro-empire...

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it is amazing what that statement reveals about changes in the psyche of people in the U.S. Post 9/11. The original trilogy contained a significant level of referencing the U.S.A's creation mythology* along with all the WW2 baggage. In the 1970s and 1980s it was nigh on unthinkable to side with the Empire.

*Plucky band of rebels throw off the oppressive yoke of an oppressive empire and all that. You even have bad guys played by British actors to ram the point home.

 

As I get older, I can start to see the side of the movie, but it screams War on Terror to someone who's psyche was formed around the Post-911 world. I was just young enough to know what changes occurred after 9/11, but old enough that it shaped the way I looked at things in a definite, recognizable and tangible way.

 

The only reason I saw to think the empire is evil is the title crawl, where it calls them evil.

 

 

 

I imagine the destruction of Alderaan, with billions of civilians on it, was more than enough to confirm that the guys that looked like bad guys were at least as evil as they looked. 

It was intended to make them look evil. 

 

But there is a million ways to look at it.

 

I grew up Catholic, with the whole: "Life is sacred. So we kill to protect it." philosophy, while most Americans come from a more protestant background with the whole: "Life is sacred. We'd die before we'd take it." angle. 

 

Add in the WW2 parallels (Death Star = Atom Bomb, but has the opposite reaction (Rebels band together instead of submit), and it makes the Empire look sympathetic, while the Rebels look misguided. Also, Alderaan is said to be sparsely populated and host to a serious terrorist population, which while it doesn't make it a lot better, does make it better than say destroying coruscant.

 

"...I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."

"NO! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons! You can't possibly..."

"You would prefer another target? A MILITARY target? Then, name the system.  I grow tired of asking this, so it will be the last time: Where is the rebel base?"

"Dantooine.  They're on Dantooine."

"There, you see, Lord Vader, she can be reasonable.  Continue with the operation, you may fire when ready."

 

"WHAT?!"

"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is far to remote to make an effective demonstration, but don't worry, we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."

 

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

"FEAR will keep the local systems in line.  Fear of this battle station."

This is a government whose head of state has just dissolved the representative council of its constituency and intends to control its population through an official "doctrine of terror" whereby it indiscriminately murders millions, if not billions, of its own citizens in order to A) test the effectiveness of its WMD, B) prove its willingness to use said WMD against its own citizens, and C) hold the lives of innocent citizens hostage as a form of interrogation against anyone accused (but not tried or convicted) of treason.

So, you're saying that you were convinced that this government is the goodguys?

I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in a western nation post 9/11 could see the Empire as anything but villains after they attacked a civilian target in an attempt to punish a military organization and effect political change through terror.

 

 

 

I believe the poster who claims the Empire is good has somehow had the ideas that any group which uses guerrilla warfare must be a terrorist force and that any non-government group which wages warfare against a government must be terrorists burned into their brain.

 

I disagree with that point of view completely but it isn't uncommon.

 

No. Thats not even close to what I believe. I have no problem with guerralla wärfare, no problems with rebelling in general.

There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics. 

 

I believe that the Empire is using force to keep the peace, and is using the threat of the death star to prevent more deaths. See ww2 and the atom bomb. Also, the empire was under the impression that alderaan was a military target. I highly doubt that Alderaan was a peaceful planet, especially when its Senator is the one who started the rebellion in the first place. Esentially, Leia was lying to try and save her people.

 

Even so, the Rebels killed just as many people if not more, by destroying a moon size station. The noncanon legends stats would be way off, because it's not even enough people to run new york, yet alone a building that large.

 

The empire does bad things to create a stable and effective gov't. The rebels create dischord and 

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because it's not even enough people to run new york, yet alone a building that large.

 

The Death Star is mostly power core, hence why the reactor exploding vapourises the entire station in one blast. While the habitable areas go pretty deep they by no means take up the entire volume of the station.

 

"As for destroying Alderaan, no, that's pretty evil. Exactly the sort of evil you'd expect from the rebel scum that hijacked the Emperor's new mining laser, and then hyperjumped it to their base in the Yavin system and killed its entire crew of millions in an attempt cover it up. What do you mean, we blew up Alderaan? Have you been watching those rebel propaganda films? It's nonsense, just like these silly rumours that Lord Vader kills his own officers. They just retired to spend more times with their families, that's all.

 

No, I can't give you Captain Needa's new address. No, I can't give you Admiral Ozzel's either."

 

There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

Negotiation was the Declaration of 2000. The declaration of rebellion was done by Mon Mothma soon after the Corellian Treaty that formed the ARR (Alliance to Restore the Republic). Peaceful protests? Those happened, until an incident on Ghorman where a certain Mr Tarkin landed a Lambda on one.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice."
-Jedi Master Nalthin Gyng

"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
-Darth Azarus

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The problem with those actions are they lose old fans trying to recreate characters, they lose fans with bad death stories, and in the 90's they killed the market with variant covers. Marvel went bankrupt after that. Now neither side has learned their lesson. Instead of seeing variant covers A-C, we are seeing(no joke) A-X.

 

How is having different covers somehow a bad thing?

 

 

With comic book collecting, all those covers is like the US Government printing too much money. Too many comics printed of one cover/too many different variant covers = an oversatuation of product that is less valuable. Usually there is a ratio for how many variant covers are printed versus the main cover such as - 25:1 or 50:1. Those type variants used to be worth more when say a #1 issue had only 1 to 3 variants. Take for example the 3D covers DC did. Their first print run was limited, so they are worth more. They did a second run of new 3D covers, but they waited for comic book stores to place orders before printing. That ment that more 3D covers were printed, so the second run was not worth as much.

 

In the variant world for comics, if there is a variant, it is labeled 1A. But Marvel being bought by Disney has ramped up variant covers and revamping/killing characters. Normally a new comic book would have 1-3 variants, which would be labeled 1A, 1B, 1C. For the Uncanny Avengers title, they have variants 1A through 1T. wtf

 

I'm fairly sure their target audience is the people who read the things/buy from them, so doing limited runs to fuel the secondary market they don't have a slice of really doesn't factor into their decision making.

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There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

The negotiation and peaceful protests occurred mo than a decade before A New Hop, and resulted in the dismantling of what was left of the elected government and the slaughter of the peaceful protestors.

A Declaration of Independence doesn't really work because no one was trying to break away for the empire, they were trying to overthrow the tyrant and restore their government. Even so, the treaty that merged the original rebel cells into "The Rebel Alliance" served much the same purpose, it outlined the reasons for the rebellion and the goals of the alliance members.

There was an assassination attempt, and it worked. Of the various reasons to risk attacking the Death Star 2, that the emperor was going to be there was "the most important of all", that was the first real opportunity the alliance had to target the emperor, and they took it.

A New Hope is very late in the cycle of rebellion. The actions of the emperor as he took and consolidated power are pretty much text book examples of a tyrant subverting a nation and seizing power and then illegally quashing any voice of opposition.

The destruction of Alderan is not equivalent to the use of the a-bomb in WW2, it would be more similar to the president nuking Baltimore because of the recent riots. No one would consider that justified.

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As for the empire, I never read any EU stuff, but played a few games (battlefront, shadows of the empire) but I always thought of the rebels as terrorists. I guess part of it was being middle school aged when 9/11 happened, but they never really did anything to show that the rebels weren't just terrorists, and the Empire never did anything in the movies particulary heinous. I mean, they destroyed a sparsely populated planet hosting a serious terrorist cell\base/populatíon. The rebels killed at least millions if not billions of people on the death star...

 

That's why I'm pro-empire...

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it is amazing what that statement reveals about changes in the psyche of people in the U.S. Post 9/11. The original trilogy contained a significant level of referencing the U.S.A's creation mythology* along with all the WW2 baggage. In the 1970s and 1980s it was nigh on unthinkable to side with the Empire.

*Plucky band of rebels throw off the oppressive yoke of an oppressive empire and all that. You even have bad guys played by British actors to ram the point home.

 

As I get older, I can start to see the side of the movie, but it screams War on Terror to someone who's psyche was formed around the Post-911 world. I was just young enough to know what changes occurred after 9/11, but old enough that it shaped the way I looked at things in a definite, recognizable and tangible way.

 

The only reason I saw to think the empire is evil is the title crawl, where it calls them evil.

 

 

 

I imagine the destruction of Alderaan, with billions of civilians on it, was more than enough to confirm that the guys that looked like bad guys were at least as evil as they looked. 

It was intended to make them look evil. 

 

But there is a million ways to look at it.

 

I grew up Catholic, with the whole: "Life is sacred. So we kill to protect it." philosophy, while most Americans come from a more protestant background with the whole: "Life is sacred. We'd die before we'd take it." angle. 

 

Add in the WW2 parallels (Death Star = Atom Bomb, but has the opposite reaction (Rebels band together instead of submit), and it makes the Empire look sympathetic, while the Rebels look misguided. Also, Alderaan is said to be sparsely populated and host to a serious terrorist population, which while it doesn't make it a lot better, does make it better than say destroying coruscant.

 

"...I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."

"NO! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons! You can't possibly..."

"You would prefer another target? A MILITARY target? Then, name the system.  I grow tired of asking this, so it will be the last time: Where is the rebel base?"

"Dantooine.  They're on Dantooine."

"There, you see, Lord Vader, she can be reasonable.  Continue with the operation, you may fire when ready."

 

"WHAT?!"

"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is far to remote to make an effective demonstration, but don't worry, we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."

 

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

"FEAR will keep the local systems in line.  Fear of this battle station."

This is a government whose head of state has just dissolved the representative council of its constituency and intends to control its population through an official "doctrine of terror" whereby it indiscriminately murders millions, if not billions, of its own citizens in order to A) test the effectiveness of its WMD, B) prove its willingness to use said WMD against its own citizens, and C) hold the lives of innocent citizens hostage as a form of interrogation against anyone accused (but not tried or convicted) of treason.

So, you're saying that you were convinced that this government is the goodguys?

I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in a western nation post 9/11 could see the Empire as anything but villains after they attacked a civilian target in an attempt to punish a military organization and effect political change through terror.

 

 

 

I believe the poster who claims the Empire is good has somehow had the ideas that any group which uses guerrilla warfare must be a terrorist force and that any non-government group which wages warfare against a government must be terrorists burned into their brain.

 

I disagree with that point of view completely but it isn't uncommon.

 

No. Thats not even close to what I believe. I have no problem with guerralla wärfare, no problems with rebelling in general.

There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics. 

 

I believe that the Empire is using force to keep the peace, and is using the threat of the death star to prevent more deaths. See ww2 and the atom bomb. Also, the empire was under the impression that alderaan was a military target. I highly doubt that Alderaan was a peaceful planet, especially when its Senator is the one who started the rebellion in the first place. Esentially, Leia was lying to try and save her people.

 

Even so, the Rebels killed just as many people if not more, by destroying a moon size station. The noncanon legends stats would be way off, because it's not even enough people to run new yorkn b, yet alone a building that large.

 

The empire does bad things to create a stable and effective gov't. The rebels create dischord and 

 

 

 

Tarkin himself doesn't believe Alderaan was a military target.

 

Him saying "You would prefer another target, a military target..."  when Leia protests Alderaan being targeted proves that he didn't consider it a military target.

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The problem with those actions are they lose old fans trying to recreate characters, they lose fans with bad death stories, and in the 90's they killed the market with variant covers. Marvel went bankrupt after that. Now neither side has learned their lesson. Instead of seeing variant covers A-C, we are seeing(no joke) A-X.

 

How is having different covers somehow a bad thing?

 

 

With comic book collecting, all those covers is like the US Government printing too much money. Too many comics printed of one cover/too many different variant covers = an oversatuation of product that is less valuable. Usually there is a ratio for how many variant covers are printed versus the main cover such as - 25:1 or 50:1. Those type variants used to be worth more when say a #1 issue had only 1 to 3 variants. Take for example the 3D covers DC did. Their first print run was limited, so they are worth more. They did a second run of new 3D covers, but they waited for comic book stores to place orders before printing. That ment that more 3D covers were printed, so the second run was not worth as much.

 

In the variant world for comics, if there is a variant, it is labeled 1A. But Marvel being bought by Disney has ramped up variant covers and revamping/killing characters. Normally a new comic book would have 1-3 variants, which would be labeled 1A, 1B, 1C. For the Uncanny Avengers title, they have variants 1A through 1T. wtf

 

I'm fairly sure their target audience is the people who read the things/buy from them, so doing limited runs to fuel the secondary market they don't have a slice of really doesn't factor into their decision making.

 

 

I forgot, they also increased comic book prices so they could flood the stores with their comics. "We can't make money if we don't print a billion."

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks

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lol this thread went down-hill

 

 

Whoever is saying Alderaan was a sparsely populated military target is hilarious.

 

 

But seriously would you rather live in a world where you don't have the Bill of Rights and a stable government rules through fear, or would you rather live in a world where you are free, even if there is chaos?

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Comparing the destruction of Alderaan to the nuking of Japan is also flawed. Leia had already given him information (apparently false, but he seemed to believe her) and he still blew up a planet that he clearly didn't consider a threat, as RogueCorona mentioned. Japan had no intention of surrendering and had repeatedly shown a willingness to launch suicidal assaults that ended only when they were all dead. Allied generals predicted the death toll of a land invasion to be higher than the entire Western Front in the war against Germany. The bombs were brutal, but they demonstrated that the US could utterly destroy Japan without giving them a "warrior's death" or letting them do anything but sit there and wait to die. 

 

What Tarkin did would be more like if Japan had accepted their defeat, and the US had nuked Hiroshima anyway just to show off their new toy. 

 

Vigil, you make a decent argument but there are always going to be some decent guys in any group as large as the Imperial military. The fact that some of them are pretty good guys doesn't change that the ones running the show are remorseless mass murderers. There were some good people in the Wehrmacht, and even the SS eventually let a few decent human beings in (by accident, most likely) but that doesn't mean that Nazi Germany was any less evil as a whole. 

 

I get you when it comes to playing as the Empire, though. I used to play Galactic Battlegrounds a lot and I was the Empire like 90% of the time. 

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There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

The negotiation and peaceful protests occurred mo than a decade before A New Hop, and resulted in the dismantling of what was left of the elected government and the slaughter of the peaceful protestors.

A Declaration of Independence doesn't really work because no one was trying to break away for the empire, they were trying to overthrow the tyrant and restore their government. Even so, the treaty that merged the original rebel cells into "The Rebel Alliance" served much the same purpose, it outlined the reasons for the rebellion and the goals of the alliance members.

There was an assassination attempt, and it worked. Of the various reasons to risk attacking the Death Star 2, that the emperor was going to be there was "the most important of all", that was the first real opportunity the alliance had to target the emperor, and they took it.

A New Hope is very late in the cycle of rebellion. The actions of the emperor as he took and consolidated power are pretty much text book examples of a tyrant subverting a nation and seizing power and then illegally quashing any voice of opposition.

The destruction of Alderan is not equivalent to the use of the a-bomb in WW2, it would be more similar to the president nuking Baltimore because of the recent riots. No one would consider that justified.

 

 

You mean the things that weren't even mentioned in the movies?

 

Also, that doesn't qualify as an assasination. Killing millions to kill one man isn't an assasination.

Edited by Vanderbeam

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Comparing the destruction of Alderaan to the nuking of Japan is also flawed. Leia had already given him information (apparently false, but he seemed to believe her) and he still blew up a planet that he clearly didn't consider a threat, as RogueCorona mentioned. Japan had no intention of surrendering and had repeatedly shown a willingness to launch suicidal assaults that ended only when they were all dead. Allied generals predicted the death toll of a land invasion to be higher than the entire Western Front in the war against Germany. The bombs were brutal, but they demonstrated that the US could utterly destroy Japan without giving them a "warrior's death" or letting them do anything but sit there and wait to die. 

 

What Tarkin did would be more like if Japan had accepted their defeat, and the US had nuked Hiroshima anyway just to show off their new toy. 

 

Vigil, you make a decent argument but there are always going to be some decent guys in any group as large as the Imperial military. The fact that some of them are pretty good guys doesn't change that the ones running the show are remorseless mass murderers. There were some good people in the Wehrmacht, and even the SS eventually let a few decent human beings in (by accident, most likely) but that doesn't mean that Nazi Germany was any less evil as a whole. 

 

I get you when it comes to playing as the Empire, though. I used to play Galactic Battlegrounds a lot and I was the Empire like 90% of the time.

Yup, tons of good people in the Empire/Nazi Germany, that doesn't make the organization less evil.

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There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

The negotiation and peaceful protests occurred mo than a decade before A New Hop, and resulted in the dismantling of what was left of the elected government and the slaughter of the peaceful protestors.

A Declaration of Independence doesn't really work because no one was trying to break away for the empire, they were trying to overthrow the tyrant and restore their government. Even so, the treaty that merged the original rebel cells into "The Rebel Alliance" served much the same purpose, it outlined the reasons for the rebellion and the goals of the alliance members.

There was an assassination attempt, and it worked. Of the various reasons to risk attacking the Death Star 2, that the emperor was going to be there was "the most important of all", that was the first real opportunity the alliance had to target the emperor, and they took it.

A New Hope is very late in the cycle of rebellion. The actions of the emperor as he took and consolidated power are pretty much text book examples of a tyrant subverting a nation and seizing power and then illegally quashing any voice of opposition.

The destruction of Alderan is not equivalent to the use of the a-bomb in WW2, it would be more similar to the president nuking Baltimore because of the recent riots. No one would consider that justified.

 

 

You mean the things that weren't even mentioned in the movies?

 

Also, that doesn't qualify as an assasination. Killing millions to kill one man isn't an assasination.

 

Killing billions to (maybe) kill a few thousand dissidents isn't exactly a measured response either. At least the crew of the Death Star were people who enlisted in the military and in doing so accepted that they might one day die for it. The same can't really be said of Alderaan.

 

That and Alderaan was never shown to have a significant Rebel population in the movie. It's Leia's homeworld, but the film doesn't really do anything to suggest that Alderaan's populace has the same attitude towards rebellion that Leia has. Tarkin doesn't even contest it when Leia says that Alderaan is a "peaceful planet" with no weapons. 

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There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

The negotiation and peaceful protests occurred mo than a decade before A New Hop, and resulted in the dismantling of what was left of the elected government and the slaughter of the peaceful protestors.

A Declaration of Independence doesn't really work because no one was trying to break away for the empire, they were trying to overthrow the tyrant and restore their government. Even so, the treaty that merged the original rebel cells into "The Rebel Alliance" served much the same purpose, it outlined the reasons for the rebellion and the goals of the alliance members.

There was an assassination attempt, and it worked. Of the various reasons to risk attacking the Death Star 2, that the emperor was going to be there was "the most important of all", that was the first real opportunity the alliance had to target the emperor, and they took it.

A New Hope is very late in the cycle of rebellion. The actions of the emperor as he took and consolidated power are pretty much text book examples of a tyrant subverting a nation and seizing power and then illegally quashing any voice of opposition.

The destruction of Alderan is not equivalent to the use of the a-bomb in WW2, it would be more similar to the president nuking Baltimore because of the recent riots. No one would consider that justified.

 

 

You mean the things that weren't even mentioned in the movies?

 

Also, that doesn't qualify as an assasination. Killing millions to kill one man isn't an assasination.

 

 

Funny how you forget that the Death Stars were themselves legitimate military targets. They were basically the biggest warships ever built in Star Wars.

 

And even the new canon includes some of the actions by the Empire which sparked the rebellion. Things like slavery based on species, attempted incidence and so on all done before the rebellion became a significant force.

Edited by RogueCorona

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I forgot, they also increased comic book prices so they could flood the stores with their comics. "We can't make money if we don't print a billion."

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks

 

They'll print a billion if they can sell a billion. That's basic economics.

 

 

They tried that in the 90's and failed hard. I don't know how DC survived. Now Marvel is switching to digital.

 

http://goodereader.com/blog/digital-comic-news/marvel-phasing-out-retail-comic-distribution-to-focus-on-digital

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As for the empire, I never read any EU stuff, but played a few games (battlefront, shadows of the empire) but I always thought of the rebels as terrorists. I guess part of it was being middle school aged when 9/11 happened, but they never really did anything to show that the rebels weren't just terrorists, and the Empire never did anything in the movies particulary heinous. I mean, they destroyed a sparsely populated planet hosting a serious terrorist cell\base/populatíon. The rebels killed at least millions if not billions of people on the death star...

 

That's why I'm pro-empire...

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it is amazing what that statement reveals about changes in the psyche of people in the U.S. Post 9/11. The original trilogy contained a significant level of referencing the U.S.A's creation mythology* along with all the WW2 baggage. In the 1970s and 1980s it was nigh on unthinkable to side with the Empire.

*Plucky band of rebels throw off the oppressive yoke of an oppressive empire and all that. You even have bad guys played by British actors to ram the point home.

 

As I get older, I can start to see the side of the movie, but it screams War on Terror to someone who's psyche was formed around the Post-911 world. I was just young enough to know what changes occurred after 9/11, but old enough that it shaped the way I looked at things in a definite, recognizable and tangible way.

 

The only reason I saw to think the empire is evil is the title crawl, where it calls them evil.

 

 

 

I imagine the destruction of Alderaan, with billions of civilians on it, was more than enough to confirm that the guys that looked like bad guys were at least as evil as they looked. 

It was intended to make them look evil. 

 

But there is a million ways to look at it.

 

I grew up Catholic, with the whole: "Life is sacred. So we kill to protect it." philosophy, while most Americans come from a more protestant background with the whole: "Life is sacred. We'd die before we'd take it." angle. 

 

Add in the WW2 parallels (Death Star = Atom Bomb, but has the opposite reaction (Rebels band together instead of submit), and it makes the Empire look sympathetic, while the Rebels look misguided. Also, Alderaan is said to be sparsely populated and host to a serious terrorist population, which while it doesn't make it a lot better, does make it better than say destroying coruscant.

 

"...I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."

"NO! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons! You can't possibly..."

"You would prefer another target? A MILITARY target? Then, name the system.  I grow tired of asking this, so it will be the last time: Where is the rebel base?"

"Dantooine.  They're on Dantooine."

"There, you see, Lord Vader, she can be reasonable.  Continue with the operation, you may fire when ready."

 

"WHAT?!"

"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is far to remote to make an effective demonstration, but don't worry, we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."

 

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

"FEAR will keep the local systems in line.  Fear of this battle station."

This is a government whose head of state has just dissolved the representative council of its constituency and intends to control its population through an official "doctrine of terror" whereby it indiscriminately murders millions, if not billions, of its own citizens in order to A) test the effectiveness of its WMD, B) prove its willingness to use said WMD against its own citizens, and C) hold the lives of innocent citizens hostage as a form of interrogation against anyone accused (but not tried or convicted) of treason.

So, you're saying that you were convinced that this government is the goodguys?

I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in a western nation post 9/11 could see the Empire as anything but villains after they attacked a civilian target in an attempt to punish a military organization and effect political change through terror.

 

 

do you understand the principles of warfare and "will"?

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There was no negotiation, no declaration of independence, no attempted assasination of the emperor, no peaceful protests, just straight up let's-kill-them-all action movie heroics.

The negotiation and peaceful protests occurred mo than a decade before A New Hop, and resulted in the dismantling of what was left of the elected government and the slaughter of the peaceful protestors.

A Declaration of Independence doesn't really work because no one was trying to break away for the empire, they were trying to overthrow the tyrant and restore their government. Even so, the treaty that merged the original rebel cells into "The Rebel Alliance" served much the same purpose, it outlined the reasons for the rebellion and the goals of the alliance members.

There was an assassination attempt, and it worked. Of the various reasons to risk attacking the Death Star 2, that the emperor was going to be there was "the most important of all", that was the first real opportunity the alliance had to target the emperor, and they took it.

A New Hope is very late in the cycle of rebellion. The actions of the emperor as he took and consolidated power are pretty much text book examples of a tyrant subverting a nation and seizing power and then illegally quashing any voice of opposition.

The destruction of Alderan is not equivalent to the use of the a-bomb in WW2, it would be more similar to the president nuking Baltimore because of the recent riots. No one would consider that justified.

 

 

You mean the things that weren't even mentioned in the movies?

 

Also, that doesn't qualify as an assasination. Killing millions to kill one man isn't an assasination.

 

You need to rewatch Revenge of the Sith. Palpatine doesn't get to be Emperor for much more than a day before the Jedi attempt to assassinate him. Again. And four Jedi Masters died attempting to apprehend - or kill - him a day or two before. To say nothing of any of the other attempts (and there probably were a few) between Sith and Jedi

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I forgot, they also increased comic book prices so they could flood the stores with their comics. "We can't make money if we don't print a billion."

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks

 

They'll print a billion if they can sell a billion. That's basic economics.

 

 

They tried that in the 90's and failed hard. I don't know how DC survived. Now Marvel is switching to digital.

 

http://goodereader.com/blog/digital-comic-news/marvel-phasing-out-retail-comic-distribution-to-focus-on-digital

 

 

Then they couldn't sell a billion.

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I love how the whole Empire=Nazis crowd hasn't even touched on the US Military's... less than stellar reputation.

The Empire being analogous to the Nazis is not a matter of opinion. They were quite explicitly designed as such, even down to the aforementioned use of the term, "Stormtrooper," for the Empire's elite ground forces. While later material and cultural shifts have humanised some aspects of the Empire Lucas' intent in their creation has been clearly documented.

Also, and I speak as a non-US citizen, I find the comparison between the actions of the U.S. Military and those of the Nazi forces in the Second World War thoroughly offensive. The difference between imperfect and genocidal is immeasurable, not one of shades of grey.

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I love how the whole Empire=Nazis crowd hasn't even touched on the US Military's... less than stellar reputation.

The Empire being analogous to the Nazis is not a matter of opinion. They were quite explicitly designed as such, even down to the aforementioned use of the term, "Stormtrooper," for the Empire's elite ground forces. While later material and cultural shifts have humanised some aspects of the Empire Lucas' intent in their creation has been clearly documented.

Also, and I speak as a non-US citizen, I find the comparison between the actions of the U.S. Military and those of the Nazi forces in the Second World War thoroughly offensive. The difference between imperfect and genocidal is immeasurable, not one of shades of grey.

 

As a US Citizen, this country is becoming what Nazi Germany wanted to be, sans the genocide.

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Uh, a fascist dictatorship? You may want to qualify that statement, because right now, without any supporting arguments, you're coming off a little ridiculous.

 

I love how the whole Empire=Nazis crowd hasn't even touched on the US Military's... less than stellar reputation.

 

I served in the military for 6 years. I'd love for you to explain this tangent a little bit more.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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As for the empire, I never read any EU stuff, but played a few games (battlefront, shadows of the empire) but I always thought of the rebels as terrorists. I guess part of it was being middle school aged when 9/11 happened, but they never really did anything to show that the rebels weren't just terrorists, and the Empire never did anything in the movies particulary heinous. I mean, they destroyed a sparsely populated planet hosting a serious terrorist cell\base/populatíon. The rebels killed at least millions if not billions of people on the death star...

 

That's why I'm pro-empire...

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it is amazing what that statement reveals about changes in the psyche of people in the U.S. Post 9/11. The original trilogy contained a significant level of referencing the U.S.A's creation mythology* along with all the WW2 baggage. In the 1970s and 1980s it was nigh on unthinkable to side with the Empire.

*Plucky band of rebels throw off the oppressive yoke of an oppressive empire and all that. You even have bad guys played by British actors to ram the point home.

 

As I get older, I can start to see the side of the movie, but it screams War on Terror to someone who's psyche was formed around the Post-911 world. I was just young enough to know what changes occurred after 9/11, but old enough that it shaped the way I looked at things in a definite, recognizable and tangible way.

 

The only reason I saw to think the empire is evil is the title crawl, where it calls them evil.

 

 

 

I imagine the destruction of Alderaan, with billions of civilians on it, was more than enough to confirm that the guys that looked like bad guys were at least as evil as they looked. 

It was intended to make them look evil. 

 

But there is a million ways to look at it.

 

I grew up Catholic, with the whole: "Life is sacred. So we kill to protect it." philosophy, while most Americans come from a more protestant background with the whole: "Life is sacred. We'd die before we'd take it." angle. 

 

Add in the WW2 parallels (Death Star = Atom Bomb, but has the opposite reaction (Rebels band together instead of submit), and it makes the Empire look sympathetic, while the Rebels look misguided. Also, Alderaan is said to be sparsely populated and host to a serious terrorist population, which while it doesn't make it a lot better, does make it better than say destroying coruscant.

 

"...I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."

"NO! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons! You can't possibly..."

"You would prefer another target? A MILITARY target? Then, name the system.  I grow tired of asking this, so it will be the last time: Where is the rebel base?"

"Dantooine.  They're on Dantooine."

"There, you see, Lord Vader, she can be reasonable.  Continue with the operation, you may fire when ready."

 

"WHAT?!"

"You're far too trusting. Dantooine is far to remote to make an effective demonstration, but don't worry, we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough."

 

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

"FEAR will keep the local systems in line.  Fear of this battle station."

This is a government whose head of state has just dissolved the representative council of its constituency and intends to control its population through an official "doctrine of terror" whereby it indiscriminately murders millions, if not billions, of its own citizens in order to A) test the effectiveness of its WMD, B) prove its willingness to use said WMD against its own citizens, and C) hold the lives of innocent citizens hostage as a form of interrogation against anyone accused (but not tried or convicted) of treason.

So, you're saying that you were convinced that this government is the goodguys?

I find it hard to believe that anyone raised in a western nation post 9/11 could see the Empire as anything but villains after they attacked a civilian target in an attempt to punish a military organization and effect political change through terror.

 

 

do you understand the principles of warfare and "will"?

 

 

Do you understand the principles of the rules of war and war crimes?

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Uh, a fascist dictatorship? You may want to qualify that statement, because right now, without any supporting arguments, you're coming off a little ridiculous.

 

 

If he's right, I wouldn't expect a reply any time soon. ;)

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